Brexit.

[JohnDenver]

SF didn't campaign for a remain vote. Now they won't help to stop no deal. It's as if they want Brexit. Oh yeah, that's right, they actually sit with the communists in the EU and actively campaigned for a NO VOTE IN EVERY SINGLE EU REFERENDUM.

But yeah, I'm an arsehole and SF are out to actually help the people.

BTW SF didn't offer a pack on FST or SB.

pact your bags and leave this thread immediately

[BennyCake]

SF didn't campaign for a remain vote. Now they won't help to stop no deal. It's as if they want Brexit. Oh yeah, that's right, they actually sit with the communists in the EU and actively campaigned for a NO VOTE IN EVERY SINGLE EU REFERENDUM.

But yeah, I'm an arsehole and SF are out to actually help the people.

BTW SF didn't offer a pack on FST or SB.

They do, as it gives them more reason for actually existing. SF grow in times of turbulence.

[Rossfan]

They won't be needing any Westmunster salaries for another while

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/sinn-fin-receives-1-6m-political-donation-from-mystery-donor-38448014.html

[Eamonnca1]

SF didn't campaign for a remain vote. Now they won't help to stop no deal. It's as if they want Brexit. Oh yeah, that's right, they actually sit with the communists in the EU and actively campaigned for a NO VOTE IN EVERY SINGLE EU REFERENDUM.

But yeah, I'm an arsehole and SF are out to actually help the people.

BTW SF didn't offer a pack on FST or SB.

Of course they do. SF think that Brexit will drive enough moderate unionists into the arms of nationalism to trigger a border poll, and they can smell a united Ireland within the next ten years.

Reasons why I don't like that strategy:

• A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now and Irish reunification
• The north needs to make more progress on desegregation, but so far I'm not seeing any significant effort on SF's part to resolve the parades issue or desegregate the education system
• If a border poll were to happen now the loyalists would go ballistic and there'd be another Ulster Covenant, probably with guns smuggled in from Russia this time instead of Germany
• Possible civil war (or at least threats thereof) and demands for a repartitioned prod homeland in Antrim and Down.

SF are playing a dangerous game. Big constitutional shocks and redrawing of borders are not to be taken lightly. Brexit has unleashed dark forces that nobody could predict or handle. A border poll at this point would unleash even more.

[TheOptimist]

SF didn't campaign for a remain vote. Now they won't help to stop no deal. It's as if they want Brexit. Oh yeah, that's right, they actually sit with the communists in the EU and actively campaigned for a NO VOTE IN EVERY SINGLE EU REFERENDUM.

But yeah, I'm an arsehole and SF are out to actually help the people.

BTW SF didn't offer a pack on FST or SB.

Of course they do. SF think that Brexit will drive enough moderate unionists into the arms of nationalism to trigger a border poll, and they can smell a united Ireland within the next ten years.

Reasons why I don't like that strategy:

• A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now and Irish reunification
• The north needs to make more progress on desegregation, but so far I'm not seeing any significant effort on SF's part to resolve the parades issue or desegregate the education system
• If a border poll were to happen now the loyalists would go ballistic and there'd be another Ulster Covenant, probably with guns smuggled in from Russia this time instead of Germany
• Possible civil war (or at least threats thereof) and demands for a repartitioned prod homeland in Antrim and Down.

SF are playing a dangerous game. Big constitutional shocks and redrawing of borders are not to be taken lightly. Brexit has unleashed dark forces that nobody could predict or handle. A border poll at this point would unleash even more.

I am beginning to realise that Sinn Fein need to stop trying to own a United Ireland. Let people work it out for themselves that it is the better option and keep Martina and her confrontational rhetoric quiet.

I used to Vote Sinn Fein, until this year!

[imtommygunn]

Eamonn I would say that is more moderate nationalists than unionists.

[RedHand88]

SF didn't campaign for a remain vote. Now they won't help to stop no deal. It's as if they want Brexit. Oh yeah, that's right, they actually sit with the communists in the EU and actively campaigned for a NO VOTE IN EVERY SINGLE EU REFERENDUM.

But yeah, I'm an arsehole and SF are out to actually help the people.

BTW SF didn't offer a pack on FST or SB.

Ach now this is just nonsense. Yes they did. A quick search will find a large amount of photos of SF literature, posters, activists etc, supporting a remain vote.

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/sinn-fein-campaigning-vigorously-for-remain-vote-in-referendum-34770636.html

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-belfast-uk-23rd-june-2016-sinn-fein-supporting-a-vote-remain-outsidea-107197367.html

[RedHand88]

SF didn't campaign for a remain vote. Now they won't help to stop no deal. It's as if they want Brexit. Oh yeah, that's right, they actually sit with the communists in the EU and actively campaigned for a NO VOTE IN EVERY SINGLE EU REFERENDUM.

But yeah, I'm an arsehole and SF are out to actually help the people.

BTW SF didn't offer a pack on FST or SB.

Add this to your collection of clangers 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2010/apr/20/sinn-fein-south-belfast-sdlp-pact

[trailer]

SF didn't campaign for a remain vote. Now they won't help to stop no deal. It's as if they want Brexit. Oh yeah, that's right, they actually sit with the communists in the EU and actively campaigned for a NO VOTE IN EVERY SINGLE EU REFERENDUM.

But yeah, I'm an arsehole and SF are out to actually help the people.

BTW SF didn't offer a pack on FST or SB.

Add this to your collection of clangers 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2010/apr/20/sinn-fein-south-belfast-sdlp-pact

2010. Like 9 years ago.

[Eamonnca1]

Quoth The Economist:

How Parliament can stop Boris Johnson's no-deal Brexit

The prime minister has sidelined Parliament and set a course for no-deal. MPs must act now to stop him



One by one, the principles on which the Brexit campaign was fought have been exposed as hollow. Before the referendum, Leavers argued that victory would enable them to negotiate a brilliant deal with the European Union. Now they advocate leaving with no deal at all. Before the vote they said that Brexit would allow Britain to strike more free-trade agreements. Now they say that trading on the bare-bones terms of the World Trade Organisation would be fine. Loudest of all they talked of taking back control and restoring sovereignty to Parliament. Yet on August 28th Boris Johnson, a leading Leaver who is now prime minister, announced that in the run-up to Brexit Parliament would be suspended altogether.

His utterly cynical ploy is designed to stop mps steering the country off the reckless course he has set to leave the eu with or without a deal on October 31st (see article). His actions are technically legal, but they stretch the conventions of the constitution to their limits. Because he is too weak to carry Parliament in a vote, he means to silence it. In Britain's representative democracy, that sets a dangerous precedent (see article).

But it is still not too late for mps to thwart his plans—if they get organised. The sense of inevitability about no-deal, cultivated by the hardliners advising Mr Johnson, is bogus. The eu is against such an outcome; most Britons oppose it; Parliament has already voted against the idea. Those mps determined to stop no-deal have been divided and unfocused. When they return to work next week after their uneasy summer recess, they will have a fleeting chance to avert this unwanted national calamity. Mr Johnson's actions this week have made clear why they must seize it.

Of all her mistakes as prime minister, perhaps Theresa May's gravest was to plant the idea that Britain might do well to leave the eu without any exit agreement. Her slogan that "no deal is better than a bad deal" was supposed to persuade the Europeans to make concessions. It didn't—but it did persuade many British voters and mps that if the eu offered less than perfect terms, Britain should walk away.

In fact the government's own analysis suggests that no-deal would make the economy 9% smaller after 15 years than if Britain had remained. Mr Johnson says preparations for the immediate disruption are "colossal and extensive and fantastic". Yet civil servants expect shortages of food, medicine and petrol, and a "meltdown" at ports. A growing number of voters seem to think that a few bumpy months and a lasting hit to incomes might be worth it to get the whole tedious business out of the way. This is the greatest myth of all. If Britain leaves with no deal it will face an even more urgent need to reach terms with the eu, which will demand the same concessions as before—and perhaps greater ones, given that Britain's hand will be weaker.

Mr Johnson insists that his intention is to get a new, better agreement before October 31st, and that to do so he needs to threaten the eu with the credible prospect of no-deal. Despite the fact that Mrs May got nowhere with this tactic, many Tory mps still see it as a good one. The eu wants a deal, after all. And whereas it became clear that Mrs May was bluffing about walking out, Mr Johnson might just be serious (the fanatics who do his thinking certainly are). Angela Merkel, Germany's chancellor, said recently that Britain should come up with a plan in the next 30 days if it wants to replace the Irish backstop, the most contentious part of the withdrawal agreement. Many moderate Tories, even those who oppose no-deal, would like to give their new prime minister a chance to prove his mettle.

They are mistaken. First, the effect of the no-deal threat on Brussels continues to be overestimated in London. The eu's position—that it is open to plausible British suggestions—is the same as it has always been. The eu's priority is to keep the rules of its club intact, to avoid other members angling for special treatment. With or without the threat of no-deal, it will make no more than marginal changes to the existing agreement. Second, even if the eu were to drop the backstop altogether, the resulting deal might well be rejected by "Spartan" Tory Brexiteers, so intoxicated by the idea of leaving without a deal that they seem ready to vote against any agreement. And third, even if an all-new deal were offered by the eu and then passed by Parliament, ratifying it in Europe and passing the necessary laws in Britain would require an extension well beyond October 31st. Mr Johnson's vow to leave on that date, "do or die", makes it impossible to leave with any new deal. It also reveals that he is fundamentally unserious about negotiating one.

That is why Parliament must act now to take no-deal off the table, by passing a law requiring the prime minister to ask the eu for an extension. Even before Mr Johnson poleaxed Parliament, this was not going to be easy. The House of Commons' agenda is controlled by Downing Street, which will allow no time for such a bill. mps showed in the spring that they could take temporary control of the agenda, when they passed a law forcing Mrs May to request an extension beyond the first Brexit deadline of March 29th. This time there is no current legislation to act as a "hook" for an amendment mandating an extension, so the Speaker of the House would have to go against precedent by allowing mps to attach a binding vote to an emergency debate. All that may be possible. But with Parliament suspended for almost five weeks there will be desperately little time.

So, if rebel mps cannot pass a law, they must be ready to use their weapon of last resort: kicking Mr Johnson out of office with a vote of no confidence. He has a working majority of just one. The trouble is that attempts to find a caretaker prime minister, to request a Brexit extension before calling an election, have foundered on whether it should be Jeremy Corbyn, the far-left Labour leader whom most Tories despise, or a more neutral figure.

If the various factions opposed to no-deal cannot agree, Mr Johnson will win. But if they needed a reason to put aside their differences, he has just given them one. The prime minister was already steering Britain towards a no-deal Brexit that would hit the economy, wrench at the union and cause a lasting rift with international allies. Now he has shown himself willing to stifle parliamentary democracy to achieve his aims. Wavering mps must ask themselves: if not now, when?

[LCohen]

Hmm well things just got interesting again..... Channel 4 news the nite for sure

Ive only just heard a few bits and bobs nothing from parliamentary experts but it seems to me that




• this was an option that was always on the cards and while it may seems a bit soon to press the nuclear button, time was also running out?
  
• also despite what all those opposed are saying... it is within the proper procedure? tho the reason for it is obviously corrupt and attempt to subvert parliament on the brexit issue

Is there time for a vote of confidence before hand?

Impossible, Tories greatest weapon is Corbyn, he is utterly useless  he would lose a vote and an election. Spent years dithering about when a decisive move to remain, when there was momentum on their side was needed. Cameron is to blame for Brexit, Corbyn is to blame for no deal.

If Corbyn is in fact useless can you please outline what the useful action he shoukd have taken to stop no deal?

You need to set out the actions he should have taken and how they would have worked??

I have tried to follow issues as they have emerged. My reading is that 4 options have been discussed
1) Outright Political i.e. Vote of no confidence and force an election
2) Political/Parliamentary i.e. successful vote of no confidence and vote successful vote for an alternative PM thereby obviating the need for an election and robbing BoJo of his prerogative of choosing the election date
3) Pure Parliamentary I.e. some parliamentary manoeuvre that forces the Bojo government hand to withdraw the threat of a no deal
4) Legal I.e. get a court to rule no deal illegal or unconstitutional


Option 1 was never an option as by the time a Bojo government threatened a no deal it became clear that Bojo could chose an election date post Halloween

Option 2 has been proposed by Corbyn and to be prosecuted next week.

Options 3 and 4 have been the subject of the great constitutional and legal minds. They haven't come up with a winning formula. Can you do better??

So set out the real steps Corbyn should have taken?

[LCohen]

Sinn fein are even more useless than the DUP. They want people to vote for them but wont go to Westminster to fight for them. What exactly is the point of sinn fein at the minute- as they are not even back in stormont.

While the DUP maybe responsible for the whole mess all sinn Fein have done is sit on their hole

Why do SF even run candidates in a British-called GE, within a British-led statelet? By SF taking part in these elections, they are legitimising partition, and that this part of Ireland is in the UK. Not only that, but when they sat in Stormont, they're doing the same.

Yet they refuse to take seats in Westminster after all that. I mean, wtf?

Surely standing in elections for the 26 county Dail is legitimising partition??

[LCohen]

It's all about the pound, their current leadership is totally inept.

They don't draw a wage from Westminster.

Sinn Fein do claim their salary. Westminster refuse to pay it.

Just to be clear

[t_mac]

Hmm well things just got interesting again..... Channel 4 news the nite for sure

Ive only just heard a few bits and bobs nothing from parliamentary experts but it seems to me that




• this was an option that was always on the cards and while it may seems a bit soon to press the nuclear button, time was also running out?
  
• also despite what all those opposed are saying... it is within the proper procedure? tho the reason for it is obviously corrupt and attempt to subvert parliament on the brexit issue

Is there time for a vote of confidence before hand?

Impossible, Tories greatest weapon is Corbyn, he is utterly useless  he would lose a vote and an election. Spent years dithering about when a decisive move to remain, when there was momentum on their side was needed. Cameron is to blame for Brexit, Corbyn is to blame for no deal.

If Corbyn is in fact useless can you please outline what the useful action he shoukd have taken to stop no deal?

You need to set out the actions he should have taken and how they would have worked??

I have tried to follow issues as they have emerged. My reading is that 4 options have been discussed
1) Outright Political i.e. Vote of no confidence and force an election
2) Political/Parliamentary i.e. successful vote of no confidence and vote successful vote for an alternative PM thereby obviating the need for an election and robbing BoJo of his prerogative of choosing the election date
3) Pure Parliamentary I.e. some parliamentary manoeuvre that forces the Bojo government hand to withdraw the threat of a no deal
4) Legal I.e. get a court to rule no deal illegal or unconstitutional


Option 1 was never an option as by the time a Bojo government threatened a no deal it became clear that Bojo could chose an election date post Halloween

Option 2 has been proposed by Corbyn and to be prosecuted next week.

Options 3 and 4 have been the subject of the great constitutional and legal minds. They haven't come up with a winning formula. Can you do better??

So set out the real steps Corbyn should have taken?

He could have voted for the deal, but was under the illusion he could get a vote of no confidence, force a general election and become PM, pie in the sky stuff. He is also a leaver so never pushed for a second referendum.

[LCohen]

If only Sinn Fein would get up and help the people. They'll be guilty if a No-Deal happens.

I was waiting to see what idiot made this argument.

Congrats.

You won.

You wouldn't have got a decent price on that clown, he was odds-on favourite.

I'd like to congratulate Johnson, he's just sounded the death-knell for the 'precious Union' ... an industrial-sized carton of popcorn ordered to sit back and watch this clusterfcuk develop over the coming two months. And Arlene, don't let the door hit you on the way out when we get our country back at last from thieving Planters

What deal are you offering the unionists who stay?

Address your answer to the Uk Government, the EU and US government? They all have to sign up

Also address it to the RoI electorate who will vote on the same day?