Dual Citizenship

Started by Aerlik, May 22, 2007, 04:15:28 PM

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magickingdom

QuoteWith the Republic having relinquished its former territiorial claim, the Union remains solely in the hands of the people of NI. So barring some population shift which demographers think highly unlikely, the only way the Union will end is if the (Unionist) majority so wishes it.


eg, only needs a majority, about 10% of the unionist pop voting for it will do.. i agree with your point that it has to be an agreed ireland tho.

Gaoth Dobhair Abu

An agreed Ireland is a United Ireland - in any mans language.
Tbc....

stephenite

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 23, 2007, 01:07:03 PM
I'll happily reply "Ireland", if for no other reason than that I prefer to enjoy my Sam Adams in peace!

Who needs Spanish sputum in his Sam McGill?

Sorry to butt in, but have to ask what this means, obviously it's your pint/tipple but why Sam and what's the difference between Adams and McGill ?

Aerlik

"it appears incongruous to me that a proud Irish Republican and Citizen like Aerlik should consider his Irish Nationality inadequate both for himself and his son. Worse still, that he should seek to "augment" their Nationality by applying for nationality of a country which still has Queen Elizabeth as its Head of State. 
Further, I sense Aerlik's use of highly derogatory language for the Queen to be evidence of the self-same embarrassment..."

Fear not EG, my considering my Irish nationality and that of my son are major assets for us.  Not for us the shame of having to admit we're "british".  No, wherever I have gone in the world, my passport has been a massive advantage.  And if you read correctly you'll see that my son was born in Australia therefore entitling him to Aussie citizenship by birth.

And for a person as seemingly articulate and well-read as you are, surely YOU must cringe with embarrassment when you have to change your nationality to save your skin thanks to the antics of the British now and in the past.  The only good things to come from the British Empire are John Harrison and James Hind.

To find his equal an Irishman is forced to talk to God!

Fiodoir Ard Mhacha

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 23, 2007, 02:29:51 PM
Of course I'm an Irishman and I have no difficulty in admitting that openly, never mind via the anonymity of a Message Board.

I suppose the point I am trying to get across is that there are two equally valid Irish traditions (at least) on this island - those of Irish Nationalism and of Irish Unionism. And just because I adhere to the latter, doesn't make me any less "Irish". (Nor does my "Britishness", for that matter).

And if I had been born and brought up in the Irish Republic, I would have to accept that that tradition is dying in the Republic (if not already dead) and either find another affinity, or move elsewhere and adopt a new one.

But I'm not from down South, I am an Irish Unionist from Northern Ireland, which means I can preserve my tradition/heritage/identity (or whatever) with ease. Now, I'm not one of those individuals who sees things in "black and white" (Orange and Green). One side of my family derives originally from Scotland, the other from the Irish Midlands (pre-partition). I still have some distant relatives in the Republic, afaik. Nor does my Northern Irishness give me the right to deny my neighbour another affiliation should he choose differently.

But if required to choose one from the many designations which might apply to me, (NI, Ulster, Irish, British etc) the one I choose is "Norn Iron", since that is what best defines me, for better or worse. That's all, really.

Re. some of your technical points, there is no "NI Passport, as such. But neither is there a Scottish, Welsh or English one, either; the absence of same does not make us any less Scot/Welsh/Eng/NI. Instead, we all share equally the same Passport, that of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

As for:
"And whilst in one sense Northern Irishness is a "state of mind", it is not merely that, never mind some figment of my imagination, since it also has tangible expression e.g. Passport, Taxation, Voting Rights, Courts of Law etc.(Indeed, I can comfortably argue that Northern Irishness has more practical, day-to-day relevance to your average NI Nationalist, then his Irish citizenship has to him!)"

I did not mean by this special legislation applying to NI. Rather, it was more simple. When a Nationalist from NI goes e.g. to tax his car, pay his TV Licence, make his Tax Return, stamp a letter etc etc, he does so in the same place and manner as his (Unionist) NI neighbour. Should he be up in Court for any reason, it is British law which will be appied. And when he goes to vote, it will be to a British administrative body, at one level or another.

With occasional exceptions or idiosyncracies, all of these will be different from his fellow Irish citizen in the Republic - even when the other is maybe only two miles up the road. Considering the consequences of these circumstances, along with long held geographical and cultural factors, in my experience, your average Northern Nationalist often has more in common with his Northern Unionist neighbour than he does with Nationalists in the Republic.

As for the concept of the "United Kingdom", or Britishness generally, rather like the British Constitution, these can be hard to define; that does not mean they cease to exist or matter, however.

On a day-to-day basis, most "Brits" see themselves as English, Scot, Welsh or NI etc. However, there are certain circumstances when their Britishness comes to the fore, and institutions or ceremonies reflect this. The most obvious example is the Monarchy. Another is the Armed Forces. The BBC, various sports teams and the shared language are others. The attachment to the Pound Sterling is another; even such relatively unimportant factors such as the inability of the EU to replace the old Imperial measures fully with metric measures is an indicator (or when did you last hear of someone nipping into their local for a "swift quarter litre"?).

I don't want to sound like John Major, wittering on about cricket, spinsters on bicycles and warm beer etc., but when foreign visitors come to these islands, they invariably fail to see the differences which are often so apparent to us; they are more often struck by the similarities.

Naturally, I recognise that there are at least two traditions in Ireland - I say, at least two - and that's what it's all about. But I can't for the life of me think that I could ever be Irish, northern Irish and British all at the same time. It just smacks too much of, to quote Jeffrey Donaldson, 'cherry picking' to suit the situation. I'm proud to be Irish, particularly when I am abroad. Not out of some 'ooo, ahhh, up the ra' pseudo uber-republican Wolfe Toner, though I believe a united Ireland is the ultimate solution to our 'troubles'. Yes, I also believe in consensus, but people can be persuaded, in modern politics, to accept changes that would have been anathema to their forefathers. Like a United Ireland. You'd need to have been on the moon to have missed the 360 degree somersaults power-hungry northern politicians have made in the lead up to 8 May.

I agree that northern Nationalists have more in common with their Unionist neighbours - but we play the game - what choice have we at the moment than to use the British-imposed institutions to live our lives. I differ from Eamon McCann in that I believe in evolution, not revolution. That's human nature's way of changing - gradually. But I see this as a transition period. I don't want to force my Irishness down anyone's throats but, at the same time, there is an Irish solution here to the 'Irish problem'. And it's happening, right now.

I respect your right to call yourself northern Irish. Of course, I disagree, but I respect your right. I guess the Unionist mindset has made considerable advances to accept the right of 'northern-based' nationalists to see themselves - ourselves - as Irish - and, in time, I expect the full (legislative) rights of an Irish government to enshrine this. In the meantime, as long as the debate is healthy, as it is in here, most of the time, I'll contribute my case.
"Something wrong with your eyes?....
Yes, they're sensitive to questions!"

Evil Genius

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on May 23, 2007, 11:29:01 PM
An agreed Ireland is a United Ireland - in any mans language.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but for me, Ireland will never be "united", except with the agreement of all its people.
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

MW

Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on May 24, 2007, 08:53:52 AMI respect your right to call yourself northern Irish.

Hmm...what about calling himself Northern Irish?

Have to admit I still don't quite 'get' the Irishness of the likes of EG.

MW

Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on May 23, 2007, 11:42:44 AMWhen away on holiday, do you instantly describe yourself to the locals as a Northern Irishman? I would imagine many people on mainland Europe or the Americas would be mightily confused by this. I say Irish because I am and because it makes it clear to them where I am from. Would you really, all joking aside, describe yourself ever as British to someone in Spain or Germany, France or the States?

If I'm asked what country I'm from, I automatically say Northern Ireland. Basically all of the people I grew up with would automatically give Northern Irish as their identity. (Though interestingly I and I would say plenty of others like me would give British as their nationality, if specifically asked for 'nationality'). There's a whole gamut of permutations to be run through in terms of being aboard and people nuderstanding the concept of Northern Ireland, right through to people not even getting references to 'Britain' or 'Ireland'...'near England' seems to be the lowest common denominator in my experience)

Evil Genius

Quote from: Aerlik on May 24, 2007, 02:12:57 AM
Not for us the shame of having to admit we're "british". 

And for a person as seemingly articulate and well-read as you are, surely YOU must cringe with embarrassment when you have to change your nationality to save your skin thanks to the antics of the British now and in the past. 

The only good things to come from the British Empire are John Harrison and James Hind.

Whilst never a tub thumper for Queen & Country etc, neither am I "ashamed" to be British, either.

In fact, I'm quite happy with my Nationality, thank you; then again, you're the guy taking out citizenship of another country, not me...

As for the British Empire, your choice of "heroes" is an interesting one. I assume you chose Hind because he tried to assassinate Cromwell. Fair enough, we'll overlook the fact that he was an armed robber by trade (and choice). And Harrison was certainly an admirable bloke, but is he really the only inventor/scientist to grab your attention?

How about Newton (Physics), Babbage (Computer), Stevenson/Hackworth (Locomotives), Brunel (Trains, Ships & God Knows What Else), Rutherford (Physics), Fleming (Penicillin), Logie Baird (TV)? (And those are off the top of the head of someone who was crap at Science)

In fact, were it not for Alan Turing inventing the world's first programmable computer and Tim Berners-Lee the (free) World Wide Web, we wouldn't be able to conduct this debate in the first place. In English, the language of the Oppressor.  

"Pah! What did the Romans ever do for us?" - John Cleese, (British Comedian)
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Evil Genius

#39
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on May 24, 2007, 08:53:52 AM
Naturally, I recognise that there are at least two traditions in Ireland - I say, at least two - and that's what it's all about. But I can't for the life of me think that I could ever be Irish, northern Irish and British all at the same time. It just smacks too much of, to quote Jeffrey Donaldson, 'cherry picking' to suit the situation. I'm proud to be Irish, particularly when I am abroad. Not out of some 'ooo, ahhh, up the ra' pseudo uber-republican Wolfe Toner, though I believe a united Ireland is the ultimate solution to our 'troubles'. Yes, I also believe in consensus, but people can be persuaded, in modern politics, to accept changes that would have been anathema to their forefathers. Like a United Ireland. You'd need to have been on the moon to have missed the 360 degree somersaults power-hungry northern politicians have made in the lead up to 8 May.

I agree that northern Nationalists have more in common with their Unionist neighbours - but we play the game - what choice have we at the moment than to use the British-imposed institutions to live our lives. I differ from Eamon McCann in that I believe in evolution, not revolution. That's human nature's way of changing - gradually. But I see this as a transition period. I don't want to force my Irishness down anyone's throats but, at the same time, there is an Irish solution here to the 'Irish problem'. And it's happening, right now.

I respect your right to call yourself northern Irish. Of course, I disagree, but I respect your right. I guess the Unionist mindset has made considerable advances to accept the right of 'northern-based' nationalists to see themselves - ourselves - as Irish - and, in time, I expect the full (legislative) rights of an Irish government to enshrine this. In the meantime, as long as the debate is healthy, as it is in here, most of the time, I'll contribute my case.

Well, we're arriving at the nub of the issue. As an Irish Unionist, I consider my heritage and place in Ireland is every bit as valid and worthy as that of any other tradition. And like all other traditions, all I require is to be able to follow it without having to apologise/compromise/defend/fight for it with any other.

Of course, the exact same applies to the Irish Nationalist tradition. As such, I consider it a shame that Nationalism both came to feel that it could not exist comfortably within the United Kingdom (whether by Home Rule or some other means) and had to fight a war of independence.

But just as the UK was not capable of satisfying three quarters of Ireland's population, the "Free State" of 1921 was never going to be "free" for the other quarter. Consequently, it was only in a Northern Ireland which was part of the UK we could be sure to avoid going the same way as those fellow Unionists who were left on the "wrong" side of the Border i.e. oblivion.

Which, 80-odd years later, is where we are now, only with the position of NI more secure than at any time in its existence (imo).

So what next? I personally feel that the present settlement will prevail for the foreseeable future. You, naturally enough, look to a future based without partition, which is fair enough. But notwithstanding the enormity of the changes which have recently occurred, I can predict with certainty that if the only version of a "United [sic] Ireland" on offer is that envisaged by the likes of Sinn Fein, then to use a well-worn Ulsterism, it will NEVER come about.

If, on the other hand, any new Ireland is the product of a tolerant, prosperous, pluralistic and agreed settlement, then who knows? But think on this: even if the Republic could come up with an arrangement to which Unionists might just be amenable, what guarantee is there that it ever will?

That is, considering the apathy towards, and disconnection from, all things Norn Iron which increasingly exists in the present day Republic of Ireland, particularly amongst the young, it might just turn out that persuading the North's Unionists to budge might be the easy part. It will be the problem of persuading Bertie and his Friends which could put the kibosh on things - especially when they are presented with the Bill!*  :D


* - We can be pretty certain that Westminster will be in no mood to provide a Dowry, the EU has now got considerably poorer places to worry about than Ireland and I wouldn't be too hopeful that the Yanks will pick up the tab, at least until they're hauled what remains of their ass out of Iraq!  ;)
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

armaghniac

QuoteWell, we're arriving at the nub of the issue. As an Irish Unionist, I consider my heritage and place in Ireland is every bit as valid and worthy as any other tradition. And like all other traditions, all I require is to be able to follow it without having to apologise/compromise/defend/fight for it with any other.

You've haven't addressed the issue of why the advantages of the Union justifies partition.

Quotethe "Free State" of 1921 was never going to be "free" for the other quarter

Why not? It was not a colonial arrangement, Ireland as a whole would have been based on straightforward principles of a recognisable geographic area with universal franchise.

If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

GweylTah

Quote from: Aerlik on May 24, 2007, 02:12:57 AMThe only good things to come from the British Empire are John Harrison and James Hind.




When a line like that is uttered, even an ounce of wisdom is shown to have been an illusion.

SammyG

Quote from: armaghniac on May 24, 2007, 07:43:00 PMYou've haven't addressed the issue of why the advantages of the Union justifies partition.

Bizarre double-speak alert. Even if there were absolutely no advantages to the Union it would still have nothing whatsoever to do with whether NI should join the Republic. There are probably economic advantages to Spain joining Portugal but it's not likely to happen. The issue of nationality has nothing to do with 'advantages' it has to do with were you're born and bred. Somebody born in Rio probably doesn't have the same advantages as somebody born in New York but they're still Brazillian.

ziggysego

Quote from: SammyG on May 24, 2007, 08:23:34 PMSomebody born in Rio probably doesn't have the same advantages as somebody born in New York but they're still Brazillian.

So you're admitting that the Union is a disadvantage?


















































Couldn't help it, just stirring!  :D
Testing Accessibility

SammyG

Quote from: ziggysego on May 24, 2007, 08:27:28 PM
Quote from: SammyG on May 24, 2007, 08:23:34 PMSomebody born in Rio probably doesn't have the same advantages as somebody born in New York but they're still Brazillian.

So you're admitting that the Union is a disadvantage?

No I'm saying it's totally irrelevant whether it is an advantage or a disadvantage.

Quote from: ziggysego on May 24, 2007, 08:27:28 PM
Couldn't help it, just stirring!  :D

I know.