Quinn Insurance in Administration

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

None of those people are likely to cost the taxpayer billions.

So why didn't the Government let Anglo fail, since it patently is of no systemic value to the Irish economy (despite what the FF'ers parrot incessantly).

Then it wouldn't cost the taxpayer anything like the billions we're currently shelling out for that wreck of a betting-shop, and whoever would fall as a result would fall (without the current haemorrhaging of taxpayers' funds).

[muppet]

None of those people are likely to cost the taxpayer billions.

So why didn't the Government let Anglo fail, since it patently is of no systemic value to the Irish economy (despite what the FF'ers parrot incessantly).

Then it wouldn't cost the taxpayer anything like the billions we're currently shelling out for that wreck of a betting-shop, and whoever would fall as a result would fall (without the current haemorrhaging of taxpayers' funds).

They can't let if fail thanks to the bank guarantee. The 'cheapest bailout in history' meant the State guaranteed all of the liabilities of our banks, including Anglo. Because of that some or all of the Quinn group could end up under State ownership.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

They can't let if fail thanks to the bank guarantee. The 'cheapest bailout in history' meant the State guaranteed all of the liabilities of our banks, including Anglo. Because of that some or all of the Quinn group could end up under State ownership.

But the bank guarantee has a ceiling of €100,000, doesn't it? So the reality is that since the vast majority of Anglo's loans are commerical-property loans, it would be the developers who would suffer, not your common-or-garden depositor. Therefore it's not sytstemically important, therefore the cheapest option would have been to let it go, but of course they couldn't let it go since all their cronies' monies were tied up in it.

And so what if Quinn ended up in State ownership? Would that not be preferable to knobbling the trading capacity of Quinn through the offices of the Regulator?

[muppet]

They can't let if fail thanks to the bank guarantee. The 'cheapest bailout in history' meant the State guaranteed all of the liabilities of our banks, including Anglo. Because of that some or all of the Quinn group could end up under State ownership.

But the bank guarantee has a ceiling of €100,000, doesn't it? So the reality is that since the vast majority of Anglo's loans are commerical-property loans, it would be the developers who would suffer, not your common-or-garden depositor. Therefore it's not sytstemically important, therefore the cheapest option would have been to let it go, but of course they couldn't let it go since all their cronies' monies were tied up in it.

And so what if Quinn ended up in State ownership? Would that not be preferable to knobbling the trading capacity of Quinn through the offices of the Regulator?

If Quinn ends up in State ownership the jobs would probably be safe.

As for the guarantee, you are talking about deposits. The State guaranteed everything notably the bonds used by Anglo etc to raise money to lend out to developers, house buyers and other such safe transaction.

[Bogball XV]

They can't let if fail thanks to the bank guarantee. The 'cheapest bailout in history' meant the State guaranteed all of the liabilities of our banks, including Anglo. Because of that some or all of the Quinn group could end up under State ownership.

But the bank guarantee has a ceiling of €100,000, doesn't it? So the reality is that since the vast majority of Anglo's loans are commerical-property loans, it would be the developers who would suffer, not your common-or-garden depositor. Therefore it's not sytstemically important, therefore the cheapest option would have been to let it go, but of course they couldn't let it go since all their cronies' monies were tied up in it.

And so what if Quinn ended up in State ownership? Would that not be preferable to knobbling the trading capacity of Quinn through the offices of the Regulator?

No, around about the end of sept 08, Lenno increased the deposit guarantee to 100K from 22K, this didn't really help matters, in his wisdom (and with the unminuted and unnoted help and advice of some bankers) it was decided to completely guarantee everything both deposits and loans given to and taken by the indigenous banks, thus if anglo were to have been let go at any point after that, the irish state would be liable for all borrowings undertaken by anglo, as these would undoubtedly dwarf the collectible monies we'd owe the difference.

Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?

Quinn is in a position to repay his loans to Anglo, is he not? He has said he will pay back every penny. He has taken many risks like most successful businessmen, moving from cement to Insulation to insurance to bottle factories to hotels. He has always succeeded and when one gamble goes wrong we all want the boot put in. This is a man with a proven track record of starting successful businesses in a part of Ireland that as always been totally ignored by the politicans from North and South, what does Ireland stand to gain from bankrupting him instead of giving him a chance to pay what he owes.

he's not in a position to repay his loans to anglo without some form of restructuring of the debt and the group, as i say the problem isn't the successful businesses, its that there appear to be very few controls, this is par for the course in a group like Quinn, but he has jeopardised the future of the group

There are plenty of people in Ireland at the moment restructuring loans on their houses cos they have over borrowed, lost their jobs and /or are in negative equity. Should they too have their houses taken from them.

to be perfectly honest, i wouldn't disagree if their houses were to be taken from them - there has to be accountability and responsibility for one's actions too you know.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

So it's too late to let Anglo fail now then?

€10 Billion this week, and probably the same and more in the months ahead, multiple times... I'd still say it's cheaper to let it go, it has that bottomless pit characteristic about it.

[Bogball XV]

So it's too late to let Anglo fail now then?

€10 Billion this week, and probably the same and more in the months ahead, multiple times... I'd still say it's cheaper to let it go, it has that bottomless pit characteristic about it.

maybe, thing is we have to pay whatever is owing anyway, the state can't default on it's guarantee - we wouldn't be allowed to for a start (IMF, Merkel, German Invasion.....)

[muppet]

So it's too late to let Anglo fail now then?

€10 Billion this week, and probably the same and more in the months ahead, multiple times... I'd still say it's cheaper to let it go, it has that bottomless pit characteristic about it.

I must say I always liked Alan Dukes but I find it annoying listening him saying that it is too expensive to close Anglo.

What he is really saying is 'the politicians, bankers and regulators have screwed up so badly that I am going to take billions off you all to fix it.' No more than the church a little humility wouldn't go amiss.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

So it's too late to let Anglo fail now then?

€10 Billion this week, and probably the same and more in the months ahead, multiple times... I'd still say it's cheaper to let it go, it has that bottomless pit characteristic about it.

maybe, thing is we have to pay whatever is owing anyway, the state can't default on it's guarantee - we wouldn't be allowed to for a start (IMF, Merkel, German Invasion.....)

Not Merkel & the Germans BBXV -- their disaffection with the 'European Project' is all too evident with the free-falling of the Euro at the minute (if they weren't going to underwrite Greece, that being the first test of their commitment, they weren't going to be too worried about the smaller Irish economy).

The first tranche of NAMA conversions this past week has only taken 20% of the outstanding toxic debt -- the 'most valuable' of the toxins, with 80% still to be transferred. The much-trumpeted 47% discount on the loans is a smoke-trick -- commercial property values have fallen between 50% and 90% in the last 3 years, so how could they go lower on any of the transferred commerical debts? This is very much the thin-edge of the wedge, we're going to be thumped in the months ahead, with the concomitant (massive) rises in tax that will accompany that (correction).

[Pangurban]

What about the fact that the Bondholders in Anglo include Irish Pension Funds, Credit Unions etc. Could this not be a valid reason for temporarily at least propping it up. Not to do so could be catostrophic

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

What about the fact that the Bondholders in Anglo include Irish Pension Funds, Credit Unions etc. Could this not be a valid reason for temporarily at least propping it up. Not to do so could be catostrophic

That all depends on whether you think that those who dabble in the markets (bondholders included) deserve any protection from the taxpayer. I don't (as someone who has pension payments tied up in bonds -- tough for me). Your definition of catastrophic would differ from mine somewhat Pangurban.

[Main Street]

If QD is as profitable as claimed then there is a need for invvestigation.  We have just passed through one of the worst winters of recent times and households have suffered from flood, frost, etc and every insurance company is struggling to cover all of the claims.  Many such companies depend on investments in the markets to raise funds, etc and that route has been removed by the crunch.  The market view is that the Irsih insurance market is not profitable.

Generally Insurance companies should invest most of their reserves safely in Government bonds. These investments should be regulated by the State. Not so with Quinn Direct and the Irish regulations,, afaiu QD profits were affected, not by increased claims but by bad unsafe investment losses of the cash reserves it holds to cover claims.

[Bogball XV]

Not Merkel & the Germans BBXV -- their disaffection with the 'European Project' is all too evident with the free-falling of the Euro at the minute (if they weren't going to underwrite Greece, that being the first test of their commitment, they weren't going to be too worried about the smaller Irish economy).

The first tranche of NAMA conversions this past week has only taken 20% of the outstanding toxic debt -- the 'most valuable' of the toxins, with 80% still to be transferred. The much-trumpeted 47% discount on the loans is a smoke-trick -- commercial property values have fallen between 50% and 90% in the last 3 years, so how could they go lower on any of the transferred commerical debts? This is very much the thin-edge of the wedge, we're going to be thumped in the months ahead, with the concomitant (massive) rises in tax that will accompany that (correction).

I'm not saying that gerry would ride to the rescue, quite the opposite, I'd say because of the german dissatisfaction, that we've absolutely no choice on the matter of defaulting on the guarantee as this would plunge the euro into chaos and gerry is fed up with that, and we don't want to make him angry

[Declan]

Gene Kerrigan: Citizens lose wealth, wealthy cretins gain

By Gene Kerrigan
Sunday April 04 2010
IF WAYNE Rooney recovers sufficiently from his injury to play for Tottenham Hotspur in the World Cup in South America, how many tries do you reckon he'll score in the first innings?

The question occurred to me last week while considering the thought processes of such major political figures as Eamon Ryan, Finian McGrath and Ned O'Keeffe. Not to mention RTE and the trade union bosses.

The bank bailout is a gargantuan issue, affecting generations. Even those of us used to political monkey business are taken aback by the ease with which the Government gets away with obvious claptrap as an excuse for diverting tens of billions in public money to private use.

Billions are being pumped into Anglo Irish, the banking arm of Fianna Fail's builder wing. It started at €4bn and it's heading to €22bn, with an assurance that it will rise further — be it €40bn or €80bn, whatever Alan Dukes and the other successors to Seanie FitzPatrick demand.

(As usual, when discussing matters of higher economics, this columnist should make it clear that he lacks training in the finer points of debtequity swaps. Unlike such geniuses as Brian Cowen and Alan Dukes, I'm forever mixing up my LTEV with my LTV ratios. In short, I don't know much about economics, but I know when my throat is being cut.)

Eamon Ryan, Minister for Making Meaningless Noises, is an important figure in the current crisis.

Whether it's the bank bailout or the right of Willie O'Dea to blackguard political opponents, Eamon steps up to argue the case.

As he explains how wonderful his Government is, Eamon usually tilts his head to one side and puts on his patronising halfsmile.

He knows we're frightened and suspicious — but he forgives us, the little people. And he'll explain the world to us if we'll just shut our goddamn mouths and do as we're goddamn told.

Last weekend, academic economists got their knickers in knots when Eamon explained how we would probably "have to leave the euro" without the bank bailout. "It's not easy, it's not palatable, but that's the choice you're faced with." When asked about alternatives to Nama, he bullied: "Do you think we should leave the euro?"

Now, leaving the euro would be a massive step — involving setting up a whole new currency. It would be so drastic as to make almost any other course seem safer.

(Besides, is there any combination of the current parties you'd trust to attempt such a gigantic and dangerous project?) Ipso facto — accept the goddamn bank bailout, as arranged by your betters, and shut the hell up.

What troubled the academic economists was that Eamon's view of the bailout ("accept it or leave the euro") didn't make sense. "Without foundation," said Karl Whelan of UCD. "The consistent evidence that senior ministers do not understand the banking situation is extremely worrying."

Brian Lucey of TCD: "Either extremely misleading politics, or a deep, dangerous misunderstanding of almost everything."

When Eamon Ryan explains how we must accept the bailout or leave the euro, it makes as much sense as wondering aloud if Trapattoni will guide Wayne Rooney's cue to make a 147 break in the upcoming Euro Handball Steeplechase.

When an issue is of huge importance, yet is so technical as to be next to incomprehensible to the lay person, a Government minister using such bullying tactics is contemptible. But it fits into the "say anything" culture of this Government. Frighten the punters with comparisons to Iceland.

Shut down discussion by claiming it's the only game in town, while your media cheerleaders parrot, "There is no alternative." Throw around unsubstantiated figures until puzzled journalists habitually report those figures as fact.

Mislead, mislead, mislead. Here's Brian Lenihan: "I am firmly of the view that Ireland cannot contemplate a default."

Memo to Mr Lenihan: Hard to believe, I know, but Anglo is not Ireland. Again: "We can't go around repudiating our debts." No one wants the State to repudiate our debts, but these are not "our debts". They are the debts of private entities — banks, builder investors — who engaged in massive gambling games, and lost.

Memo to RTE reporters: stop referring to "our banks". They are not our banks, they belong to private outfits. Even nationalised Anglo is not "our bank" — it's run by a private coterie of highly paid managers who will do whatever benefits the bank, regardless of its effects on the citizens.

And, by the way, bank economists and stockbrokers are not independent analysts. Politicians? Fine Gael is so brazenly opportunist, maddened by the smell of impending power, constantly searching for the killer soundbite, that its frenetic efforts are woefully unconvincing.

And here's Ned O'Keeffe, Fianna Fail backbencher, on the bailout: "It could create a bigger mess for us than we've ever seen in our life" and might destroy Irish banking. But Ned backs it, anyway. Why? "I'm a member of Fianna Fail and I will vote with the party."

Government supporter Finian McGrath used familiar rhetorical tricks to explain his vote for Nama. "It's the only game in town" — a discredited device used to shut off discussion. "Keeping [Anglo Irish] open costs less" — an unsubstantiated claim by bankers with a vested interest.

Full disclosure: I gave Finian my No 1 preference at the last election. He is a passionate radical — and clearly out of his depth in dealing with the sleight of hand of those using public money to solve private capital's problems.

Anyone doubt that the twin "recapitalisation" and Namafication of Anglo is a transfer of wealth from citizens to wealthy cretins who've screwed up their businesses? Well, read the comment of Moody's, the international ratings agency: "Ireland has put in place an ingenious mechanism."

Moody's is one of the agencies paid by banks and hedge funds to certify that they're credit-worthy.

Moody's happily certified all the lunatic financial gambles that broke the international banking system — and were handsomely paid for it.

Moody's applauds whatever helps wealthy gamblers — therefore it cheerfully endorses the "ingenious mechanism" that pulls the gamblers' chestnuts out of the fire, at the expense of our children's futures.

They see a government long conditioned to genuflecting to banks and builders — overwhelmingly committed to protecting the interests of investors, not the citizenry. And they say, "Good work, lads."

Meanwhile, the fiscal problems must similarly be solved at the expense of the skulls. With great ballyhoo, public service trade union leaders have won a "revolutionary" deal — productivity concessions and service cuts in return for — well, something or other on the never-never.

The media portray the typical trade union boss as a bumpkin version of Che Guevara. In truth, many of them come from the trade union wing of Fianna Fail — most of them love being allowed sit at the top table.

The purpose of the deal on offer is to get them back to that coveted place.

On every front, using threats and promises, a brazen class war has been unleashed against leaderless citizens. And it's all working well, so far.

Anyway, to more serious matters. When swinging his hurley in the away match against the Pittsburgh Steelers, do you reckon Damian Duff will find the going too soft at Punchestown?

Over to you, Eamon.

- Gene Kerrigan

[saffron sam2]

Disappointing and irrelevant interjections from the Cavan and Fermanagh county boards.

Their roles aren't political; competitive inter-county teams would suffice.

Thank feck neither is running any of Sean Quinn's businesses.