Messages

Lol.

So, Craigbane enter themselves into the Ulster Intermediate Football League, but they're still really only junior.

They finish 5th in Division 2 Derry behind the following non-junior clubs:
Lavey (no introduction needed)
Faughanvale (this years IFC finalists)
Glenullin (Winners of 2023 & 2022 IFC)
Banagher (perennial IFC team)
... they even finished above a lock of intermediate teams... but they are still really only junior.

Craigbane won Derry junior two years ago... but they're still Junior?

I remember Middletown won the Armagh IHC few years back, I think there was some rule that they weren't allowed to compete in Ulster again at that level for 3 years. The Ulster Council should maybe look at something similar for the football to stop Cavan, Derry & Donegal taking the piss.

and prob wouldn't be a million miles away from winning or at least competing very well in intermediate.

They are a decent team but nowhere near competing with the top half of the Intermediate teams in the championship.

They entered the Ulster Intermediate football league this year so they must think of themselves as being an intermediate team.

[There was nothing to suggest they are a Senior team]

Oxymoron aside, you've disregarded my argument all along (league/championship alignment). Nothing beats winning a championship with your club, but if your club is capable of competing against Senior clubs, would you not actually rather play senior?

I've not disregarded your argument, I just pointed out that you made up your own question and answered it and pretended it was the one I posed.

There was nothing to suggest they are a Senior team - which was the whole point of this now long running argument.

There's even less to suggest they're a junior team. Actual junior teams like Collegeland, Dromara, Dromhowan etc are at a disadvantage when they come up against the likes of Division 1 Cavan teams and Division 2 Derry and Donegal teams masquerading as junior clubs. Not really a level playing field at all.

Sure, you might ask them if they'd rather play Senior Championship or League and they'd say yes. But are they good enough for that? They just showed why they were Junior for 15 years by bowing out of Ulster pretty meekly

They lost by 3 points to Craigbane, who are for all intents and purposes a mainstay of intermediate football in Derry - another county that has starting taking the piss. They're even worse in the hurling.

The point being that just putting them to Senior now based on League would have them hockeyed. And thrashings at Senior level this year or a Junior title? Which would be more memorable?

Nobody is advocating shoe-horning teams into senior but if they're good enough to play the best clubs in Cavan in competitive league football then they're not really a junior team, are they?

This is nonsense. They've played Junior 4 of the last 5 seasons and got relegated the one year they were in Intermediate.

All their Intermediate success was well over a decade ago.
 
They are a small rural club who've actually performed extremely well in Ulster so far as they've been missing a few first team players.

How is it nonsense?
They've won the most IFCs in Derry, how are they not a mainstay of that grade?
They won the Derry JFC in 2022 and have won it again this year.
They finished 4th in Division 2 behind this year's IFC finalists, the IFC winners from the 2 years before and one of the most decorated clubs in Derry. 

Not having a go at Craigbane. Just the Derry board.

[injury etc and get caught out.]

I've said it previously on here and generally got slammed for it! But I don't actually think provincial and All Ireland Junior and Intermediate competitions are even close to being fit for purpose. There are just way too many inconsistencies and anomalies in the makeup of teams at these levels, county by county, for the competitions to really make any deliberate sense.

They're not, but they're good fun overall and generally are consistent enough. An odd anomaly happens (my own club temporarily dropped to Intermediate in 2018 after a very bad year at Senior with injury/emigration, won Intermediate, got to Ulster final) and always will. But usually it's fine and overall consistent enough. These things are never straight lines

I'd do some surgery on them to not have too much of a discrepancy. Like what happens in Kerry, where the intermediate team is the 9th best in the county. That's way too strong that others who could be anywhere from 11th to 17th best. Stipulate the % of what is Senior, Intermediate, and Junior in your county. Otherwise, anomalies will always happen. Some strong teams have a terrible year with injury etc and get caught out. Can't really legislate for that

Same with Cullyhanna, deservedly relegated then got their act together and won an intermediate AI.

That's always a possibility with rural clubs, lose 5 or 6 players through injury/emigration etc can make a huge difference.

Yes and converse to that sometimes teams do get their act together, they play to their potential and end up rapidly moving up through the leagues. To keep them playing Junior football isn't fair on actual junior clubs.

I'm not being obtuse.
It's not a level playing field. Knockbride got beat by another intermediate club masquerading as a junior team.
I'm not saying they belong in senior football, but if they're able to take to field against multiple Cavan SFC winners and finalists in league football then they're more than handier than your average junior side. And I don't care how worthless you say the Cavan league football is, being able to reach the top level is unthinkable for any genuine junior club in any county. The only other county that it happens is Kerry which funny enough you were quick enough to berate! 

[There was nothing to suggest they are a Senior team]

Oxymoron aside, you've disregarded my argument all along (league/championship alignment). Nothing beats winning a championship with your club, but if your club is capable of competing against Senior clubs, would you not actually rather play senior?

I've not disregarded your argument, I just pointed out that you made up your own question and answered it and pretended it was the one I posed.

There was nothing to suggest they are a Senior team - which was the whole point of this now long running argument.

There's even less to suggest they're a junior team. Actual junior teams like Collegeland, Dromara, Dromhowan etc are at a disadvantage when they come up against the likes of Division 1 Cavan teams and Division 2 Derry and Donegal teams masquerading as junior clubs. Not really a level playing field at all.

Sure, you might ask them if they'd rather play Senior Championship or League and they'd say yes. But are they good enough for that? They just showed why they were Junior for 15 years by bowing out of Ulster pretty meekly

They lost by 3 points to Craigbane, who are for all intents and purposes a mainstay of intermediate football in Derry - another county that has starting taking the piss. They're even worse in the hurling.

The point being that just putting them to Senior now based on League would have them hockeyed. And thrashings at Senior level this year or a Junior title? Which would be more memorable?

Nobody is advocating shoe-horning teams into senior but if they're good enough to play the best clubs in Cavan in competitive league football then they're not really a junior team, are they?

Last 8:
Erne Gaels v Scotstown
Crosserlough v Kilcoo
Newbridge v Clann Eireann
Cargin v Errigal Ciaran

Odds:
Kilcoo 15/8
Scotstown 10/3
Errigal Ciaran 10/3
Newbridge 8/1
Clann Eireann 10/1
Cargin 16/1
Crosserlough 20/1
Erne Gaels 50/1


3 Horse race with the bookies
Maybe Clann Eireann Good Value?

I'd fancy Cargin for an upset

Oxymoron aside, you've disregarded my argument all along (league/championship alignment). Nothing beats winning a championship with your club, but if your club is capable of competing against Senior clubs, would you not actually rather play senior?

But that's not the question. I asked would they rather Championship silverware or play a higher League? I think nay player would take Championship in that case

I think if you sat most young lads starting out down and told them they could choose between winning a junior championship with their club OR representing their club in senior championship and senior league I think they'd choose the latter but then maybe the mentality in Cavan is different.

I get that anomalies occur now and again but for Cavan's SFC, IFC & JFC winners to all come from Division 1 football two years in a row isn't really an anomaly. The Junior winners getting narrowly beaten by a Division 2 Derry team isn't really vindication either.

Anyway, all the best to Collegeland in the semi finals against Division 2 Muff (who finished 2 places below this year's Donegal SFC finalists). They and Drumhowan (who play Craigbane who finished 4th in Derry Division 2) can hold their heads high.

Khun's pass shortly before ht was sublime. Forget who missed the chance, but the pass was put on a plate for them.

Maeda?
Celtic's finishing was actually piss poor at times. 3-1 doesn't do them justice. Kuhn clearly had a point to prove against his former club, the man was exceptional. The energy and intensity in the press was above and beyond anything Celtic have shown before in Europe - going 1-0 down they would have wilted last year. Overall a really good team performance, outworked, outpassed and outplayed the Germans.

Do teams want to be promoted with not winning a Championship?

I'd say most teams would probably want to play at the highest level possible and test themselves against better opposition. If you allow that mechanism through the league then you'll instantly make it a meaningful competition.

Would they? They'd rather play a higher League than win Championship silverware on merit? I dunno man...

Most club players won't ever win a championship, so I'd say yes.

I'd be inclined to agree. However the point being is that it is not that way currently. Hence why it's still Championship only based. If changed, then yeah, but you're looking back retrospectively and trying to apply your own standards to something that has already happened. You can't do that. It has been explained many times the situation, but you won't accept that and you want to apply different standards after the fact. I agree it needs to change, but that doesn't affect what has happened in the past

If Cavan, Derry, Donegal and whoever else want to continue letting Div1 & 2 clubs play Intermediate and Junior in their own competitions that's fine, but the Ulster Council at some point are going to have to step in.

[actually found guilty]

Maybe I am remembering wrong, but did the DUP get this much scrutiny over all their councillors actually found guilty of sex offences?

[You are so fixated on championship]

Do teams want to be promoted with not winning a Championship?

I'd say most teams would probably want to play at the highest level possible and test themselves against better opposition. If you allow that mechanism through the league then you'll instantly make it a meaningful competition.

Exactly! You are so fixated on championship. Most clubs would take any promotion to play div 1 within their county. In Monaghan one team every years gets promoted via the league ... some teams go up without winning anything but it creates competition and challenges the players. You look at the Monaghan co team... people laugh at playing div 1 for so long and not win an all Ireland buy by god playing Kerry and Dublin every year is better than Cavan playing div 3 and 4.

If anything I'm fixated on league, specifically that teams competing at junior level in Ulster should not come from Division 1. League to me is a better indicator of a club's standing over the course of a season than a handful or less games in championship. I don't care how little emphasis is given to the league, if you're able to take to the field in a competitive fixture at senior level with the best club in your county, you're not a junior team.

I understand Cavan do things arseways and all their club winners are Division 1 clubs but you also have the likes of Division 2 clubs from Derry and Donegal playing at Junior. In Antrim, Armagh, Down, Fermanagh*, Monaghan and Tyrone, the Junior winners come from the bottom tier in that county - the same simply cannot be said for Derry, Cavan & Donegal.

Do teams want to be promoted with not winning a Championship?

I'd say most teams would probably want to play at the highest level possible and test themselves against better opposition. If you allow that mechanism through the league then you'll instantly make it a meaningful competition.

Craigbane beat the Cavan crowd now back to how Derry are ruining the club championships...

Aye Derry seem to have went down the Cavan route. Did Craigbane not win a junior championship two years ago? A team that are 2x Ulster club intermediate champions and 7x Derry IFC winners. Are they really still a junior standard club?

Wait a second. Knockbride been taking a battering here as a junior side for 15 years, yet you sat on this info? Cavan took no such route as this. That's incredible as you are showing these are absolutely not a Junior level team, or at least Derry are gaming their Championship. You cannot compare this to Cavan and a Junior team for 15 years...

I've mentioned Derry before for taking the piss the last couple of years. They're doing the same in the hurling.

Cavan deservedly get flack after all 3 of your county winners coming from Division 1 last year!