USFC 2020 Semi-Final Armagh v Donegal

[Angelo]

Armagh lack real pace in their side, lots of quality forwards but there were occasions when Mogan and Gallagher took off and no Armagh players could live with them.

Will McGeeney stay on? Think that was the last of his 5 year term.

I don't think many could live with those two.
This was his 6th year

Maybe not but I think the lack of pace between Armagh and the top teams in the middle third is probably the biggest gap that is holding them back. If Armagh are to make the next step they need to get some serious runners in that middle third area.

[APM]

Lots of very intemperate stuff on here and on the Orchard site, but a few comments:

Going out of the Ulster Championship on the end of a hammering like that would normally leave you pretty sickened, but in the world of Covid and with the championship being played in November, it leaves you a lot more philosophical. 

Armagh are definitely a few players short of being at Donegal's standard, but whereas you would have expected that to translate to a 5 or 6 point defeat, it translated to a hammering because the stronger players didn't perform anywhere near to the level they are capable of.  Honestly don't believe that Armagh are as bad as they showed on Saturday.  The players seemed to be lacking in confidence and it was like they didn't believe that they could compete.  Once they went 5-2 they panicked, carrying the ball into traffic, taking silly shots and trying killer passes which never came off. It then became a systems breakdown and everything fell apart.  On that basis it would be wrong to single out anyone's performance tempting as it may be.

I wouldn't be for getting rid of McGeeney, not that I think he is going anywhere.  He deserves a shot at keeping them in Division 1.  But he should be changing up his backroom team. Look at the influence Rochford has had in Donegal. They need to hit the reset button after that defeat and a bit of a clear out in terms of mentors and some players would be healthy for a fresh start in 2021. 

If the players didn't know before, they know now what they need to do to compete with Dublin, Donegal and Tyrone.  There will be a long enough lay off before the start of the league, which will probably start later than normal next year which gives them more time to prepare. Some of the most influential players are now late 20s early 30s, but they will be motivated to stick together for a stint in Division 1 and success next year will be staying up. 

[brokencrossbar1]

Lots of very intemperate stuff on here and on the Orchard site, but a few comments:

Going out of the Ulster Championship on the end of a hammering like that would normally leave you pretty sickened, but in the world of Covid and with the championship being played in November, it leaves you a lot more philosophical. 

Armagh are definitely a few players short of being at Donegal's standard, but whereas you would have expected that to translate to a 5 or 6 point defeat, it translated to a hammering because the stronger players didn't perform anywhere near to the level they are capable of.  Honestly don't believe that Armagh are as bad as they showed on Saturday.  The players seemed to be lacking in confidence and it was like they didn't believe that they could compete.  Once they went 5-2 they panicked, carrying the ball into traffic, taking silly shots and trying killer passes which never came off. It then became a systems breakdown and everything fell apart.  On that basis it would be wrong to single out anyone's performance tempting as it may be.

I wouldn't be for getting rid of McGeeney, not that I think he is going anywhere.  He deserves a shot at keeping them in Division 1.  But he should be changing up his backroom team. Look at the influence Rochford has had in Donegal. They need to hit the reset button after that defeat and a bit of a clear out in terms of mentors and some players would be healthy for a fresh start in 2021. 

If the players didn't know before, they know now what they need to do to compete with Dublin, Donegal and Tyrone.  There will be a long enough lay off before the start of the league, which will probably start later than normal next year which gives them more time to prepare. Some of the most influential players are now late 20s early 30s, but they will be motivated to stick together for a stint in Division 1 and success next year will be staying up.

Absolutely spot on. I have been critical of the management in the past but the reality is they  are going  nowhere next season and this has been a strange season to say the least.

Everyone who's talking about getting rid of McGeeney and getting an outside of the county man need to realise that this will cost the guts of £100k a year between a new man and his team. On ye go lads, get your hands in your pockets and back it up.

The reality is that the level of football in the county as a whole is poor. Call a spade a spade and the reality is when Cross dominated on the team I played on and the team the team that did back to back a second time the quality of the other clubs pushed us harder than most teams outside of the county. We have not been as strong in recent years and as a consequence it is 'easier' to win a county. With all due respects to Harps when they won it, Maghery, and the likes of Ballymacnab, Cullyhanna a few years ago and the other teams that are 'challenging' but they are not at the same level as previous Ogs teams, Clans, Dromintee, Mullaghbawn, and evening precious Harps and Maghery teams. As a consequence the overall quality of the players coming through is at a lower level. For Armagh to be pushing on to Division 1 is an excellent achievement but there is a huge step up between now and the new season.

To my mind the 3 Cross lads, Forker, Jamie at the latter stages, Grimley and young Turbitt were the only ones who looked like proper county players today. Murnin is made of glass and you wonder whether he has the mentality to cut it and play through the pain, shame as he is very talented. Grugan has the ability but today wasn't his day. The rest of the players were streets off the level required.


Bring in a few new players, here are the ones I have suggest on Orchard forum.

T McConville - Cross Goalie
Steven Morris
Cian McConville
O Hanlon and Higgins from Killeavey
Crealy from Maghery
Heffernan and McCambridge are certainly good enough.

There needs to be a shake up on the line and I would question McCorry double jobbing with Burren. Time and loyalties will be hard to split there. I won't bang the drum about having someone from Cross on the sideline as i don't think it will happen but if you had Tony Mc in like Rochforde in Donegal it could only help.

[yellowcard]

Whilst I didn't expect Armagh to beat Donegal on Saturday, I did expect us to be at least competitive with them. However we were exposed as a mid ranking Division 2 side. It was a reality check. We don't have an abundance of talent coming through the system in recent years, in fact I can't remember the last decent underage side we produced at either minor or U-20/21 level. Armagh club football is probably also at its weakest in a generation. That in itself is very telling, so there is a definite talent deficit in terms of new players coming in. We are as likely to lose a few of our best and more experienced players in the next 2-3 years as we are to gain a couple at the other end of the age spectrum so it is not like we are definitely progressing on an upward curve. It seems to be a step forward followed by a step backwards, rinse and repeat. We don't look remotely capable of beating any of the top sides and we will approach next years division 1 campaign with some degree of trepidation.

As far as the manager is concerned, McGeeney is now managing consecutively at county level for 11 years which is remarkable in itself. He can prepare a team mentally and physically on an individual level with the best of managers. Improving them as footballers and moulding them into a cohesive unit with a clearly defined gameplan is another matter altogether. I think there does come a point where the players need a new voice or a change in direction and 6 years is a long time to spend in a job without any real tangible success. On the other hand a new manager would still have the same problems and I'm not sure there would be a huge clamour for the job. Unless McGeeney steps down I don't really see the county board replacing him but it will be a difficult task for whoever is in charge to both stay in division 1 and try and compete for a provincial title in the next few years. Those are the obvious next steps but we have to be realistic and say that they are as far away as ever.         

[illdecide]

Agree with a lot of what's already been said, v disappointed on Sat and took me a while to digest the manner of that defeat. TBH didn't expect to win but thought we'd have given them a bit of a match. Game was over after 15 mins but the most disappointing thing was how easy we just rolled over for them. A lot of you are correct in saying the standard in Armagh club football is weaker than what it was and hence it's showing at County level but our more experienced players and better players never showed up and looked really poor. Regarding KmcG i dunno tbh...6 years is a long time with out much progression and in his defence he probably has the best players in the County at his disposal so the question you have to ask is he getting the best out of them (probably as i don't see them capable of much more TBH), we're a small County with a league that's not as good as it once was so on that basis what do you want KMcG to do? The flip side of the coin and i agree with BC on this i'd like to see Tony Mac at the helm as no1 and bring in his own staff.

As for Division 1 next season...Wow, it's going to be a tough campaign and if Sat is anything to go by we're in for a torrid time

[tonto1888]

Armagh lack real pace in their side, lots of quality forwards but there were occasions when Mogan and Gallagher took off and no Armagh players could live with them.

Will McGeeney stay on? Think that was the last of his 5 year term.

I don't think many could live with those two.
This was his 6th year

Maybe not but I think the lack of pace between Armagh and the top teams in the middle third is probably the biggest gap that is holding them back. If Armagh are to make the next step they need to get some serious runners in that middle third area.

Certainly don't disagree with that mate

[bannside]

Lads it wouldnt matter who you have in charge. Donegal are a bit ahead of Tyrone, who are a good bit ahead of the rest in Ulster.

Donegal in current form are top 4 material and I expect them to beat Cavan by at least the same margin that they beat you. In fact, it would be no surprise if they topple the Dubs.

Cant see the Donegal Tyrone dominance ending any time soon. £100k could be put to better use for the next few years if you are chasing an anglo celt, never mind a Sam. Thats not having a dig at you, just stating the reality of the current pecking order.

[tonto1888]

Lads it wouldnt matter who you have in charge. Donegal are a bit ahead of Tyrone, who are a good bit ahead of the rest in Ulster.

Donegal in current form are top 4 material and I expect them to beat Cavan by at least the same margin that they beat you. In fact, it would be no surprise if they topple the Dubs.

Cant see the Donegal Tyrone dominance ending any time soon. £100k could be put to better use for the next few years if you are chasing an anglo celt, never mind a Sam. Thats not having a dig at you, just stating the reality of the current pecking order.

I agree with you in all that you say. I reckon Donegal will give the Dubs their full of it too and wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if they beat them

[armaghniac]

Actually it is a bit odd that Donegal were not stronger over the years. They are big seaboard county, not so different from Kerry, or Mayo. While Mayo have had a problem getting over the final line, they have been strong over the years. Perhaps Donegal was riddled with soccer.

[yellowcard]

Lads it wouldnt matter who you have in charge. Donegal are a bit ahead of Tyrone, who are a good bit ahead of the rest in Ulster.

Donegal in current form are top 4 material and I expect them to beat Cavan by at least the same margin that they beat you. In fact, it would be no surprise if they topple the Dubs.

Cant see the Donegal Tyrone dominance ending any time soon. £100k could be put to better use for the next few years if you are chasing an anglo celt, never mind a Sam. Thats not having a dig at you, just stating the reality of the current pecking order.

I agree with you in all that you say. I reckon Donegal will give the Dubs their full of it too and wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if they beat them

Would also agree, the 2 most impressive displays in this years championship were both from Donegal I thought. They were excellent in both matches to date and they have serious options off the bench in the forward line. They are no longer as dependant on Murphy and look a better side than the one which won an All Ireland which was based on 'the system' rather than any great flair. Psychologically it is still a barrier for teams to beat Dublin but if Donegal can overcome that (and an empty Cooke Park should help) I think they have every chance. That match will decide the All Ireland winners this year.

[J70]

Actually it is a bit odd that Donegal were not stronger over the years. They are big seaboard county, not so different from Kerry, or Mayo. While Mayo have had a problem getting over the final line, they have been strong over the years. Perhaps Donegal was riddled with soccer.

Yes, soccer is a huge sport in Donegal.

That said, a lot of people play both. Not sure if it is the case these days, but you used to come across senior county players in Donegal club soccer all the time. Then the likes of Brendan Devenney and even Declan Bonner himself have played for Finn Harps in the League of Ireland. McEniff played LOI back in the day under a fake name! Some players who lined out for the county in their younger years ended up being lost permanently to semi-pro soccer. But that may be the case in more than just Donegal.

Overall though I think, especiallly in the noughties, we had the talent, but not the dedication, discipline or organization to do a lot better than we did.

The minefield that is Ulster probably didn't help either!

[Armamike]

Whilst I didn't expect Armagh to beat Donegal on Saturday, I did expect us to be at least competitive with them. However we were exposed as a mid ranking Division 2 side. It was a reality check. We don't have an abundance of talent coming through the system in recent years, in fact I can't remember the last decent underage side we produced at either minor or U-20/21 level. Armagh club football is probably also at its weakest in a generation. That in itself is very telling, so there is a definite talent deficit in terms of new players coming in. We are as likely to lose a few of our best and more experienced players in the next 2-3 years as we are to gain a couple at the other end of the age spectrum so it is not like we are definitely progressing on an upward curve. It seems to be a step forward followed by a step backwards, rinse and repeat. We don't look remotely capable of beating any of the top sides and we will approach next years division 1 campaign with some degree of trepidation.

As far as the manager is concerned, McGeeney is now managing consecutively at county level for 11 years which is remarkable in itself. He can prepare a team mentally and physically on an individual level with the best of managers. Improving them as footballers and moulding them into a cohesive unit with a clearly defined gameplan is another matter altogether. I think there does come a point where the players need a new voice or a change in direction and 6 years is a long time to spend in a job without any real tangible success. On the other hand a new manager would still have the same problems and I'm not sure there would be a huge clamour for the job. Unless McGeeney steps down I don't really see the county board replacing him but it will be a difficult task for whoever is in charge to both stay in division 1 and try and compete for a provincial title in the next few years. Those are the obvious next steps but we have to be realistic and say that they are as far away as ever.       

Would agree a lot with this, apart from the bit in bold.  You would have to question why we seem to lose concentration in big spells in games and why the discipline in tackling is so poor.  Not just against the better sides.  It's been a hallmark of this team under McGeeney for a while. Our level of physical intensity is questionable too.  I just don't see the level of intensity needed to make much progress. We have a big tendency to mark space rather than attack the ball. In giving up possession we also have a tendency to jump in and give away stupid frees in score able positions.  It doesn't suggest to me that they're focused half the time.  But none of this takes away from the fact that we just don't have enough quality and athleticism in the team.

[seafoid]

Lads it wouldnt matter who you have in charge. Donegal are a bit ahead of Tyrone, who are a good bit ahead of the rest in Ulster.

Donegal in current form are top 4 material and I expect them to beat Cavan by at least the same margin that they beat you. In fact, it would be no surprise if they topple the Dubs.

Cant see the Donegal Tyrone dominance ending any time soon. £100k could be put to better use for the next few years if you are chasing an anglo celt, never mind a Sam. Thats not having a dig at you, just stating the reality of the current pecking order.

The Dubs are off the scale.
BC above suggested 2 from Killeavy . Throw in 3 from Mullaghbawn and 4 from Cross. Can they go 0 to 60 faster than Laois and deliver a 20 metre inch perfect pass at the end? All the Dubs can. In the good old days Sam visited Meath, Galway, Armagh and Tyrone 4 years out of 5. That is impossible now.
The GAA has ruined football.

[Orior]

I wonder what the reaction was from the Armagh management team yesterday?

"Oh, that's what we should have done"

[Armamike]

Indeed.  Passion and guts will always be useful in Gaelic.