Brexit.

[LCohen]

Hmm well things just got interesting again..... Channel 4 news the nite for sure

Ive only just heard a few bits and bobs nothing from parliamentary experts but it seems to me that




• this was an option that was always on the cards and while it may seems a bit soon to press the nuclear button, time was also running out?
  
• also despite what all those opposed are saying... it is within the proper procedure? tho the reason for it is obviously corrupt and attempt to subvert parliament on the brexit issue

Is there time for a vote of confidence before hand?

Impossible, Tories greatest weapon is Corbyn, he is utterly useless  he would lose a vote and an election. Spent years dithering about when a decisive move to remain, when there was momentum on their side was needed. Cameron is to blame for Brexit, Corbyn is to blame for no deal.

If Corbyn is in fact useless can you please outline what the useful action he shoukd have taken to stop no deal?

You need to set out the actions he should have taken and how they would have worked??

I have tried to follow issues as they have emerged. My reading is that 4 options have been discussed
1) Outright Political i.e. Vote of no confidence and force an election
2) Political/Parliamentary i.e. successful vote of no confidence and vote successful vote for an alternative PM thereby obviating the need for an election and robbing BoJo of his prerogative of choosing the election date
3) Pure Parliamentary I.e. some parliamentary manoeuvre that forces the Bojo government hand to withdraw the threat of a no deal
4) Legal I.e. get a court to rule no deal illegal or unconstitutional


Option 1 was never an option as by the time a Bojo government threatened a no deal it became clear that Bojo could chose an election date post Halloween

Option 2 has been proposed by Corbyn and to be prosecuted next week.

Options 3 and 4 have been the subject of the great constitutional and legal minds. They haven't come up with a winning formula. Can you do better??

So set out the real steps Corbyn should have taken?

He could have voted for the deal, but was under the illusion he could get a vote of no confidence, force a general election and become PM, pie in the sky stuff. He is also a leaver so never pushed for a second referendum.

Right so you have 2 options there.
1) vote to Teasie's deal
2) push for a 2nd referendum

On 1) you are in fantasy land. The remain part of the Labour Party would not have gone with him and would have immediately removed him as party leader. The majority of pressure he is under seems to be from the remain side of the argument so the very idea that he should have facilitated a Brexit proposed by a Tory government is lala land.
Option 2 as proposed by yourself is immediately striking as it is in stark contradistinction with your own Option 1. Looks a bit scatter gun on your part. Secondly you say he should have pushed for something but what have you say on the prospects of success of the proposed course of action? After all you cannot seriously blame the man for not embarking on a course of action that wouldn't work so explain why it would have worked??

[t_mac]

I doubt anyone could remove Corbyn as has been shown. You'll have to forgive me I am on a phone and would take me an hour to type what you just did, Corbyn's red lines and his dithering about trying to please everyone make him utterly useless, he also put very little effort into the remain campaign in 2016, the antisemitism in his party and his failure to deal with it also make him useless as a leader.

[armaghniac]

What deal are you offering the unionists who stay?

Living in a normal society.

[LCohen]

I doubt anyone could remove Corbyn as has been shown. You'll have to forgive me I am on a phone and would take me an hour to type what you just did, Corbyn's red lines and his dithering about trying to please everyone make him utterly useless, he also put very little effort into the remain campaign in 2016, the antisemitism in his party and his failure to deal with it also make him useless as a leader.

Well some time when you are not on a phone you take out the time to lay out the steps that someone should take to stop a no deal Brexit and how they will work. Don't dither

[LCohen]

What deal are you offering the unionists who stay?

Living in a normal society.

In NI???

[omaghjoe]

If Corbyn wasnt such and ideologist he could have kept his party together, prob even stole a few tory mps, been an acceptable face for a caretaker government, been able to take his party and electorate with a coordinated strategy for brexit. He could have had and won a vote of confidence as well as a GE and he'd be sitting in downing street at the minute with the Tories in disarray.
But he cant let go of his precious ideology that were borne while the world has utterly different place. Its is the epitome of fiddling while Rome burns.

As was put to John McDonnel last night...."theres an open goal and you cant score"

Also I thought it hilarious that every week at the dispatch box Thresea May would give him a good hiding  while her world was imploding.

[LCohen]

If Corbyn wasnt such and ideologist he could have kept his party together, prob even stole a few tory mps, been an acceptable face for a caretaker government, been able to take his party and electorate with a coordinated strategy for brexit. He could have had and won a vote of confidence as well as a GE and he'd be sitting in downing street at the minute with the Tories in disarray.
But he cant let go of his precious ideology that were borne while the world has utterly different place. Its is the epitome of fiddling while Rome burns.

As was put to John McDonnel last night...."theres an open goal and you cant score"

Also I thought it hilarious that every week at the dispatch box Thresea May would give him a good hiding  while her world was imploding.

Explain the actions that Corbyn should have taken that would have united the 4 divisions in his parliamentary party (being MPs in Remain constituencies, MPs in leave constituencies that voted leave overall, MPs in constituencies where the Labour vote voted to leave and fourthly Kate Hoey)?

Name the Tory MPs that would have moved across?

The caretaker government is going to do nothing other than extend Article 50 and call a general election. Name the MPs that object to no deal Brexit but will sit on their hands if Corbyn plays a role in the solution. More importantly outline your opinion of these MPs??

What coordinated Brexit strategy will get the buy in of Labour MPs, members and voters? You are arguing that Labour should be a clear party for Leave

You say he could have won a no confidence vote. On what date? Which Tory MPs would have voted for it? What commentators said it would have been won? Your talk of GE is conditional on your No confidence "argument"

So set out the details

[omaghjoe]

If Corbyn wasnt such and ideologist he could have kept his party together, prob even stole a few tory mps, been an acceptable face for a caretaker government, been able to take his party and electorate with a coordinated strategy for brexit. He could have had and won a vote of confidence as well as a GE and he'd be sitting in downing street at the minute with the Tories in disarray.
But he cant let go of his precious ideology that were borne while the world has utterly different place. Its is the epitome of fiddling while Rome burns.

As was put to John McDonnel last night...."theres an open goal and you cant score"

Also I thought it hilarious that every week at the dispatch box Thresea May would give him a good hiding  while her world was imploding.

Explain the actions that Corbyn should have taken that would have united the 4 divisions in his parliamentary party (being MPs in Remain constituencies, MPs in leave constituencies that voted leave overall, MPs in constituencies where the Labour vote voted to leave and fourthly Kate Hoey)?

Name the Tory MPs that would have moved across?

The caretaker government is going to do nothing other than extend Article 50 and call a general election. Name the MPs that object to no deal Brexit but will sit on their hands if Corbyn plays a role in the solution. More importantly outline your opinion of these MPs??

What coordinated Brexit strategy will get the buy in of Labour MPs, members and voters? You are arguing that Labour should be a clear party for Leave

You say he could have won a no confidence vote. On what date? Which Tory MPs would have voted for it? What commentators said it would have been won? Your talk of GE is conditional on your No confidence "argument"

So set out the details

1. His Parliamentary party is more or less united on Brexit, how many actually vote against the whip? 10 or something? Last time out it was only Hoey.... let her be and deselect at the next election. Or dig up some dirt and have a petition for her removal followed by a by election which she would be duly crucified by a Remain candidate. My point is he would have much more leverage and weight with the whip to easily deal with rebels if he had stable support but he doesn't... half his parliamentary party would love to get rid of him so he has to do everything by the book and he's always scrambling to appease someone?

2. Prob the ones that actually left the Tory party and formed another one with a group of Labour MPs.... who incidentally are pissed off with his economic delusion but use anti Seminitism as a smoke screen. And maybe some of the others who lost the whip.

3. The Lib Dems for a start... not to mention the sensible Remain Tories.

4. No, prob just support a ref2 and present it as a democratic 3 way vote with the exit deal presented as a third option. IN an election talk lots about the Brexit party and emphasis Tory austerity while presenting Labour as a sensible option of sustainable growth by a moderate tax regime which will providing income to support the NHS and social welfare. Then just cut your loses on the Leave seats, the marginal seats won would more than make up for the those lost.

5. Hmmm i dunno...... maybe after Theresa May's catastrophic series of record defeats? Being an unacceptable option as PM was enuff to deter them so being more acceptable and a few underhand tactics like promising weak Labour candidates in targeted marginal Remain seats could have also have brought a few. The reality if he had a more centrist approach he would have had greater all around support and he would have been able to put much more pressure on her much earlier and forced her resignation... indeed he would prob have won the election...


Besides all of this is pointless.... its obvious that he is not the man for the job.... FFS its says it all when he has to have someone like Diane Abbot as a senior member of his cabinet

[omaghjoe]

Who said Boris and co were anti European..... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierogi

[johnnycool]

SF didn't campaign for a remain vote. Now they won't help to stop no deal. It's as if they want Brexit. Oh yeah, that's right, they actually sit with the communists in the EU and actively campaigned for a NO VOTE IN EVERY SINGLE EU REFERENDUM.

But yeah, I'm an arsehole and SF are out to actually help the people.

BTW SF didn't offer a pack on FST or SB.

Of course they do. SF think that Brexit will drive enough moderate unionists into the arms of nationalism to trigger a border poll, and they can smell a united Ireland within the next ten years.

Reasons why I don't like that strategy:

• A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now and Irish reunification
• The north needs to make more progress on desegregation, but so far I'm not seeing any significant effort on SF's part to resolve the parades issue or desegregate the education system
• If a border poll were to happen now the loyalists would go ballistic and there'd be another Ulster Covenant, probably with guns smuggled in from Russia this time instead of Germany
• Possible civil war (or at least threats thereof) and demands for a repartitioned prod homeland in Antrim and Down.

SF are playing a dangerous game. Big constitutional shocks and redrawing of borders are not to be taken lightly. Brexit has unleashed dark forces that nobody could predict or handle. A border poll at this point would unleash even more.

I am beginning to realise that Sinn Fein need to stop trying to own a United Ireland. Let people work it out for themselves that it is the better option and keep Martina and her confrontational rhetoric quiet.

I used to Vote Sinn Fein, until this year!

The Irish Government needs to own what a United Ireland looks like.

Varadkar was right to say that a united Ireland would not just be the north morphed into the existing Dail setup and there'll need to be regionalised legislatures in place.

[magpie seanie]

It's absolutely mind boggling that otherwise sensible people still persist with blaming Corbyn on this issue. Jo Swinson, who facilitated Cameron's government, is clearly more to blame but she's the darling of the remainers for some bizarre reason.

There's also another inconvenient fact that people tend to forget. The British people voted to leave the EU. People ranting and raving about "we didn't understand the consequences" or "we were lied to" like it was the first time the full truth wasn't spelled out in ABC terms to the public? Grow up for heavens sake. I don't want Britain to leave the EU, certainly not on a no-deal basis, but you can't blame Jeremy Corbyn for respecting the result of the referendum. Madness.

And another thing - I would have thought people from here would be well attuned to smear campaigns from the British establishment. Anyone who genuinely believe Corbyn is anti-semitic or tolerates anti-semitism is simply a fool. This is a man who has fought injustice all his life and has always come out on the right side of history. Even back when he was derided for supporting that "terrorist" Mandela, when he had to balls to try and work for peace in NI, the list goes on. The picture painted of him and sadly swallowed by many is a pathetic caricature. The Tories and their Blairite friends have underestimated him time and again. I believe they've done so again and will pay a heavy price this time.

[LCohen]

If Corbyn wasnt such and ideologist he could have kept his party together, prob even stole a few tory mps, been an acceptable face for a caretaker government, been able to take his party and electorate with a coordinated strategy for brexit. He could have had and won a vote of confidence as well as a GE and he'd be sitting in downing street at the minute with the Tories in disarray.
But he cant let go of his precious ideology that were borne while the world has utterly different place. Its is the epitome of fiddling while Rome burns.

As was put to John McDonnel last night...."theres an open goal and you cant score"

Also I thought it hilarious that every week at the dispatch box Thresea May would give him a good hiding  while her world was imploding.

Explain the actions that Corbyn should have taken that would have united the 4 divisions in his parliamentary party (being MPs in Remain constituencies, MPs in leave constituencies that voted leave overall, MPs in constituencies where the Labour vote voted to leave and fourthly Kate Hoey)?

Name the Tory MPs that would have moved across?

The caretaker government is going to do nothing other than extend Article 50 and call a general election. Name the MPs that object to no deal Brexit but will sit on their hands if Corbyn plays a role in the solution. More importantly outline your opinion of these MPs??

What coordinated Brexit strategy will get the buy in of Labour MPs, members and voters? You are arguing that Labour should be a clear party for Leave

You say he could have won a no confidence vote. On what date? Which Tory MPs would have voted for it? What commentators said it would have been won? Your talk of GE is conditional on your No confidence "argument"

So set out the details

1. His Parliamentary party is more or less united on Brexit, how many actually vote against the whip? 10 or something? Last time out it was only Hoey.... let her be and deselect at the next election. Or dig up some dirt and have a petition for her removal followed by a by election which she would be duly crucified by a Remain candidate. My point is he would have much more leverage and weight with the whip to easily deal with rebels if he had stable support but he doesn't... half his parliamentary party would love to get rid of him so he has to do everything by the book and he's always scrambling to appease someone?

2. Prob the ones that actually left the Tory party and formed another one with a group of Labour MPs.... who incidentally are pissed off with his economic delusion but use anti Seminitism as a smoke screen. And maybe some of the others who lost the whip.

3. The Lib Dems for a start... not to mention the sensible Remain Tories.

4. No, prob just support a ref2 and present it as a democratic 3 way vote with the exit deal presented as a third option. IN an election talk lots about the Brexit party and emphasis Tory austerity while presenting Labour as a sensible option of sustainable growth by a moderate tax regime which will providing income to support the NHS and social welfare. Then just cut your loses on the Leave seats, the marginal seats won would more than make up for the those lost.

5. Hmmm i dunno...... maybe after Theresa May's catastrophic series of record defeats? Being an unacceptable option as PM was enuff to deter them so being more acceptable and a few underhand tactics like promising weak Labour candidates in targeted marginal Remain seats could have also have brought a few. The reality if he had a more centrist approach he would have had greater all around support and he would have been able to put much more pressure on her much earlier and forced her resignation... indeed he would prob have won the election...


Besides all of this is pointless.... its obvious that he is not the man for the job.... FFS its says it all when he has to have someone like Diane Abbot as a senior member of his cabinet

Outline the united position that Barry Gardiner, John Mann, Yvette Cooper, Jess Philips and Kier Starmer are "more or less united on Brexit on"?

Current estimation is that up to 45 Labour MPs would stand in the way of a second referendum if asked to vote in favour of it. The number that would ignore the whip if Labour backed May's deal is unknown but likely to be 100+. Your tactics for dealing with rebels couldn't cope with these numbers.

Outline the policy positions adopted by Soubry, Allen and Wollaston over the years that they could reconcile with joining Labour - any version of the Labour Party noting that only 2 Tory MPs have ever defected to Labour in history including all previous centrist versions of the Party under other leaders

So what is your opinion (given you don't like ideological politicians) of these LDs and Tories that will let a no deal happen if the only alternative is a 90 day caretaker Labour government

You think a 3 way Vote is going to bring a conclusion to this?? To be honest that reads like a massive failure on your part to grasp the basics of the situation but i'll happily read your response outlining how it would work?

What numbers are you using for these swing seat that Labour would lose and win???

Your point 5 is wonderfully loose and plucked from the realm of fantasy. No confidence votes are exceptionally difficult to pull off. You need Tory MPs to end their own careers. Some older MPs or ones already resigned to deselection are prime targets but the numbers were never within reach back then. They are closer now (as there is a reducing number of Labour rebels as the Tory position hardens)

[trailer]

It's absolutely mind boggling that otherwise sensible people still persist with blaming Corbyn on this issue. Jo Swinson, who facilitated Cameron's government, is clearly more to blame but she's the darling of the remainers for some bizarre reason.

There's also another inconvenient fact that people tend to forget. The British people voted to leave the EU. People ranting and raving about "we didn't understand the consequences" or "we were lied to" like it was the first time the full truth wasn't spelled out in ABC terms to the public? Grow up for heavens sake. I don't want Britain to leave the EU, certainly not on a no-deal basis, but you can't blame Jeremy Corbyn for respecting the result of the referendum. Madness.

And another thing - I would have thought people from here would be well attuned to smear campaigns from the British establishment. Anyone who genuinely believe Corbyn is anti-semitic or tolerates anti-semitism is simply a fool. This is a man who has fought injustice all his life and has always come out on the right side of history. Even back when he was derided for supporting that "terrorist" Mandela, when he had to balls to try and work for peace in NI, the list goes on. The picture painted of him and sadly swallowed by many is a pathetic caricature. The Tories and their Blairite friends have underestimated him time and again. I believe they've done so again and will pay a heavy price this time.

Fair enough. But the biggest issue of the last 3 years has been Brexit and he's been all over the place on it. From wanting to leave to now wanting to Remain. Hardly what you'd expect from the leader of the opposition and someone who wants to be PM.

[LCohen]

It's absolutely mind boggling that otherwise sensible people still persist with blaming Corbyn on this issue. Jo Swinson, who facilitated Cameron's government, is clearly more to blame but she's the darling of the remainers for some bizarre reason.

There's also another inconvenient fact that people tend to forget. The British people voted to leave the EU. People ranting and raving about "we didn't understand the consequences" or "we were lied to" like it was the first time the full truth wasn't spelled out in ABC terms to the public? Grow up for heavens sake. I don't want Britain to leave the EU, certainly not on a no-deal basis, but you can't blame Jeremy Corbyn for respecting the result of the referendum. Madness.

And another thing - I would have thought people from here would be well attuned to smear campaigns from the British establishment. Anyone who genuinely believe Corbyn is anti-semitic or tolerates anti-semitism is simply a fool. This is a man who has fought injustice all his life and has always come out on the right side of history. Even back when he was derided for supporting that "terrorist" Mandela, when he had to balls to try and work for peace in NI, the list goes on. The picture painted of him and sadly swallowed by many is a pathetic caricature. The Tories and their Blairite friends have underestimated him time and again. I believe they've done so again and will pay a heavy price this time.

Fair enough. But the biggest issue of the last 3 years has been Brexit and he's been all over the place on it. From wanting to leave to now wanting to Remain. Hardly what you'd expect from the leader of the opposition and someone who wants to be PM.

2 key points that need to be factored into that line of thought

Firstly any large broad based party is not united on this issue. If forced Labour into say an outright remain position the party splits. A split isn't measured in the number of MPs that go to one side or the other. It's the split in every constituency that kills the party. The same applies to an outright support for a specific leave position and Labour were never going to be the party of no deal. A second referendum appears at first glance to offer a way out but that is illusionary. Second vote proponents have themselves frequently said it was "too early" to push for one in parliament. Indicating that it is not straight forward. Added to that if a second referendum is to be decisive it needs to be binary and specific. The first vote was binary but not specific and look at the mess. If it's to be binary then you need to get rid of one of the three option (deal, no deal, remain). Which one are you going to get rid off? If Deal stays then what deal? If Deal goes then it's Russian roulette with Remain vs No Deal. f**k!!!!!

Second point is that whatever you say about Brexit it has at the very least from the moment of the referendum result been complicated. Offers of simple solutions are quickly exposed. Populists telling people what they want to hear offers no way forward. Populists telling different groups differing simplistic tropes at the same time is why we are here and where our ire should be directed. Corbyn is not and has not been the problem

[armaghniac]

Corbyn has his own agenda in relation to leaving EU regulations so that he can nationalise things and suchlike.
Labour's contribution should have been to propose a moderate Brexit, respecting the referendum but moving forward in a deliberate manner.