Author Topic: Catalan Independence Movement  (Read 4970 times)

seafoid

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2017, 09:09:35 PM »
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.


Exactly.

Seamus, you are normally sensible but Gallsman is right.

Madrid's reaction has been unbelievably stupid in my view. They should allow a referendum with 2/3 majority required for independence. There wouldn't be a hope of that and issue could be put to bed. Unfortunately 50%+1 doesn't cut it.

While there has long been a longing among a fair part of the population for independence, Cataluņa has never been independent. It's economic prosperity has also been built on the backbone of massive immigration from the rest of Spain, particularly from the 50s-70s.

Frankly I find it all very self interested and primarily based on financial interests i.e. They don't want to support those "lazy Andalusian" any more. Despite what I said above. It is no coincidence this has fired up not so long after La Crisis.

The leaders of the independence movement are a deceitful shower of c*nts, in the same way as the Brexit leadership. These guys have been lining their pockets for years in the same way politicians in the rest of the country have. Same lies about what a brave new economic world they will be in, yet Cataluņa apparently exports more to Aragon than to whole of France.

And all this crap about remaining part of the EU. The EU has been very clear that they won't be. Probably a whole other debate about whether that is fair or not but the misinformation and spin is disheartening and dishonest.
50+1 is stupid. Just look at Brexit
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gallsman

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2017, 10:08:41 PM »
Lots out on the streets tonight.
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

Gold

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2017, 12:01:57 AM »
Lots out on the streets tonight.

You for or against ?
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Eamonnca1

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2017, 12:03:50 AM »
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.


Exactly.

Seamus, you are normally sensible but Gallsman is right.

Madrid's reaction has been unbelievably stupid in my view. They should allow a referendum with 2/3 majority required for independence. There wouldn't be a hope of that and issue could be put to bed. Unfortunately 50%+1 doesn't cut it.

While there has long been a longing among a fair part of the population for independence, Cataluņa has never been independent. It's economic prosperity has also been built on the backbone of massive immigration from the rest of Spain, particularly from the 50s-70s.

Frankly I find it all very self interested and primarily based on financial interests i.e. They don't want to support those "lazy Andalusian" any more. Despite what I said above. It is no coincidence this has fired up not so long after La Crisis.

The leaders of the independence movement are a deceitful shower of c*nts, in the same way as the Brexit leadership. These guys have been lining their pockets for years in the same way politicians in the rest of the country have. Same lies about what a brave new economic world they will be in, yet Cataluņa apparently exports more to Aragon than to whole of France.

And all this crap about remaining part of the EU. The EU has been very clear that they won't be. Probably a whole other debate about whether that is fair or not but the misinformation and spin is disheartening and dishonest.

Why? Why give a veto to a third of the voters? Would you be okay for a 2/3 majority requirement for people in Northern Ireland voting in a border poll?

gallsman

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2017, 12:42:29 AM »
Lots out on the streets tonight.

You for or against ?

I've no preference one way or the other as I'll likely be long gone before anything happens.

However, if I was forced to choose, I'd fall on the side of No. I've no cultural affiliation so would vote on the political and economic implications alone. Again though, that risks being to simplistic. The guy who sits next to me in work is born and raised in Barcelona. So were his wife and his parents. They speak Spanish at home (obviously can speak catalan too). He is both Catalan and Spanish, and proud to be both. He can't hang out a Spanish flag the way his neighbours hang out an independence flag without getting abuse from neighbors. His kids can't go to a school where they speak Spanish. The whole myth presented to the outside world is that too be Catalan is to be Pro independence.

Why? Why give a veto to a third of the voters? Would you be okay for a 2/3 majority requirement for people in Northern Ireland voting in a border poll?

Supermajorities are an established concept established to ensure that proposed changes have not just majority support but overwhelming majority support. If 50.001% of an electorate can change a constitution, what happens the day after, when a few of them change their mind? Or a few thousand new voters are eligible who would have voted the other way?

If you can't understand this, well...
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

vallankumous

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2017, 07:52:56 AM »


Supermajorities are an established concept established to ensure that proposed changes have not just majority support but overwhelming majority support. If 50.001% of an electorate can change a constitution, what happens the day after, when a few of them change their mind? Or a few thousand new voters are eligible who would have voted the other way?

If you can't understand this, well...

Yes, there is no right or wrong in this. The fallacy that democracy = just = good. It is our best model but the idea is different from the reality and it's too easy to hide behind the idea.



JPGJOHNNYG

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2017, 08:17:53 AM »
Lots out on the streets tonight.

You for or against ?

I've no preference one way or the other as I'll likely be long gone before anything happens.

However, if I was forced to choose, I'd fall on the side of No. I've no cultural affiliation so would vote on the political and economic implications alone. Again though, that risks being to simplistic. The guy who sits next to me in work is born and raised in Barcelona. So were his wife and his parents. They speak Spanish at home (obviously can speak catalan too). He is both Catalan and Spanish, and proud to be both. He can't hang out a Spanish flag the way his neighbours hang out an independence flag without getting abuse from neighbors. His kids can't go to a school where they speak Spanish. The whole myth presented to the outside world is that too be Catalan is to be Pro independence.

Why? Why give a veto to a third of the voters? Would you be okay for a 2/3 majority requirement for people in Northern Ireland voting in a border poll?

Supermajorities are an established concept established to ensure that proposed changes have not just majority support but overwhelming majority support. If 50.001% of an electorate can change a constitution, what happens the day after, when a few of them change their mind? Or a few thousand new voters are eligible who would have voted the other way?

If you can't understand this, well...

Well if the sample is big enough then those changing their mind or new voters joining the sample should reflect the breakdown. Doesnt always happen like that though as for example younger voters would be pro EU or pro Scottish independence etc. I'm also presuming a 50.0001% will result in a re-run. Like it or not 50%+1 is the only answer. Supermajorities sounds like a doomsday plan schemed up by the DUP along with repartition

JPGJOHNNYG

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2017, 08:23:26 AM »
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.


Exactly.

Seamus, you are normally sensible but Gallsman is right.

Madrid's reaction has been unbelievably stupid in my view. They should allow a referendum with 2/3 majority required for independence. There wouldn't be a hope of that and issue could be put to bed. Unfortunately 50%+1 doesn't cut it.

While there has long been a longing among a fair part of the population for independence, Cataluņa has never been independent. It's economic prosperity has also been built on the backbone of massive immigration from the rest of Spain, particularly from the 50s-70s.

Frankly I find it all very self interested and primarily based on financial interests i.e. They don't want to support those "lazy Andalusian" any more. Despite what I said above. It is no coincidence this has fired up not so long after La Crisis.

The leaders of the independence movement are a deceitful shower of c*nts, in the same way as the Brexit leadership. These guys have been lining their pockets for years in the same way politicians in the rest of the country have. Same lies about what a brave new economic world they will be in, yet Cataluņa apparently exports more to Aragon than to whole of France.

And all this crap about remaining part of the EU. The EU has been very clear that they won't be. Probably a whole other debate about whether that is fair or not but the misinformation and spin is disheartening and dishonest.
50+1 is stupid. Just look at Brexit

It was only stupid because Cameron didn't actually bother to think brexit might happen. It wasn't a vote for a or b. People voted for whatever fantasy they were allowed to believe may happen - farce

CiKe

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2017, 09:28:30 AM »
http://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_three_myths_about_catalonias_independence_movement

Excellent article that anyone looking from the outside in would do well to read. In my view Cataluņa has been hijacked by a handful of manipulative, populist politicians. Am no fan of Rajoy's but the Spanish constitution gives him no option but to do all he can to defend unity. The people riding roughshod over democratic process are guys like Puidgemont and Juncosa.

Eamonn when there was civil war on the streets, as a Catholic nationalist, I would have said 50%+1 fine. The argument can hardly be made that we are second class citizens now and a 50%+1 vote would see innocent Catholics die by the dozens in fairly short order I would think, so no, I wouldn't be in favour of it.

Maybe 2/3 is too much but Cataluņa overwhelmingly supported reform of the constitution in 77. Look at the historic opinion polls over last 10-15 years (see the economist this week), and to me it is clear this is about economics more than anything else.

seafoid

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2017, 10:11:30 AM »
Lots out on the streets tonight.

You for or against ?

I've no preference one way or the other as I'll likely be long gone before anything happens.

However, if I was forced to choose, I'd fall on the side of No. I've no cultural affiliation so would vote on the political and economic implications alone. Again though, that risks being to simplistic. The guy who sits next to me in work is born and raised in Barcelona. So were his wife and his parents. They speak Spanish at home (obviously can speak catalan too). He is both Catalan and Spanish, and proud to be both. He can't hang out a Spanish flag the way his neighbours hang out an independence flag without getting abuse from neighbors. His kids can't go to a school where they speak Spanish. The whole myth presented to the outside world is that too be Catalan is to be Pro independence.

Why? Why give a veto to a third of the voters? Would you be okay for a 2/3 majority requirement for people in Northern Ireland voting in a border poll?

Supermajorities are an established concept established to ensure that proposed changes have not just majority support but overwhelming majority support. If 50.001% of an electorate can change a constitution, what happens the day after, when a few of them change their mind? Or a few thousand new voters are eligible who would have voted the other way?

If you can't understand this, well...

Well if the sample is big enough then those changing their mind or new voters joining the sample should reflect the breakdown. Doesnt always happen like that though as for example younger voters would be pro EU or pro Scottish independence etc. I'm also presuming a 50.0001% will result in a re-run. Like it or not 50%+1 is the only answer. Supermajorities sounds like a doomsday plan schemed up by the DUP along with repartition
The thing about Brexit is the voters were not informed. Cameron thought it would be a piece of piss. the people were angry. they decided to protest.
the Tories hadn't planned anything. The country was thrown into a process that was not good for it.
Now maybe only 40% of people want Brexit.

NI is different. It is not economic. And it is polarised.
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StGallsGAA

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2017, 10:30:17 AM »
Presumably if Catalonia goes the Basques will be next?   

gallsman

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2017, 10:35:34 AM »
Presumably if Catalonia goes the Basques will be next?

No. Completely different independence question altogether.
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

CiKe

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2017, 12:16:28 PM »
Presumably if Catalonia goes the Basques will be next?

No. Completely different independence question altogether.

Why? If Cataluņa goes, the chances of basques going increases exponentially I would think

gallsman

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2017, 12:40:17 PM »
Presumably if Catalonia goes the Basques will be next?

No. Completely different independence question altogether.

Why? If Cataluņa goes, the chances of basques going increases exponentially I would think

If it goes, it sets constitutional and legislative precedent. Beyond that, the two independence movements are completely different.
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armaghniac

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2017, 10:07:58 AM »
The different parts of Spain are the problem. Most Catalans would probably settle for devo max, but it is tricky when every part of Spain has a different level of autonomy.
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B