Author Topic: Pick your team> Kinahans or Hutches ?  (Read 9351 times)

AZOffaly

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Re: Pick your team> Kinahans or Hutches ?
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2016, 03:05:34 PM »
So what about the link that says that most people who are cocaine/heroin users would have started off on Cannabis. If Cannabis wasn't there, would their first illegal drug be Cocaine or Heroin, or would they not be inclined to use either?

I would certainly see it as a possibility that someone who uses cannabis would be more predisposed to trying Cocaine. I doubt using Cannabis itself causes the urge, but I'm wondering if the initial step would be too big if they hadn't gotten comfortable using an illegal drug like cannabis.


seafoid

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Re: Pick your team> Kinahans or Hutches ?
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2016, 03:13:05 PM »
I suppose disposable income is highly correlated to drug use.
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AZOffaly

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Re: Pick your team> Kinahans or Hutches ?
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2016, 03:15:10 PM »
I suppose disposable income is highly correlated to drug use.

To a certain class of drug user I suppose. The cocaine on the seat of the mens jacks in Club M kind of user.

But addicts tend not to have a pile of disposable income. They just rob to feed the habit.

Puckoon

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Re: Pick your team> Kinahans or Hutches ?
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2016, 03:17:27 PM »
If Cocaine or Heroin is the destination, there's a million different ways to get there. Tenuous links at best between the average user of cannabis spring boarding onto heroin because the buzz got weaker. The buzz doesn't get weaker by the way, to quote Louis CK, they've been working on cannabis like its a potential cure for cancer and it's a much more potent and powerful plant now than 10,20,30 years ago. Does the buzz of a couple pints get weaker and have you ever thought "jeez I should consider some cocaine as the pints aren't getting it done for me"? I'd highly doubt it.

Granted there are most definitely addicts who started with pot as every addict of every kind started somewhere. The gambling addict needed some way to place their first bet. The alcoholic had their first drink. Cocaine is very much a party drug. I've been more exposed to Cocaine in a party scene where speed and ecstasy were present as opposed to being exposed to cocaine by pot smoking types.

Legalizing cannabis won't widen the gateway any further than criminalizing it has kept they gateway shut.
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Hardy

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Re: Pick your team> Kinahans or Hutches ?
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2016, 03:20:29 PM »
So what about the link that says that most people who are cocaine/heroin users would have started off on Cannabis. If Cannabis wasn't there, would their first illegal drug be Cocaine or Heroin, or would they not be inclined to use either?

I would certainly see it as a possibility that someone who uses cannabis would be more predisposed to trying Cocaine. I doubt using Cannabis itself causes the urge, but I'm wondering if the initial step would be too big if they hadn't gotten comfortable using an illegal drug like cannabis.


I think we're saying More or less the same thing, AZ. But the link says that most people who are cocaine/heroin users would have started off on cannabis. That's probably not true. Most people who are cocaine/heroin users would have started off on nicotine and alcohol. The point is that they would have used all three drugs along the way, but the study only refers to their use of cannabis.

The difference? Legality and illegality. I suggest there is no "gateway" or conduit between cannabis and harder drugs, as postulated. What there is is a barrier between legal and illegal drugs. Which is why I think the argument that legalising cannabis would expose more people to harder drugs doesn't hold any water a all. If cannabis was legal, the barrier between, on the one hand, cannabis, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, etc. and, on the other hand, hard drugs would be as significant as the barrier between, say nicotine and cannabis is now.
I studied deeply in the philosophies and religions, but cheerfulness kept breaking through - L.Cohen

mikehunt

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Re: Pick your team> Kinahans or Hutches ?
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2016, 03:20:59 PM »
Middleclass drug consumption is the reason the gangs exist
+1.
The same well heeled cnuts who keep giving out about criminality/gangs etc.

I think we've found our Harry Callaghan/Paul Kersey. If +1's were bullets then Rossfan would be spraying like a mofo.They can make a film when it all kicks off. Rossfan stars as Travis Prickle in "Ambulance Driver", ...."u talkin to me?"
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 03:31:07 PM by mikehunt »

AZOffaly

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Re: Pick your team> Kinahans or Hutches ?
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2016, 03:21:27 PM »
Does the buzz of a couple pints get weaker and have you ever thought "jeez I should consider some cocaine as the pints aren't getting it done for me"? I'd highly doubt it.

You've never gone onto the Shorts after a feed of pints? Do Alcholics not move from Beer to hard liquor quite regularly? And you've kind of added to the perception there. Most people who drink beer wouldn't jump from beer to cocaine. But a lot of people who use cocaine started out with cannabis.

I'm not sure there's causation, but I'm not sure there's not.

AZOffaly

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Re: Pick your team> Kinahans or Hutches ?
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2016, 03:24:56 PM »
So what about the link that says that most people who are cocaine/heroin users would have started off on Cannabis. If Cannabis wasn't there, would their first illegal drug be Cocaine or Heroin, or would they not be inclined to use either?

I would certainly see it as a possibility that someone who uses cannabis would be more predisposed to trying Cocaine. I doubt using Cannabis itself causes the urge, but I'm wondering if the initial step would be too big if they hadn't gotten comfortable using an illegal drug like cannabis.


I think we're saying More or less the same thing, AZ. But the link says that most people who are cocaine/heroin users would have started off on cannabis. That's probably not true. Most people who are cocaine/heroin users would have started off on nicotine and alcohol. The point is that they would have used all three drugs along the way, but the study only refers to their use of cannabis.

The difference? Legality and illegality. I suggest there is no "gateway" or conduit between cannabis and harder drugs, as postulated. What there is is a barrier between legal and illegal drugs. Which is why I think the argument that legalising cannabis would expose more people to harder drugs doesn't hold any water a all. If cannabis was legal, the barrier between, on the one hand, cannabis, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, etc. and, on the other hand, hard drugs would be as significant as the barrier between, say nicotine and cannabis is now.

OK, but it's harder to get cannabis than to get alcohol. Not difficult, but certainly not as easy. If that was made legal, and more people used a drug, do you not think more people would be more curious about Cocaine.

I'm no scientist, nor am I an expert on drugs. I've never smoked pot, nor have I the inclination to do so. I do drink, and I used to smoke cigarettes years ago. I just don't think we can be sure that exposing more people to cannabis would *not* lead to more of them trying other drugs later on. Even if it's not a direct cause and effect, and is more along the lines of 'ah sure Cannabis did me no harm, an auld line of coke isn't going to hurt me'.

Puckoon

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Re: Pick your team> Kinahans or Hutches ?
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2016, 03:28:50 PM »
Does the buzz of a couple pints get weaker and have you ever thought "jeez I should consider some cocaine as the pints aren't getting it done for me"? I'd highly doubt it.

You've never gone onto the Shorts after a feed of pints? Do Alcholics not move from Beer to hard liquor quite regularly? And you've kind of added to the perception there. Most people who drink beer wouldn't jump from beer to cocaine. But a lot of people who use cocaine started out with cannabis.

I'm not sure there's causation, but I'm not sure there's not.

Escalating in dosage of the substance is different than changing substances, which was the original argument unless I mis read it.

Not sure how I've added to perception, or what perception?
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AZOffaly

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Re: Pick your team> Kinahans or Hutches ?
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2016, 03:30:56 PM »
The perception that going from drink to cocaine is not a natural sounding gateway, whereas cannabis to cocaine is a more natural 'sounding' escalation.

seafoid

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Re: Pick your team> Kinahans or Hutches ?
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2016, 03:35:55 PM »
Are the hutches involved in drug dealing ?
I remember reading one of Paul Williams books who stated that gerry hutch was anti drugs
according to the Indo Gerry Hutch was an addict
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Hardy

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Re: Pick your team> Kinahans or Hutches ?
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2016, 03:36:30 PM »
So what about the link that says that most people who are cocaine/heroin users would have started off on Cannabis. If Cannabis wasn't there, would their first illegal drug be Cocaine or Heroin, or would they not be inclined to use either?

I would certainly see it as a possibility that someone who uses cannabis would be more predisposed to trying Cocaine. I doubt using Cannabis itself causes the urge, but I'm wondering if the initial step would be too big if they hadn't gotten comfortable using an illegal drug like cannabis.


I think we're saying More or less the same thing, AZ. But the link says that most people who are cocaine/heroin users would have started off on cannabis. That's probably not true. Most people who are cocaine/heroin users would have started off on nicotine and alcohol. The point is that they would have used all three drugs along the way, but the study only refers to their use of cannabis.

The difference? Legality and illegality. I suggest there is no "gateway" or conduit between cannabis and harder drugs, as postulated. What there is is a barrier between legal and illegal drugs. Which is why I think the argument that legalising cannabis would expose more people to harder drugs doesn't hold any water a all. If cannabis was legal, the barrier between, on the one hand, cannabis, alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, etc. and, on the other hand, hard drugs would be as significant as the barrier between, say nicotine and cannabis is now.

OK, but it's harder to get cannabis than to get alcohol. Not difficult, but certainly not as easy. If that was made legal, and more people used a drug, do you not think more people would be more curious about Cocaine.

I'm no scientist, nor am I an expert on drugs. I've never smoked pot, nor have I the inclination to do so. I do drink, and I used to smoke cigarettes years ago. I just don't think we can be sure that exposing more people to cannabis would *not* lead to more of them trying other drugs later on. Even if it's not a direct cause and effect, and is more along the lines of 'ah sure Cannabis did me no harm, an auld line of coke isn't going to hurt me'.

I'm not sure I understand your argument, AZ, unless you're suggesting that nicotine and alcohol are not drugs?

Quote
If that [cannabis] was made legal, and more people used a drug, do you not think more people would be more curious about Cocaine.

If cannabis was made legal how would its legal status make people more likely to be curious about cocaine any more than using legal drugs like nicotine and alcohol and caffeine makes them more curious about cocaine? Especially since nicotine and alcohol are far more powerful drugs than cannabis.
I studied deeply in the philosophies and religions, but cheerfulness kept breaking through - L.Cohen

Hardy

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Re: Pick your team> Kinahans or Hutches ?
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2016, 03:39:14 PM »
Are the hutches involved in drug dealing ?
I remember reading one of Paul Williams books who stated that gerry hutch was anti drugs
according to the Indo Gerry Hutch was an addict

According to the Indo, they interviewed Bishop Eamon Casey in South America.  Actually INTERVIEWED him and they ran the story with quotes on the front page.

Never happened.
I studied deeply in the philosophies and religions, but cheerfulness kept breaking through - L.Cohen

T Fearon

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Re: Pick your team> Kinahans or Hutches ?
« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2016, 03:46:20 PM »
Last weekend proved that booking hotels in Dublin on the wrong weekend has both plus and minus points!😅

Hardy

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Re: Pick your team> Kinahans or Hutches ?
« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2016, 03:50:36 PM »
What's the story with the boxing connection? Kinahan is a boxing promoter? What fight was he promoting?

Nothing about pro boxing would shock me (and this story confirms some prejudices based on some of the types who populate Irish pro boxing audiences). But who runs pro boxing in Ireland? Is there an official body and are they amenable to the Sports Council and if so what has the Sports Council to say about all this and what's the National Stadium doing hosting events put up by gangsters?
I studied deeply in the philosophies and religions, but cheerfulness kept breaking through - L.Cohen