So what do ye think of the black card rule now?

[Esmarelda]

That's true, but again, I think people are judging it against something it was not going to stop. People ALWAYS foul and have ALWAYS fouled in those scenarios. It would take something significantly game impacting to stop that practice, like an automatic 13m free or something.

However, my point is those frees were happening from minute 1, to allow defensive shapes to be put in place, and that has largely been eliminated.

Maybe it was never going to stop it but I think the aim was to do just that. Like I said, reducing the number of players on the team via the sin bin would be a better punishment.

[Esmarelda]

Some good points being made. As an aside, I referee club games at a low enough level and the black card has been excellent in terms of 'mouthing' to the officals. Refs can give a black, yellow or even red for verbal abuse and I have found explaining to the captains before hand that a black could be dished out for any verbals to the ref has made it easier and enjoyable to ref. Now it would be a brave ref to give a black for this in an intercounty match - excuse the tangent .

I've always wondered if/why not referees don't spell out certain things they won't tolerate to the two captains before a game. Seem logical.

[Buttofthehill]

Yeah, I know but just imagine the uproar from fans, media if CO'C or Philly etc etc etc was black carded for mouthing! Talk about ruining the game by playing by the rules!

[AZOffaly]

That's true, but again, I think people are judging it against something it was not going to stop. People ALWAYS foul and have ALWAYS fouled in those scenarios. It would take something significantly game impacting to stop that practice, like an automatic 13m free or something.

However, my point is those frees were happening from minute 1, to allow defensive shapes to be put in place, and that has largely been eliminated.

Maybe it was never going to stop it but I think the aim was to do just that. Like I said, reducing the number of players on the team via the sin bin would be a better punishment.

I don't agree the aim was to stop that. I think the aim was to stop the consistent, petty, time wasting and momentum killing fouling. I just think the proponents of it have been hoisted on their own petard, by sensationalising the incidents in the videos they showed to support the motion.

There's an image that sticks in my mind, from the Cavan Kerry quarter final a year or so before the rule came in. Declan O'Sullivan lost the ball in the Cavan full back line. As the defender came out with the ball, down near the corner flag, Declan deliberately tripped him up and brought him down. It was a game Kerry were well in control of, and was still in the first half. This was no 'desperation' or 'last ditch' foul to kill off a game or save a score, this was a calculated response to losing the ball, in order to stop any possible counter attack.

That is what I believe they were targetting.

[Zulu]

I agree AZ and the black card has been effective in doing that, Mark McHugh was another such incident and those types of fouls were killing the game.

The sin bin is a better solution and always was. One of the problems in the GAA is we don't go with the best solution as that won't get through due to individual agendas so instead we come up with a halfway house that's often neither here nor there.

[Esmarelda]

That's true, but again, I think people are judging it against something it was not going to stop. People ALWAYS foul and have ALWAYS fouled in those scenarios. It would take something significantly game impacting to stop that practice, like an automatic 13m free or something.

However, my point is those frees were happening from minute 1, to allow defensive shapes to be put in place, and that has largely been eliminated.

Maybe it was never going to stop it but I think the aim was to do just that. Like I said, reducing the number of players on the team via the sin bin would be a better punishment.

I don't agree the aim was to stop that. I think the aim was to stop the consistent, petty, time wasting and momentum killing fouling. I just think the proponents of it have been hoisted on their own petard, by sensationalising the incidents in the videos they showed to support the motion.

There's an image that sticks in my mind, from the Cavan Kerry quarter final a year or so before the rule came in. Declan O'Sullivan lost the ball in the Cavan full back line. As the defender came out with the ball, down near the corner flag, Declan deliberately tripped him up and brought him down. It was a game Kerry were well in control of, and was still in the first half. This was no 'desperation' or 'last ditch' foul to kill off a game or save a score, this was a calculated response to losing the ball, in order to stop any possible counter attack.

That is what I believe they were targetting.

I agree in your example that O'Sullivan did what he did as there was little punishment.

However, the last five minutes of a tight game is where these fouls are most important. I don't think the powers that be gave it enough thought and they did believe it would sort out such fouls at all times of the game.

[Esmarelda]

Yeah, I know but just imagine the uproar from fans, media if CO'C or Philly etc etc etc was black carded for mouthing! Talk about ruining the game by playing by the rules!

I know. It's an awful pity for the game to lose such class players for such silly things.

[Jinxy]

Bring in the sin-bin specifically for the rugby tackle, trip and body check offences.
Use the black card for sledging and abuse of officials.
Thus, the whole team are punished for cynicism, while the individual is punished for being an eejit.

[westbound]

Am I right in saying that the majority here are in favour of keeping the ruling of the black card similar to what is currently is now, but changing the punishment?

i.e. the offences stay the same but the punishment is 10 minute sin-bin rather than sending off and replacement?

Is that what people in favour of the sin bin want?


As an aside to that question, which do people think would be a bigger punishment to your team?
2 x black cards (under the current system) and players replaced immediately
OR
2 x 10 minute sin bins (i.e. your team playing with 14 men for 20 minutes)?

[lenny]

Am I right in saying that the majority here are in favour of keeping the ruling of the black card similar to what is currently is now, but changing the punishment?

i.e. the offences stay the same but the punishment is 10 minute sin-bin rather than sending off and replacement?

Is that what people in favour of the sin bin want?


As an aside to that question, which do people think would be a bigger punishment to your team?
2 x black cards (under the current system) and players replaced immediately
OR
2 x 10 minute sin bins (i.e. your team playing with 14 men for 20 minutes)?

Best punishment for cynical fouling is to hit teams on the scoreboard ie for a cynical foul/ black card type offence award a free from a designated spot say about 35 yards out from goal. A cynical foul denying a goal scoring chance should be penalised with the award of a penalty. This would be easier to police at all levels of the game and would definitely cut out the way teams can cynically run down the clock holding on to a few points lead. The sin bin would be very hard to police at club level with only one neutral official at most club league games. Imagine 2 or 3 players in the sin bin within a few minutes of each other. The ref would really struggle to cope with managing the timings.

[AZOffaly]

The problem with all of these type rules is the temptation it offers to divers. Unless you have similar counter deterrents for  diving, you are offering a free pass to try and get lads black-carded, win scoring frees and penalties.

At the end of the day, we are depending on our referees to make good decisions, and if they just did that today, the black card would be fine. And any other variation of the black card/sin bin/automatic scoring free will fail in exactly the same way if the refs get the high profile decisions wrong.

[rosnarun]

is the basic problem with the black card is it tries to turn Ref's into mind readers
what was the intention behind the tackle is the key question for black card tackles the is will include an examination of the character of the tackler and the dreaded 'is he that kind of player'
also every player is going to foul toward the end of a match to halt a goal scoring chance the only fit punishment for this is a penalty no matter if the player is inside or outside the box

[rosnarun]

sorry
lenny.. you beat me to it

[Jinxy]

The problem with all of these type rules is the temptation it offers to divers. Unless you have similar counter deterrents for  diving, you are offering a free pass to try and get lads black-carded, win scoring frees and penalties.

At the end of the day, we are depending on our referees to make good decisions, and if they just did that today, the black card would be fine. And any other variation of the black card/sin bin/automatic scoring free will fail in exactly the same way if the refs get the high profile decisions wrong.

Sin bin for diving also.
The thing about the sin-bin is there would be far less sympathy for the fella who goes off for 10 minutes than there would be for the fella who gets a black card and his game is over.
A ref would be far more likely to bin a player for a cynical offence in the first 10 minutes than he would be to give him a black card.
Bizarrely, the sin bin is the greater punishment but it would be tolerated by the fans & players as the perpetrator gets another bite at the cherry (depending on when he gets it).

[Fuzzman]

I think most people are happy enough with the black card rule WHEN it is implemented properly but most of the complaints this year has been when players have been wrongly sent to the line because the ref has got it wrong.
I was surprised to read that most intercounty refs like the rule and are happy for it to continue whereas I thought many would say it was too hard to judge the intent side of things.
The thing that amazes me the most is ref's decision NOT to punish more players for mouthing off. I think if this was a yellow card then refs would enforce it much more and cut out all that nonsense.

I'm not sure how effective a 10 min sin-bin punishment would be in today's defensive style games. I mean would it rather matter if you were down to 14 or even 13 when most of your team are behind the ball anyway. I think the black card punishment is a much more appropriate punishment but it's hard to take when one of your players is sent off wrongly.

As a matter of interest how many black cards were handed out from quarterfinal stage onwards and how many of them were proven to be incorrect?