The Many Faces of US Politics...

[AZOffaly]

Because maybe when they look at all the evidence, they decide the police were right?

[muppet]

I don't know lads, but the Grand Jury heard way more evidence than they normally would, and they decided there was no case to answer. I think that's about all we know for sure.

Different case I know but watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSCftESyKyU

My money says there will be no indictment here either.

[deiseach]

I don't know lads, but the Grand Jury heard way more evidence than they normally would, and they decided there was no case to answer. I think that's about all we know for sure.

Different case I know but watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSCftESyKyU

My money says there will be no indictment here either.

Having read Jell 0 Biafra's link, good luck finding someone to give you odds.

[AZOffaly]

I don't know lads, but the Grand Jury heard way more evidence than they normally would, and they decided there was no case to answer. I think that's about all we know for sure.

Different case I know but watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSCftESyKyU

My money says there will be no indictment here either.

There's always outliers, but even in this case, if that young lad had been outside a school with a gun that looked real (the bright orange thing that tells cops it is fake had been removed) and pointing it around, would that have made a difference? It appears the cops had convinced themselves before they arrived that this was real, and a real threat and didn't bother to check too hard. Having said that, if it was a real gun (not unheard of for a child to have a real gun in the US) and the kid shot someone, the cops would be hammered for not doing something.

It's a tough job, and a lot of them are not able for it.

I blame the gun culture in America, which has made cops see every situation as a possible kill or be killed. It's a well known guideline in the states that when you get pulled over for a traffic offense, you keep your hands on the wheel and never reach into the glove compartment unless they tell you to. Same reason, and it's ridiculous. The NRA and the damned 'right to bear arms' has a lot to answer for.

[muppet]

I don't know lads, but the Grand Jury heard way more evidence than they normally would, and they decided there was no case to answer. I think that's about all we know for sure.

Different case I know but watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSCftESyKyU

My money says there will be no indictment here either.

There's always outliers, but even in this case, if that young lad had been outside a school with a gun that looked real (the bright orange thing that tells cops it is fake had been removed) and pointing it around, would that have made a difference? It appears the cops had convinced themselves before they arrived that this was real, and a real threat and didn't bother to check too hard. Having said that, if it was a real gun (not unheard of for a child to have a real gun in the US) and the kid shot someone, the cops would be hammered for not doing something.

It's a tough job, and a lot of them are not able for it.

I blame the gun culture in America, which has made cops see every situation as a possible kill or be killed. It's a well known guideline in the states that when you get pulled over for a traffic offense, you keep your hands on the wheel and never reach into the glove compartment unless they tell you to. Same reason, and it's ridiculous. The NRA and the damned 'right to bear arms' has a lot to answer for.

That is an understatement. If they felt threatened they could have stayed in the car. Instead they jumped out of the car and shot him within 2 seconds. Also they reported him as being 'about 20 years old'. So much for eye-witnesses being unreliable, the original caller said he was a child.

This was a 12 year old doing what almost every child on earth does, playing with toy guns. It will be interesting to see this story evolve over the next few weeks, as the character assassination squad arrive in Cleveland.

I think of the criticism, the Gárdaí got for the Abbeylara shooting. They waited 20 hours and tried just about everything and still were criticised. These cops shot the kid dead in 2 seconds.

[deiseach]

It's a tough job, and a lot of them are not able for it.

I'd say "if you can't do the time, don't commit the crime". But seeing as it's so rarely considered a crime, the message is "blast away, officer!"

[AZOffaly]

No doubt about it. But sometimes it's easy to watch a video, without context, and jump to a conclusion. What part of Cleveland is this? Is it near anywhere like a school? It appears to be a park? Is there a local drugs gang around that uses child 'soldiers'?

Now I'm not saying that the cops were right here, it certainly appears that at the very least they were trigger happy and jumpy, but until you know all the factors involved, it's easy to make a rush judgment.

And just by the way, the gun looks EXTREMELY realistic, and had the orange tag removed. The toy gun statement makes it sound like a cap gun. But even if it was a real gun, it's hard to see legitimate reason to shoot in that video, barring (as I've said) extenuating circumstances.

[muppet]

It's a tough job, and a lot of them are not able for it.

I'd say "if you can't do the time, don't commit the crime". But seeing as it's so rarely considered a crime, the message is "blast away, officer!"

It certainly seems to be the case. That link about the indictments on law enforcements officers (or lack thereof) being a complete outlier,  seems to support the argument regarding these shooting being treated differently.

[AZOffaly]

It's a tough job, and a lot of them are not able for it.

I'd say "if you can't do the time, don't commit the crime". But seeing as it's so rarely considered a crime, the message is "blast away, officer!"

I think it's a bit easy to hammer the cops all the time. I'm not sure there's anybody on earth equipped to deal with that sort of stress. I know I wouldn't be able for it. Maybe if so many assholes in America weren't shooting each other, the cops wouldn't be so jumpy.

Then of course you get the odd Tackleberry type lunatic who is only too happy to blast away, but I think they are in a small minority.

[muppet]

No doubt about it. But sometimes it's easy to watch a video, without context, and jump to a conclusion. What part of Cleveland is this? Is it near anywhere like a school? It appears to be a park? Is there a local drugs gang around that uses child 'soldiers'?

Now I'm not saying that the cops were right here, it certainly appears that at the very least they were trigger happy and jumpy, but until you know all the factors involved, it's easy to make a rush judgment.

And just by the way, the gun looks EXTREMELY realistic, and had the orange tag removed. The toy gun statement makes it sound like a cap gun. But even if it was a real gun, it's hard to see legitimate reason to shoot in that video, barring (as I've said) extenuating circumstances.

This 'orange tag' thing is an example of the obfuscation that immediately appears in a case like this. The spin doctors quickly move the discussion away from the fundamental issue that the cop shot dead a 12 year old boy who was just playing. No doubt this will become 'if only he hadn't removed the orange tag this tragedy could have been avoided'.

BTW if I ever rob a bank I must remember to have the gang put orange tags on the guns. That should buy a few seconds fooling the cops.

[AZOffaly]

If you stop being facetious for a minute, you'll see that in this case I am not defending the cops at all. It looks to me like an over reaction, but as I said until you know the other facts, you're just taking an opportunity to jump to a conclusion that suits your own prejudices.

See that gun? If a lad waved that at me, the same way this young lad was waving it at passers by in that video, I'd be scared. In a tense situation, it's not unreasonable to think that's a real gun, or are you saying the cops should have known it was a toy?

I'm saying the cops should have been more careful, even in the manner of their approach. If it was a real gun, they were actually putting themselves in danger first. But what is the context here? I don't know, and I bet you don't either.

I think it's all very sad, but I don't completely blame the cops. I blame the laws in the states that have made cops think that every situation they are going into might be the one where they get shot. That can't be healthy for the mind.

[muppet]

If you stop being facetious for a minute, you'll see that in this case I am not defending the cops at all. It looks to me like an over reaction, but as I said until you know the other facts, you're just taking an opportunity to jump to a conclusion that suits your own prejudices.

See that gun? If a lad waved that at me, the same way this young lad was waving it at passers by in that video, I'd be scared. In a tense situation, it's not unreasonable to think that's a real gun, or are you saying the cops should have known it was a toy?

I'm saying the cops should have been more careful, even in the manner of their approach. If it was a real gun, they were actually putting themselves in danger first. But what is the context here? I don't know, and I bet you don't either.

The context is a 12 year old boy is dead for playing with his toy gun. That is a massive failure of policing and a massive failure of society.

[AZOffaly]

If you stop being facetious for a minute, you'll see that in this case I am not defending the cops at all. It looks to me like an over reaction, but as I said until you know the other facts, you're just taking an opportunity to jump to a conclusion that suits your own prejudices.

See that gun? If a lad waved that at me, the same way this young lad was waving it at passers by in that video, I'd be scared. In a tense situation, it's not unreasonable to think that's a real gun, or are you saying the cops should have known it was a toy?

I'm saying the cops should have been more careful, even in the manner of their approach. If it was a real gun, they were actually putting themselves in danger first. But what is the context here? I don't know, and I bet you don't either.

The context is a 12 year old boy is dead for playing with his toy gun. That is a massive failure of policing and a massive failure of society.

I agree. But I would put more blame on the society that created the situation in the first place.

But I would still like to know why, in this instance, these cops felt the need to get so close, so quickly, and open fire. That's what I mean about context.

[deiseach]

As I noted yesterday, to hysteria from certain quarters, explanations to put seemingly trigger-happy American cops into 'context' use exactly the same language that was utilised by the Brits on the occasion of the latest atrocity by the security forces in the North. I didn't buy the it's-a-hard-job defence then, and I'm not buying it now. And having had a peeler in the family for all but five of the first eighty years of this state, my natural instinct is to side with forces of law and order. Having your uniform stolen by a gun-toting anti-Treatyite who wanted it to rob a bank and knew full well my grandfather wasn't packing heat - that was a hard job.

[foxcommander]

As I noted yesterday, to hysteria from certain quarters, explanations to put seemingly trigger-happy American cops into 'context' use exactly the same language that was utilised by the Brits on the occasion of the latest atrocity by the security forces in the North. I didn't buy the it's-a-hard-job defence then, and I'm not buying it now. And having had a peeler in the family for all but five of the first eighty years of this state, my natural instinct is to side with forces of law and order. Having your uniform stolen by a gun-toting anti-Treatyite who wanted it to rob a bank and knew full well my grandfather wasn't packing heat - that was a hard job.

You equated Bloody Sunday and Aidan McAnespie with Michael Brown.
Different circumstances completely, not to mention it was the army who were the ones with the guns in this case, not the police.
But don't let that stop you...