Author Topic: Catalan Independence Movement  (Read 6937 times)

omaghjoe

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #150 on: October 12, 2017, 08:20:49 PM »
Any chance we could get back on topic?

Whats the latest with  this? Couldnt make head nor tail of this latest episode, is it they have signed the independence bill but just haven't announced it?

It seems like Madrid are equally confused.

It almost seems like the Catalans are trying to egg on the Spanish to do something stupid that would cause complete outrage, and strangely enough the Spanish seem to be complying.

Is there still a way back at this point or is the whole deteriorating towards a political impass?

armaghniac

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #151 on: October 12, 2017, 10:39:34 PM »
the Catalan referendum was a bit like Brexit, winning the referendum was the easy bit.
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

north_antrim_hound

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #152 on: October 13, 2017, 01:31:23 PM »
the Catalan referendum was a bit like Brexit, winning the referendum was the easy bit.

Exactly that's the crux of it

Sorry for going if topic but "Ruth Avondhu  Edwards " was deviateing to express his disdain for all things northern nationalist
A bigger bigot up here would be hard to find

Clov

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #153 on: October 13, 2017, 02:22:04 PM »
This is well worth a listen for anyone interested in where this is going.
https://www.talkingpoliticspodcast.com/blog/2017/63-catalonia
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Main Street

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #154 on: October 13, 2017, 04:42:28 PM »
the Catalan referendum was a bit like Brexit, winning the referendum was the easy bit.

Exactly that's the crux of it

The problem with the Catalan referendum was that it was not a free and fair referendum. There was serious tampering with the election mechanism, whether by word (Spanish government) or by deed, the obstruction by the police and other agencies.
The mandate from the ballots cast, falls short and is not enough to empower a decl of independence.






« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 08:09:50 PM by Main Street »

screenexile

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #155 on: October 27, 2017, 03:56:16 PM »
Un Parlament fracturado declara la independencia!!!

Syferus

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #156 on: October 27, 2017, 05:10:44 PM »
I really can’t believe how massively Spain fûcked this up. I’m sure if the Catalan government were being honest they’d say they expected this sabre-rattling to lead to talks and concessions from Madraid, but the central government seems intent on doing everything in its power to enflame the situation and harden the pro-Indepenance movement’s stance.

The last thing the EU needs at the moment is more instability in one of the major countries, they stemmed the right-wing tide somewhat earlier in the year only to walk into another set of crisises.

seafoid

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #157 on: October 27, 2017, 06:40:09 PM »
The referendum was unconstitutional but the Spanish reaction is very heavy handed. This a battle for hearts and minds. Now Article 155 has been invoked. Direct rule. Will Catalan police follow orders?

We really need a new economic system.
"you can try and intimidate us, but f**k youse, we're going to win an All-Ireland anyway"

manfromdelmonte

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #158 on: October 27, 2017, 07:31:39 PM »
Spain is still dealing with the fall out from Franco

the regions and their cultures and languages were suppressed for decades and have been slowly gaining more prominence since the new state was formed
it was inevitable that these regions would move towards independence
the recent actions of the central government have hastened this

trileacman

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #159 on: October 27, 2017, 07:50:07 PM »
I really can’t believe how massively Spain fûcked this up. I’m sure if the Catalan government were being honest they’d say they expected this sabre-rattling to lead to talks and concessions from Madraid, but the central government seems intent on doing everything in its power to enflame the situation and harden the pro-Indepenance movement’s stance.

The last thing the EU needs at the moment is more instability in one of the major countries, they stemmed the right-wing tide somewhat earlier in the year only to walk into another set of crisises.

This is not the eu’s problem and they will not and should not wade in on a domestic affair. If they did the populist cry would be “look at the unelected eu technocrats meddling in Catalonian independence”.
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seafoid

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #160 on: October 27, 2017, 08:16:13 PM »
I think Catalonia is also a Eurozone issue. Austerity has heightened the differences between prosperous and poorer regions. In northern  Italy , Veneto is looking for more autonomy. Rajoy has followed the ECB'S orders. Protecting the assets of the rich . Boosting polarisation. SFA growth. Where there is no growth, politics get very messy.
The Eurozone must be reformed to focus on people rather than debt.
"you can try and intimidate us, but f**k youse, we're going to win an All-Ireland anyway"

trileacman

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #161 on: October 27, 2017, 08:25:06 PM »
Gallsman has probably long since abandoned this thread but if not I’d love an update of his views on the way this has progressed.
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gallsman

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #162 on: October 27, 2017, 09:28:11 PM »
Not really sure what to say. Puigdemont's move took me by surprise until this morning. Genuinely didn't think he'd do it. It's all still just posturing for now - what the invocation of 155 will actually mean in reality remains to be seen.

I presume Rajoy will push ahead and look to arrest Puigdemont and the likes of Junqueras and Forcadell. How that happens will be very interesting as I imagine they won't be going or be let go lightly. How the Mossos behave will be telling.

One thing for everyone to bear in mind is that the separatist collation in power in Catalunya is made up of several parties from various political slants with no reason to trust or align with one another apart from their Catalan nationalism. Given the various stresses and pressures they'll be under, depending on how direct role goes, that coalition could begin to fracture.
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give her dixie

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #163 on: October 28, 2017, 01:20:47 AM »
Rebels in Solidarity: An Irish Hunger Striker and Catalonia, 1920
by PAULINE MURPHY

While watching the brutal way Spain suppressed the will of the Catalan people on the first day of October 2017 a quote came to my mind:

‘It is not those who inflict the most but those that endure the most that shall prevail.’

That apt observation came from the pen of Terence MacSwiney, an Irish revolutionary who died after 74 days on hunger strike in Brixton Prison in 1920. His death gave rise to widespread outrage, including in Catalonia.

MacSwiney had been serving as the Lord Mayor of Cork when in the Autumn of 1920 he was arrested by British authorities and started a hunger strike. MacSwiney continued his hunger strike when he was sent across the Irish sea to languish in a British prison and garnered support from many across the globe including in the northeastern part of Spain where a nation of people were longing for their own independence.

MacSwiney died on October 25th 1920 and his death was mourned by those in Catalonia who had been closely following the hunger strike of the rebel Lord Mayor. During MacSwiney’s hunger strike daily updates filled Catalan newspapers while masses were said for the Irishman and public demonstrations filled the streets. When news of MacSwiney’s death reached Catalonia a state of mourning kicked in. Women wore black, flags were flown at half mast and on October 27th grief turned into protest when up to 500 Catalans marched on the British Consulate in Barcelona.

Waving a tri-colour Irish flag, the crowd marched to the British consulate while chanting ‘Viva Irlanda, muera Inglaterra!’ ( long live Ireland, death to England!) The consulate had closed its doors as the consul general was not in and when the marchers reached the closed building they flung stones and broke all the windows. The angry protesters dispersed when the heavy handed guardia civil arrived on the scene. Days later the consul general wrote to London to divulge his utter disgust at how Catalans sided with the cause of Irish freedom. He informed London how the consulate in Barcelona was “now guarded by a strong force of police and guardia civil who shall remain until the local excitement over the so called martyrdom of MacSwiney has subsided.” But the ‘local excitement’ did not subside because just days later a mass rally in support of the martyred MacSwiney was held in Catalan capital.

On November 1st 1920, thousands attended a rally in Barcelona to show their support for Irish independence and their grief for MacSwiney.  It was organised by the trade union CADCI (Central Autonomista de Dependents del Comerc i la Industrial) and the guest of honour was Sinn Fein’s representative in Spain Maire ni Bhriain but, it was the recital of a poem that became the highlight of the day.

The Catalan playwright, poet and politician Ventura Gassol had been asked by the CADCI to compose a poem in honour of MacSwiney and he delivered ‘Germd Nostre’ (our brother) from a balcony draped in an Irish tri-colour flag in the main square in Barcelona. Gassol’s poem was based on an old Catalan folksong ‘La Preso de Lleida’ (Lleida Prison) and as he delivered it to the thousands assembled, a sustained applause broke out after each verse, such as the intense emotion. A report in the Catalan journal L’Accio described how “the poet Ventura Gassol gave a magnificent reading of a most beautiful original poem exalting the towering deed of the Lord Mayor of Cork, producing among those present a deep emotion.”

Before MacSwiney succumbed to his hunger strike, the CADCI had sent a letter to the British prime minister Loyld George  to vent their frustration with Britains brutal response to Irelands fight for freedom. Dated September 1st 1920 the letter from the CADCI informed the British PM  ‘our organisation, consisting of 8,000 members……….wishes to make its voice heard by you, in order, to express the concern of all Catalonia for the heroic, sublime and now tragic gesture of the Lord Mayor of Cork…..and his unbending will to sacrifice his life on behalf of his ideal of nationhood.’

In the aftermath of MacSwiney’s death, town council’s across Catalonia passed motions of condolence to MacSwiney’s family and expressions of support for the Irish Republican movement. The town council in Figueres passed a motion of ‘admiration of the glorious death of the Lord Mayor of Cork and other patriotic Irishmen who have died in English prison, that our adhesion to the liberty of people and the inviolable rules of justice may be proclaimed.’ The mayor of Villafranca del Panades sent a letter to 10 Downing Street condemning those there for the death of MacSwiney.  The British replied by requesting the Spanish government to punish local authorities across Catalonia who publicly support Irish Republicans.

Apart from letters to the British PM and public displays of support, Catalonia also sent condolences directly to the MacSwiney family in Cork. A letter of condolence was sent to MacSwiney’s widow from the Directive Council of Nostra Parla in Barcelona. The message of condolence dated December 1st 1920 to Mrs MacSwiney informed her that her husband’s ‘martyrdom will be an example for all people that, so as ours, feel a foreign domination.’ MacSwiney’s two year old daughter was also in the thoughts of Catalans and they sent her a doll which is now displayed at the public museum in Cork City.

The poem that Ventura Gassol wrote and recited with great emotion in Barcelona on All Saints day in 1920 highlighted the similarities between Ireland and Catalonia in their quest for self determination, a quest still not completed for many Catalans to this day. The following lines from Gassol’s poem describe how through death MacSwiney forced an opening through the prison walls and how his fight for freedom is inspiring to Catalans who are yet to find an escape from their imprisonment…..

Al cor ombros d’Irlanda
N’hi ha una gran preso:
que ja no hi queden presos,
que no n’hi queden, no.
MacSwiney, blanc de cara,
gelet encar de la suor de mort,
Ha obert un esvoranc a les muralles,
i cel amunt se’ls va enduent a tots….
Espirit de MacSwiney, germa nostre,
Oh, si tambe ens obrissiu la preso!
next stop, September 10, for number 4......

vallankumous

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #164 on: October 28, 2017, 08:31:28 AM »
Not really sure what to say. Puigdemont's move took me by surprise until this morning. Genuinely didn't think he'd do it. It's all still just posturing for now - what the invocation of 155 will actually mean in reality remains to be seen.

I presume Rajoy will push ahead and look to arrest Puigdemont and the likes of Junqueras and Forcadell. How that happens will be very interesting as I imagine they won't be going or be let go lightly. How the Mossos behave will be telling.

One thing for everyone to bear in mind is that the separatist collation in power in Catalunya is made up of several parties from various political slants with no reason to trust or align with one another apart from their Catalan nationalism. Given the various stresses and pressures they'll be under, depending on how direct role goes, that coalition could begin to fracture.

This is no different than any independence movement.
It's only a problem after you win.