More Dissident-Republican Activity

[pintsofguinness]

firstly, i wish a speedy recovery to the officer injured and wholeheartedly condemn those who did it, they represent no one...

As for this debate regarding attacks on police during the troubles and attacks nowadays, jees its like black and white.
How are SF hyprocites if they fully support the police now? As you all know during the troubles they were quite opposed to the RUC and with good reason too. The actions of the RUC were downright disgraceful and they were responsible for so much turmoil including collusion with paramilitaries and murder, put simply they were not an acceptable police force. the PSNI whilst not perfect do not engage in such activity.

We are talking about tactics (not the small mint flavoured sweets) and the fact remains that if it was wrong in the 70s and 80s, it is wrong today. You are guilty of generalising in that the RUC was, according to your own logic, one worthy and legitimate target. Catholic, Protestant, male, female etc, all up to their necks in the "conspiracy" and therefore deserving of what they got. So it was okay to shoot and bomb all police prior to 1994, but things are okay now.

that's not a fact, that's your opinion

[Hurler on the Bitch]

firstly, i wish a speedy recovery to the officer injured and wholeheartedly condemn those who did it, they represent no one...

As for this debate regarding attacks on police during the troubles and attacks nowadays, jees its like black and white.
How are SF hyprocites if they fully support the police now? As you all know during the troubles they were quite opposed to the RUC and with good reason too. The actions of the RUC were downright disgraceful and they were responsible for so much turmoil including collusion with paramilitaries and murder, put simply they were not an acceptable police force. the PSNI whilst not perfect do not engage in such activity.

We are talking about tactics (not the small mint flavoured sweets) and the fact remains that if it was wrong in the 70s and 80s, it is wrong today. You are guilty of generalising in that the RUC was, according to your own logic, one worthy and legitimate target. Catholic, Protestant, male, female etc, all up to their necks in the "conspiracy" and therefore deserving of what they got. So it was okay to shoot and bomb all police prior to 1994, but things are okay now.

that's not a fact, that's your opinion

My use of the words "if it was" puts the statement in the hypothetical. Thus, not my view and merely putting the sentence in historical context. Devil's Advocate - not opinion!

[pintsofguinness]

sorry, missed "if".

[boojangles]

If they condemn the attacks now orangeman then yeah they're hypocrites, it was fine when the PIRA were killing people.

Things evolve and change. What happened before and took off in 1969 was against a backround of inequality and total oppresion of nationalists. While it is not  a perfect world, it can hardly be said that conditions are now the same or that the only recourse is armed insurrection. Maybe the ceasefire should have come before 1994 but what were nationalsits to do before that, lie down and be trampled underfoot by Unionist supremacy... no jobs, no rights, housing etc... and when they protested were battered off the streets.
Different times called for different actions...

Totally agree. The f**k wits involved in Fridays act wouldn't know what oppression,inequality or human rights are. Call me a hypocrite all ya want but there is no way anybody can compare what happened on Friday to what was happening back in the 60's or 70's.
Expecting the full brunt of EG/Myles etc I firmly believe that relative peace on this island would never have been achieved without the armed struggle,like it or not, I think thats a fact.

What about what happened in the 80s and 90s?

Im not getting into a big debate because these things have been debated to death many times.I will stand by what I said and Im definitely not the only one.
Maguire-Remember that Maggie Thatcher was in power in Britain in the 80's,definitely not a friend of the Nationalist people.. By the 90's there was little support for the armed struggle as things were beginning to turn and people were fed up with violence.
People painting the whole issue of the armed struggle as a black and white issue thats only aim was a United Ireland are blinkered and narrow minded IMO.

ps: Let me also wish the injured police officer a speedy recovery.

[windyshepardhenderson]

firstly, i wish a speedy recovery to the officer injured and wholeheartedly condemn those who did it, they represent no one...

As for this debate regarding attacks on police during the troubles and attacks nowadays, jees its like black and white.
How are SF hyprocites if they fully support the police now? As you all know during the troubles they were quite opposed to the RUC and with good reason too. The actions of the RUC were downright disgraceful and they were responsible for so much turmoil including collusion with paramilitaries and murder, put simply they were not an acceptable police force. the PSNI whilst not perfect do not engage in such activity.

We are talking about tactics (not the small mint flavoured sweets) and the fact remains that if it was wrong in the 70s and 80s, it is wrong today. You are guilty of generalising in that the RUC was, according to your own logic, one worthy and legitimate target. Catholic, Protestant, male, female etc, all up to their necks in the "conspiracy" and therefore deserving of what they got. So it was okay to shoot and bomb all police prior to 1994, but things are okay now.

I'm not generalising i'm stating the perspective that many republicans held during that time. All killing is wrong, lets not beat about the bush on that one.. (sure if it was up to me no one would have died in the troubles,but its not that easy). The fact is the RUC were (for the most part) downright disgraceful, the fact that we now have the PSNI would suggest to a certain degree acknowledgement that the RUC was not an acceptable police force for anyone. I would also go as far to say that the political climate in the 70s/80s/early 90s is somewhat different to the one which we are now in and would go some way in explaining as to why SF condemn these attacks by dissidents

[Hurler on the Bitch]

Look lads. This argument has been exhausted. Perhaps we should remember that an officer is fighting for his life and save the whatabouteries for another time.

HOTB

[trileacman]

As someone who hasn't taken sides in this one yet can I say that most of the sentiment expressed so far is much the same and the only wrong assumption made is that it is as clear as "black and white". History and, from experience, Irish History is never "black and white".

The debate is centering on the justification of criminal actions and I suppose there is no right or wrong here and not alot that can be changed or proven. Your viewpoint on the issues is based upon how much weight you put on the concept of "just war", emotionally charged conflict and an acceptable level of retribution.

[trileacman]

violence can never be justified when it can achieve absolutely nothing, that is the case in ni today. that may or may not have been the case in the past

The perpetrators of this action would consider it an "achievement" if violence would topple the NI assembly. The violence may someday do so, we don't know. Hence any act of violence will "achieve" something if the perpetrator has an aim in mind before committing it. What the majority would consider a catastrophe may be considered an achievement by some.

[Hurler on the Bitch]

violence can never be justified when it can achieve absolutely nothing, that is the case in ni today. that may or may not have been the case in the past

The perpetrators of this action would consider it an "achievement" if violence would topple the NI assembly. The violence may someday do so, we don't know. Hence any act of violence will "achieve" something if the perpetrator has an aim in mind before committing it. What the majority would consider a catastrophe may be considered an achievement by some.

Sorry, did you not read my previous post? Or are your brains in your arse? I am beginning to think that it is actually you in that picture of yours!

[Miss Doubtfire]

What the majority would consider a catastrophe may be considered an achievement by some.
[/quote]

I think we are all aware that some imbeciles may see it like this. But it's not something any of us want to discuss!

[passedit]

For those interested, Peadar came through a major operation this evening and things are looking slightly more positive.

[Denn Forever]

Glad to hear that.

[orangeman]

violence can never be justified when it can achieve absolutely nothing, that is the case in ni today. that may or may not have been the case in the past

The IRA were told in the 70s, 80s and 90's that their violence would achieve nothing but it didn't stop them.


The so called dissidents are being told the exact same thing today and it probably won't stop them.

[longrunsthefox]

If they condemn the attacks now orangeman then yeah they're hypocrites, it was fine when the PIRA were killing people.

Things evolve and change. What happened before and took off in 1969 was against a backround of inequality and total oppresion of nationalists. While it is not  a perfect world, it can hardly be said that conditions are now the same or that the only recourse is armed insurrection. Maybe the ceasefire should have come before 1994 but what were nationalsits to do before that, lie down and be trampled underfoot by Unionist supremacy... no jobs, no rights, housing etc... and when they protested were battered off the streets.
Different times called for different actions...

Jesus Christ! - did you get that from "The ABSOLUTE Beginners' Guide to Irish Politics"? There is nobody from the Nationalist community - and increasingly few from a Unionist perspective - who will argue against the existence of institutionalised discrimination, but hold on! I think that the Brits and the Orange State got the message about 1973. PS - getting "battered of the streets" did call for radical tactics, but when it meant targeting off-duty RUC officers in front of their kids etc, then a bit of thought was called for. The sectarian state of Northern Ireland was bad; but, perhaps, some of the methods used to destroy it were worse. The high moral ground in Northern Ireland my friend is now a very crowded piece of land.

For starters I aren't your friend... you really think the Brits/Orange state (same thing...rem collusion  ) got the message in 1973... wat age are you? 21?  I ain't justifying everything the Provos did, I'm saying  something that could be justified in one era may be a lot harder to justify it now. Anyway, you protest too much whatever your baggage is.

I am not your friend either. So nah, na, ne, nah nah!!!

(a) So, IRA man booby-traps RUC car in 1970s and kills officer all in the name of a United Ireland and that was ALRIGHT - considering what they (the Brits) put us through! and (b) Militant republican booby-traps PSNI car in 2010 and maims officer all in the name of a United Ireland and that is BAD? because the Brits are ok now! (keep us in community-based jobs)   .. The fact is that (a) was roundly condemned back then as "f**k wits who wouldn't know what oppression, inequality or human rights are" ... especially by constitutional Nationalists. Today, those involved in (b) are condemned by mainstream republicans as "f**k wits who wouldn't know what oppression, inequality or human rights are" .. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Either the past is something that is being view through rose-tinted spectacles or, Heaven forbid, we are all members of the SDLP / Workers Party now?

ps - no agenda, just Devil's Advocate - a bit of debate on the past is not a bad thing.

WTF is that all about? Jees! I can't make haed or tail of all that shite... don't even know if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. 

[orangeman]

Conor Mc Sherry from St Brigids on Talkback now talking about Peadar.