Quinn Insurance in Administration

[Maiden1]

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/vhi-gets-two-more-years-to-build-up-reserves-2184763.html


HEALTH insurer VHI was given an advantage over its competitors last night when it was granted another two years to build up its financial reserves.

Health Minister Mary Harney said the state-owned company was to be given until the beginning of 2012 to come up with sufficient reserves to meet its solvency requirements.

The revelation comes in the wake of more than 900 job losses at rival insurer, Quinn Insurance, as part of a restructuring plan to address the company's insolvency issues.

Ms Harney revealed she was again postponing the date for the VHI to meet requirements.

The postponement is the latest in a long line of postponements since 1999, and enables the VHI to continue to benefit from a derogation, first granted in 1973, from the full rigours of regulation.


That's 1999 not 2009.  VHI get given more time and QD get the book thrown at them.

[sammymaguire]

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/vhi-gets-two-more-years-to-build-up-reserves-2184763.html


HEALTH insurer VHI was given an advantage over its competitors last night when it was granted another two years to build up its financial reserves.

Health Minister Mary Harney said the state-owned company was to be given until the beginning of 2012 to come up with sufficient reserves to meet its solvency requirements.

The revelation comes in the wake of more than 900 job losses at rival insurer, Quinn Insurance, as part of a restructuring plan to address the company's insolvency issues.

Ms Harney revealed she was again postponing the date for the VHI to meet requirements.

The postponement is the latest in a long line of postponements since 1999, and enables the VHI to continue to benefit from a derogation, first granted in 1973, from the full rigours of regulation.


That's 1999 not 2009.  VHI get given more time and QD get the book thrown at them.

this should cause outrage and QD should be taking legal action against the government on this ruling

http://www.sbpost.ie/newsfeatures/boardroom-unhealthy-financial-truths-and-the-vhi-issue-49402.html    

VHI now has until January 2012 to meet the full capitalisation requirements which would be needed to bring it under the umbrella of the Financial Regulator

As reported here last week, one option under discussion is to inject between €60 million and €100 million into VHI in the short term

[dublinfella]

Are you serious??? Did you not read my post above? QD had already sent plans into the regulator explaining how they were planning to meet the ratio by the end of 2010.

And then promptly broke the plans by fecking €400m of solvency funds for the rest of the company. THAT is the problem.

VHI have been given plans and have constantly broke these. Resulting in the deadline being pushed back on a number of occasions. The last one being 2012. And what's more QD had a better ratio than VHI.

But they were up front with the FR and never tried to hide issues from them. Thats key.

very telling is it?? 
The record fine was disputed at the time by QD as being excessive given the fact there was never a risk to policyholders, as admitted after by the regulator.

Source?

Seriously are you not following this? VHI broke the rules by not meeting the solvency deadline that they were given by the regulator. However these rules were relaxed in their case to allow more time to reach these deadlines

so i think it's fair enough to compare the two cases.

If the VHI took client money and used it to stem their chairmans gambling losses, then yes, there would be a comparison. When that happens, come back to me.

Can you send me a link on this? Have to say first I've heard of this?

Which bit?

Not irrelevant.  What you seem to be forgetting is that VHI are breaking the law also by not meeting the requirement set by the requlator as were QD. So again could you answer why VHI were allowed time to meet solvency and QD weren't?

[dublinfella]

this should cause outrage and QD should be taking legal action against the government on this ruling

http://www.sbpost.ie/newsfeatures/boardroom-unhealthy-financial-truths-and-the-vhi-issue-49402.html    

VHI now has until January 2012 to meet the full capitalisation requirements which would be needed to bring it under the umbrella of the Financial Regulator

As reported here last week, one option under discussion is to inject between €60 million and €100 million into VHI in the short term

Its not that simple VHI lost a lot of profitible customers to BUPA and have struggled with the risk equalisation. They have been given time to sort it all out.

Quinn hid illegal transactions from the regulator.

Why are we comparing the two issues?

[tyronefan]

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/vhi-gets-two-more-years-to-build-up-reserves-2184763.html


HEALTH insurer VHI was given an advantage over its competitors last night when it was granted another two years to build up its financial reserves.

Health Minister Mary Harney said the state-owned company was to be given until the beginning of 2012 to come up with sufficient reserves to meet its solvency requirements.

The revelation comes in the wake of more than 900 job losses at rival insurer, Quinn Insurance, as part of a restructuring plan to address the company's insolvency issues.

Ms Harney revealed she was again postponing the date for the VHI to meet requirements.

The postponement is the latest in a long line of postponements since 1999, and enables the VHI to continue to benefit from a derogation, first granted in 1973, from the full rigours of regulation.


That's 1999 not 2009.  VHI get given more time and QD get the book thrown at them.

this should cause outrage and QD should be taking legal action against the government on this ruling

http://www.sbpost.ie/newsfeatures/boardroom-unhealthy-financial-truths-and-the-vhi-issue-49402.html    

VHI now has until January 2012 to meet the full capitalisation requirements which would be needed to bring it under the umbrella of the Financial Regulator

As reported here last week, one option under discussion is to inject between €60 million and €100 million into VHI in the short term

was the option of the government injecting cash into QD discussed but the government said at the time that they were not allow to do it because of European law.

Does Europe have a different law for QD than it does for VHI

[supersarsfields]

The sourse I want is in relation to

^{They didn't pay out on claims in time and money that other insurers had to keep as collateral was invested or recorded as profit.}

And the sourse you want with regards to the Regulator saying there was no risk to policy holders is

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7689642.stm

<sub>Quinn insurance firm in huge fine 

Mr Quinn said he accepted he had made mistakes
A company owned by one of Ireland's richest businessmen has been fined a record 3.25m euro by the Republic of Ireland's financial watchdog.

County Fermanagh businessman Sean Quinn has stepped down as chairman of Quinn Insurance following an investigation.

The Financial Regulator said it had "reasonable cause" to suspect breaches of regulatory requirements.

Personally fining Mr Quinn 200,000 euro, it said the firm had fully co-operated and the matter was now closed.

In a statement, the Financial Regulator said the suspected breaches related to contraventions by Quinn Insurance of "obligations under the Insurance Acts and Regulations, including failure to notify the Financial Regulator prior to providing loans to related companies".

 
It added that policyholders at the firm had not been affected.

In a statement, Sean Quinn said the company "had made loans to a related company which amounted to €288m in May 2008 when the accounts were finalised.

"These loans breached insurance regulations and as a result of this the Financial Regulator has sanctioned Quinn Insurance and myself. I accept complete responsibility for this breach of regulation.

"While I accept that I made mistakes, I feel that the levels of fines do not reflect the fact that there was no risk to policyholders or the taxpayer but are a result of the pressures existing in the current environment. However, we will pay the fines and move on."

Mr Quinn said he would continue as chairman of Quinn Group.

Last year, the Quinn Group made profits of 433m euros - an increase of nearly a third on 2006. It also bought the health insurer BUPA Ireland.

Mr Quinn and his wife and children own the companies outright and are believed to have amassed a personal fortune of nearly 4bn euro.

The Quinn Group employs more than 5,000 people throughout the world and have recently expanded into India and Russia.

Mr Quinn began in business in 1973 at a small gravel pit on the family farm in Derrylin, County Fermanagh.</sub>





You go on about VHI losing customers to BUPA and getting time to sort it out? Why? Why do they get time to sort out their solvency ratios when QD didn't? Why do they get the deadline extended and extended with no action against them apart from cash injections provided by the state.

You keep going on about QD using profiits to finance other companies. There's nothing wrong with that as long as it doesn't breach the solvency ratio. It's the solvency issue that put QD into admin. Are you really not following this? VHI have worse solvency than QD yet are being given time to sort it out.

Also QG weren't moving money. They were using QD assets as guarattees against other QG companies. QD's point is that these would never have been called in by QG. (Breaking the law yes, but not threatening QD policy holders)

[dublinfella]

was the option of the government injecting cash into QD discussed but the government said at the time that they were not allow to do it because of European law.

Does Europe have a different law for QD than it does for VHI

I would assume so because VHI is the state owned former monoply and it was the trade off for risk equalisation.

QD is a private concern that entered the market and took the younger, profitable customers causing the solvency/cashflow issues for VHI. QD's solvency issues were simply because they didn't want to 'leave' money there that could be put to work elsewhere. Like throwing down the jacks chasing Anglo CFDs.

[dublinfella]

You go on about VHI losing customers to BUPA and getting time to sort it out? Why? Why do they get time to sort out their solvency ratios when QD didn't? Why do they get the deadline extended and extended with no action against them apart from cash injections provided by the state.

Because the solvency issues in VHI were as a result of deragulation and the risk equalisation policy. QD's issues were a company policy - they had the money.

You keep going on about QD using profiits to finance other companies. There's nothing wrong with that as long as it doesn't breach the solvency ratio. It's the solvency issue that put QD into admin. Are you really not following this? VHI have worse solvency than QD yet are being given time to sort it out.

But if the profits are actually supposed to be held for solvency, it is a problem.

Also QG weren't moving money. They were using QD assets as guarattees against other QG companies. QD's point is that these would never have been called in by QG. (Breaking the law yes, but not threatening QD policy holders)

So you admit they broke the law, but object to the state pulling them on it?

Bizarre.

[sammymaguire]

no objection on the state pulling them on it, they were given a record fine and accepted this but this should have been the end of it not run a hugely profitable IRISH owned company into the ground because it was making a mockery of all state-owned or semi-state-owned run businesses 

[supersarsfields]

^{Because the solvency issues in VHI were as a result of deragulation and the risk equalisation policy. QD's issues were a company policy - they had the money.}


It doesn't matter. VHI were given deadlines and warnings about what would happen if they didn't make the deadlines. They when they failed to meet that deadline they were given another one and the warnings were shown to be BS.

^{But if the profits are actually supposed to be held for solvency, it is a problem.}


I completely agree. It's called a solvency problem. One that VHI had aswell.


<sup>So you admit they broke the law, but object to the state pulling them on it?

Bizarre.</sup>

I never argued that they didn't break the law. my argument with you was with regards to you thinking that the regulator had no other option and that it was all SQ's fault. I've never said that QD were blameless in this, far from it. But it could and should have been dealt with differently. That fault is with the Regulator, Administrator and the Irish Government. QD weren't that far of solvency that it was actually causing a risk. In most other countries he would have been over solvency by 18%. and was on line to get up to the actual rate within the year.

Did you get any joy with that link because I actually think it's BS?

[dublinfella]

no objection on the state pulling them on it, they were given a record fine and accepted this but this should have been the end of it not run a hugely profitable IRISH owned company into the ground because it was making a mockery of all state-owned or semi-state-owned run businesses 

Get real. If the state wanted to protect VHI they would have never opened the market. Thats at least your third conspiracy on this so far.

This is about the misuse of solvency funds. Simple as that. 

[dublinfella]

It doesn't matter. VHI were given deadlines and warnings about what would happen if they didn't make the deadlines. They when they failed to meet that deadline they were given another one and the warnings were shown to be BS.


I completely agree. It's called a solvency problem. One that VHI had aswell.

Different problem, different context, different response.

I never argued that they didn't break the law. my argument with you was with regards to you thinking that the regulator had no other option and that it was all SQ's fault. I've never said that QD were blameless in this, far from it. But it could and should have been dealt with differently. That fault is with the Regulator, Administrator and the Irish Government. QD weren't that far of solvency that it was actually causing a risk. In most other countries he would have been over solvency by 18%. and was on line to get up to the actual rate within the year.

So what are you arguing. Another fine and wait until the risk was critical to act?

Did you get any joy with that link because I actually think it's BS?

Link to what? That QD delay as long as possible paying claims or that they were moving money around illegally?

[sammymaguire]

You keep rattling on about solvency funds when you have been told repeatedly that they were within EU guidelines and would have been ahead of VHI without breaking any rules by the end of this year.

SQ and SQ Group made mistakes, huge mistakes, these were dealt with and accepted. €3.25m into the coffers of the government for misuse of company funds. In 2007, Quinn Group made profits of €433m

The FReg then decided to go in full smack with the size 12's without any objection from the government as the politicians stood idly by when there could have been countless options available to deal with this SOLVENCY issue in so many other ways.

Farcical. I'm getting bored of this debate. If it was in Dublin, you'd be up in arms not doubt.

[supersarsfields]

_{Different problem, different context, different response.}


Ok we're not going to agree on this as I believe same problem, different response.

^{So what are you arguing. Another fine and wait until the risk was critical to act?}


If needs be. It would kinda be like another deadline passed for VHI if you like. The risk was never critical, as pointed out it would have passed in most EU countries and was on the rise. Unlike VHI. whatever was better than the alternative wjhich is the mess they've created now. Even putting in Administrators before the cutting of of markets ( As should have been done by the regulator) and allowing them to see were the problems are. There were a few options opened but again he took the drastic step that made sure it was noticed across the water.


^{Link to what? That QD delay as long as possible paying claims or that they were moving money around illegally?}

Yes you see I think your a liar on this one. If anything QD are renown for their settling of claims quickly. So I actually think you've pulled this out of your ass, hoping it wouldn't be noticed, unless you can give me a link that might back that up?

[dublinfella]

You keep rattling on about solvency funds when you have been told repeatedly that they were within EU guidelines and would have been ahead of VHI without breaking any rules by the end of this year.

The issue is the removal of solvency under the table and you know it.

SQ and SQ Group made mistakes, huge mistakes, these were dealt with and accepted. €3.25m into the coffers of the government for misuse of company funds. In 2007, Quinn Group made profits of €433m

So what? We are talking about the insurance arm.

The FReg then decided to go in full smack with the size 12's without any objection from the government as the politicians stood idly by when there could have been countless options available to deal with this SOLVENCY issue in so many other ways.

Its not a solvency issue. Its a fraud issue.

Farcical. I'm getting bored of this debate. If it was in Dublin, you'd be up in arms not doubt.

No, I have no time for that sort of parochial gombeenism. the law is the law regardless of what local idiots Quinn got out to protest on his behalf with a view to getting a pass for himself.