Author Topic: Catalan Independence Movement  (Read 6938 times)

gallsman

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Catalan Independence Movement
« on: September 21, 2017, 10:37:37 AM »
Living in Barcelona, this is naturally a topic I'm following closely and living through on a daily basis. I'm curious if anyone else on the board is follow the situation closely, has any opinions on it etc.
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

vallankumous

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2017, 10:40:06 AM »
Living in Barcelona, this is naturally a topic I'm following closely and living through on a daily basis. I'm curious if anyone else on the board is follow the situation closely, has any opinions on it etc.

I'm not as I've no faith in the MSM reports coming out of Spain.
I'd love to know your thoughts?

OgraAnDun

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2017, 11:04:50 AM »
Spanish government playing into the hands of the Catalan nationalists, hopefully they overreact even further and push a few on the fence voters towards voting for separation. What happens if there is a vote for independence will be very interesting.

Denn Forever

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2017, 11:33:24 AM »
Hasn't the Catalan region always been pushing indendence?  I suppose if they get separation, the Basque region will be pushing and be sorry they declared peace.

Was the Catalan region a Franko strong hold during the Spanish civil war?  Why has this push for seperation suddenly come to world attention?  Has there been a catalytic event?
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gallsman

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2017, 11:50:09 AM »
First off, I'm a neutral observer. Long term, the independence question is unlikely to affect me.

There are a lot of forces at play here. General sentiment would be that the overall result would continue to be a No vote but they have aggressivley pushed ahead with it. Whilst the majority of the Catalan population might have voted No, undermining their autonomy  is a very dangerous move and could end up pushing a lot of No voters towards Yes

Madrid and Spain's constitutional court have declared the referendum to be illegal. Fair enough. Cracking down in the form of raiding printworks to seize ballot papers and leaflets, arresting politicians and threatening municipal employees with prosecuton is a completely over the top and draconian reaction.

The protests last night were absolutely enormous. There were a million on the streets of Barcelona for the "Diada" a few weeks ago, and Barcelona is frequently referred to as the least Catalan place in Catalunya. If there's such pro independence sentiment here, provoking it does not seem wise. The Spanish foreign minister yesterday, ironically drew parallels between the independence leaders and Franco and Hitler.

On the other hand, the pro independence movement is hardly without fault either. The separatists hold a majority of seats in the Generalitat but this didn't come from a majority of the popular vote, so their mandate to hold the referendum is questionable to begin with. I'm no expert on Spanish law, but the referendum does appear to be illegal based on the constitution. (Then again, Maggie Thathcher thought we were all as British as Finchley). Times change, constitutions change, or at least should change. There are reports of intimidation of local government officials in towns across Catalunya who have not agreed to stage the vote. There is propaganda everywhere -  a lot of it coming out of the Catalan public purse.

There really is the potential for things to kick off here. Catalunya and Barcelona have a long history of political action, revolution and anarchy. This might just be the next round of it. One way or another, October 1st is going to be absolutely monumental.
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

magpie seanie

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2017, 12:11:38 PM »
Good luck to them I say. I hope they vote to be independent. And that the Basques also get their nation. The reaction of Madrid shows how desperate those in control can get when they see power and money slipping away.

theyellowbus

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2017, 12:16:31 PM »
Very interesting development on the horizon and how the Spanish government and the EU deal with any independence vote.
A yes vote isn't beyond the realms of possibility but what impact it will have on Spain's central government is the big question.
It will open a can of worms in relation to Basque if it is given any credence by the government.
We are entering a period of unstable governments across Europe in relation to many issues involving economics and reform including Brexit and the role of the EU in sovereign states.
Independence issues in places like Catalonia and Scotland will only be getting more frequent and if regions start to be granted independence where does that stop.
Brittany and Corsica in France next?What about closer to home and the North?Bavaria in Germany maybe?

vallankumous

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2017, 12:18:13 PM »
Very interesting development on the horizon and how the Spanish government and the EU deal with any independence vote.
A yes vote isn't beyond the realms of possibility but what impact it will have on Spain's central government is the big question.
It will open a can of worms in relation to Basque if it is given any credence by the government.
We are entering a period of unstable governments across Europe in relation to many issues involving economics and reform including Brexit and the role of the EU in sovereign states.
Independence issues in places like Catalonia and Scotland will only be getting more frequent and if regions start to be granted independence where does that stop.
Brittany and Corsica in France next?What about closer to home and the North?Bavaria in Germany maybe?


Cork?

gallsman

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2017, 12:20:08 PM »
Good luck to them I say. I hope they vote to be independent. And that the Basques also get their nation. The reaction of Madrid shows how desperate those in control can get when they see power and money slipping away.

Ridiculously simplistic take on it. Who to you refer to when you say "good luck to them"? The pro independence voters? What about the majority of the population that are anti independence?

Hasn't the Catalan region always been pushing indendence?  I suppose if they get separation, the Basque region will be pushing and be sorry they declared peace.

Was the Catalan region a Franko strong hold during the Spanish civil war?  Why has this push for seperation suddenly come to world attention?  Has there been a catalytic event?

Again, ridiculously simplistic. There has always been a Catalan independence movement. Recently, it has become increasingly popular. The regional government in Catalunya is staging (or at least intending to stage) what they say is a legally binding referendum on October 1st. This has been rejected by Madrid. That's why it's prominent at the minute.

No, it wasn't a Franco stronghold. It was part of the republic and at various times ruled by communists and anarchists.

Pro independence sentiment in the Basque country is nowhere near the levels of Catalunya. Different scenario altogether. The basque region didn't "declare peace". One armed group did.
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

theyellowbus

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2017, 12:30:39 PM »
Very interesting development on the horizon and how the Spanish government and the EU deal with any independence vote.
A yes vote isn't beyond the realms of possibility but what impact it will have on Spain's central government is the big question.
It will open a can of worms in relation to Basque if it is given any credence by the government.
We are entering a period of unstable governments across Europe in relation to many issues involving economics and reform including Brexit and the role of the EU in sovereign states.
Independence issues in places like Catalonia and Scotland will only be getting more frequent and if regions start to be granted independence where does that stop.
Brittany and Corsica in France next?What about closer to home and the North?Bavaria in Germany maybe?


Cork?

I actually thought about the Munster republic during the civil war when i was posting that.

Walter Cronc

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2017, 12:33:40 PM »
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.

vallankumous

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2017, 12:34:37 PM »




Again, ridiculously simplistic. There has always been a Catalan independence movement. Recently, it has become increasingly popular. The regional government in Catalunya is staging (or at least intending to stage) what they say is a legally binding referendum on October 1st. This has been rejected by Madrid. That's why it's prominent at the minute.

No, it wasn't a Franco stronghold. It was part of the republic and at various times ruled by communists and anarchists.

Pro independence sentiment in the Basque country is nowhere near the levels of Catalunya. Different scenario altogether. The basque region didn't "declare peace". One armed group did.

Is this in correlation with the growing Catalan economy?
Are the independence movement credited with the growing regional economy or is it seen as Spanish aided?

gallsman

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2017, 12:41:39 PM »
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.

People are perfectly entitled to their opinions. I'm perfectly entitled to ask where that opinion comes from or how they justify it.

The purpose was to start a discussion because the situation is a whole lot more complex than "big bad Madrid won't let the Catalans have their way." I haven't criticised anyone. I'm playing devil's advocate you complete f**king numpty.
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

magpie seanie

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2017, 12:43:20 PM »
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.


Exactly.

Walter Cronc

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Re: Catalan Independence Movement
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2017, 12:43:57 PM »
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.

People are perfectly entitled to their opinions. I'm perfectly entitled to ask where that opinion comes from or how they justify it.

The purpose was to start a discussion because the situation is a whole lot more complex than "big bad Madrid won't let the Catalans have their way." I haven't criticised anyone. I'm playing devil's advocate you complete f**king numpty.

 ;D

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