Author Topic: Catalan Independence Movement  (Read 6924 times)

magpie seanie

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2017, 12:46:43 PM »
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I haven't criticised anyone. I'm playing devil's advocate you complete f**king numpty.


Cracker.

gallsman

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2017, 12:48:00 PM »
Is this in correlation with the growing Catalan economy?
Are the independence movement credited with the growing regional economy or is it seen as Spanish aided?

Catalunya has always been comparatively prosperous to the rest of the country, greater Madrid excluded. I wouldn't say the independence movement is particularly credited but there is obviously widespread disatisfaction (with perhaps some justification) with Catalans paying more than their fair share.
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gallsman

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2017, 12:49:01 PM »
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.


Exactly.

Feel free to actually engage on the points. Who do you hope gets their independence? Why?

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I haven't criticised anyone. I'm playing devil's advocate you complete f**king numpty.


Cracker.

Congratulations, you get jokes.
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guy crouchback

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2017, 03:40:04 PM »
if the EU could agree in advance processes to incorporate separatist areas from existing  EU states directly into the union, it could provide a simple road map for this.

sure the lager countries would not be too happy about it but if its the will of the people they cannot really object. plus the EU could agree a mechanisms to off set financial loss (oil or gas or wherever).

its not that long ago that Europe was more city states or small provinces then nations. especially in central Europe the notion of nationality is a reasonably new one.

its hard to see why separatist regions could not be seamlessly incorporated into the Eu if they already send representatives to the European Parliament.

this is off the top of my head stuff so there is a lot of holes in it but i cannot see any massive roadblocks to it.

Eamonnca1

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2017, 05:12:54 PM »
Czechoslovakia split in two so peacefully that many people didn't even notice. If Spain were to let go of its regions then I hope it does so peacefully, but right now the way the Spanish government is handling this looks a bit ominous. There are powerful forces they're dealing with. They'd be well advised to tread carefully.

dec

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2017, 07:52:27 PM »
If Catalonia becomes independent will FC Barcelona leave La Liga? Will that be the end of El Classico other than in Europe and Barcelona win the Catalan double every year?

gallsman

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2017, 08:04:23 PM »
If Catalonia becomes independent will FC Barcelona leave La Liga? Will that be the end of El Classico other than in Europe and Barcelona win the Catalan double every year?

Almost certainly not. It's too lucrative for everyone involved.
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red hander

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2017, 08:25:52 PM »
I know the Basques will be looking at this closely, but are there any other regions of Spain where this could impact. I'm thinking maybe of Galicia. I don't know that much, but I believe there's a strong Celtic influence in that region. I'm just interested as I did a bit of travelling in the interior (as opposed to the resorts) in my time, and always preferred Madrid and its vibe to Barcelona

Avondhu star

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2017, 10:17:28 PM »
If Catalonia becomes independent will FC Barcelona leave La Liga? Will that be the end of El Classico other than in Europe and Barcelona win the Catalan double every year?

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omaghjoe

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2017, 10:52:10 PM »
Ive been following it sporadically and Im wondering what’s the difference with this and the last referendum a few years back that Madrid called as illegal but went ahead anyway?

Didn’t the pro independence Catalan MPs sign a pact that they would declare sovereignty if not allowed a legally binding referendum? Aren’t they in a majority? Are they likely to follow through with this?

Also I don’t understand…. if a million feel they need to take to the streets, you would reckon this would equate to having the numbers in a referendum? If they don’t have the numbers with so many on the streets then opinion must be super polarised. Is there a generational divide?

trileacman

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2017, 12:21:25 AM »
Good thread gallsman and great input.

I'd have been in the pro Catalan camp and thought this recent action by Francos blancos in Madrid particularly Dracoian but you make good points. Any referendum should be independent and run within the rule of law. Why should a pro-independence regional government be allowed to arrange and process their own inde ref? Is there not a serious chance of vote-rigging in such a scenario.

Again the EU would be best to actively discourage this type of secession. It is essentially a supra-national organistiaon  that promotes integration. This type of movement flys in the face of that.
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seafoid

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2017, 12:54:37 AM »
Political arrangements tend to break down when there is economic chaos . Belgium is shaky enough as well.
Spain is like a mini empire with lots of regional identities.  Franco must be very pissed off in hell this evening.
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CiKe

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2017, 05:24:07 AM »
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.


Exactly.

Seamus, you are normally sensible but Gallsman is right.

Madrid's reaction has been unbelievably stupid in my view. They should allow a referendum with 2/3 majority required for independence. There wouldn't be a hope of that and issue could be put to bed. Unfortunately 50%+1 doesn't cut it.

While there has long been a longing among a fair part of the population for independence, Cataluña has never been independent. It's economic prosperity has also been built on the backbone of massive immigration from the rest of Spain, particularly from the 50s-70s.

Frankly I find it all very self interested and primarily based on financial interests i.e. They don't want to support those "lazy Andalusian" any more. Despite what I said above. It is no coincidence this has fired up not so long after La Crisis.

The leaders of the independence movement are a deceitful shower of c*nts, in the same way as the Brexit leadership. These guys have been lining their pockets for years in the same way politicians in the rest of the country have. Same lies about what a brave new economic world they will be in, yet Cataluña apparently exports more to Aragon than to whole of France.

And all this crap about remaining part of the EU. The EU has been very clear that they won't be. Probably a whole other debate about whether that is fair or not but the misinformation and spin is disheartening and dishonest.

omaghjoe

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2017, 05:58:51 AM »
I still think we are a long way of a federal EU yet were they can dictate who joins. They are still only as strong as each member state allows them to be and any undermining of their soverignity like this would obvoiusly be opposed. I would be quite sure that the federalist within the EU would be happy enough for the countries to fragment and come under the banner of the EU much like the Holy Roman Empire or Ottoman Empire but I think we are a long way from that happening as the soverign states are still were the power lies at the end of the day.

CiKe

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2017, 06:11:57 PM »
Czechoslovakia split in two so peacefully that many people didn't even notice. If Spain were to let go of its regions then I hope it does so peacefully, but right now the way the Spanish government is handling this looks a bit ominous. There are powerful forces they're dealing with. They'd be well advised to tread carefully.

Funny I was having conversation on Cataluña today and the fella mentioned Czechoslovakia breakup (he was living in Bratislava for 4-5 years up until recently).

While pretty peaceful, apparently cross border trade froze almost to a standstill. Not sure why exactly but a similar outcome here would obviously be disastrous