Do most counties have something similar in place?
https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/armagh-s-orchard-is-blossoming-nicely/
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The impact that Jarly Óg Burns and Rian O'Neill have in their debut championship season for Armagh has been nothing short of sensational. You might think the Orchard County are fortunate that two such talented players have arrived on the scene together, but it would be wrong to put their emergence down to just luck. Both have come through the Orchard Academy, the coaching and development squad structure first put in place by Paul McGrane and Denis Hollywood back in 2012.
The Orchard Academy's mission statement is "to broaden participation levels while teaching the skills of the game in formative years and establishing holistic best practice around players in the 'Learn to Compete' phase of their development." McGrane and Hollywood recruited the best and brightest coaches in the county, many of them All-Ireland winners in 2002, including Diarmaid Marsden, Benny Tierney, Oisin McConville, John Toal, John McEntee, Paddy McKeever, Philly McEvoy, Cathal O Rourke, Stevie McDonnell and Aidan O Rourke to work with the players.
Burns and O'Neill are two of the first graduates to come right through the system and there are many more promising young footballers snapping at their heels which bodes well for the future of Armagh football. Even more encouragingly if you're an Armagh supporter, the Orchard Academy is being constantly refined and is in a much stronger place now than it was when it was established seven years ago. A sponsor has recently come on board, Aidan Strain Electrical Engineering (ASEE), and last summer Armagh senior team manaer Kieran McGeeney initiated a review of the coaching pathway in the county
On the back of that, Aidan O'Rourke was appointed the Orchard Academy's new Manager this year, and is currently implementing a range of initiatives designed to make the county's underage coaching structures even more productive. "We basically reviewed everything that was going on in the county right from primary schools, clubs, our own development squads, et cetera, and we came back with recommendations to county management in February," O'Rourke told GAA.ie "They created a new working group for the Orchard Academy group and we rolled out a new programme of Primary School coaching and a revised approach to the development squads and how we bring players through. "From a performance pathway perspective we've moved away from the traditional model of trials and club nominations, et cetera.
"We have a unique environment in so far as we are a small county, but, for whatever reason, our secondary school system is very strong. We would have six schools carrying Armagh players who would compete at the highest level in Ulster, the MacRory Cup. "And, obviously in the other schools they would compete at all of the other levels as well so we are trying to build relationships with those key schools and support coaching there. "And then in the weaker schools we're trying to increase the quality of teams and player development within those schools so ultimately more Armagh players will benefit from increased exposure to quality coaching and competition."
Development squads have gotten an increasingly bad rap in recent years because they're deemed to be too elitist, but the Orchard Academy tries to cater for as large a number of players as possible.
"For us, it's about keeping the base as wide as you can and keeping as many involved as we can," said O'Rourke. "Obviously we're a small county with limited resources so that is difficult challenge and you're always looking at different angles to keep kids involved and not simply identify 30 or 40 kids at 13 or 14 years of age and say you're going to be the best players in this county at 17 and organise all your development opportunities around them. "It's well proven that that's very much a hit and miss approach, more of a miss approach. You try to educate as many people as you can, put these opportunities around them, and that's what our work-shops are for, they're fairly broad ones. "We had U-14 and U-15 coaching development work-shop on Saturday and there was 120 players at it across the two age-groups. "We want to take that batch of players at both age-groups moving forward and give them enough information and understanding about how to improve. "Because, ultimately, there's only so much we can do with them. The majority of their interaction is through their club and school. "We have very small windows with them so we have to try to inject small notions and ideas that can benefit them going forward in terms of educating them in terms of what they can bring back to their club and school."
Kieran McGeeney's record as Armagh manager, particularly in the Ulster Championship, has shipped some criticism over the course of the last five years. But what many may not appreciate is that in that time he's also put a lot of work into Armagh football at all levels away from the limelight and the benefits of that foresight and application are now becoming apparent.
"Kieran has always said from the outset that he wanted to leave Armagh in a more sustainable and better place and that probably the next man in would get the full benefit of the work he wanted to do, he said that from Day One," said O'Rourke. "Things are starting to come to fruition now and hopefully Kieran can continue to push that on himself. "We'd like to think there's a fair bit of work done in the background that will sustain the senior team challenging in the top tier at Division 1 level over a long period of time." "The senior team doing well now helps everything below it because young people are going around the county wearing orange jersies and want to go to matches. "I think we're in an environment now where there's a lot of choice. The best 13 or 14 gaelic footballers are also the best rugby players and soccer players. "There's an element of competition and I'm sure it's the same everywhere. When I was coming through you just wanted to play for your club and your county and nothing else, but things have changed."
When you look at the relatively youthful age profile of the current Armagh team and the swashbuckling brand of football they play, you'd have to say their short to medium term future looks bright. The likes of Jarly Óg Burns and Rian O'Neill may well just be the vanguard of a generation of talented footballers who have had their natural ability hot-housed in the well-run Orchard Academy.
"I'm cautiously optimistic about the senior team currently and I'd be optimistic about what I'd see coming through at the younger age-groups at the minute," said O'Rourke. "But there's always a warning sticker with all of that. There's just no legislating for a kid's development. Could I identify the best 10 U-14s in Armagh at the minute? Absolutely. "Is there a guarantee that any of those 10 will be in the top 10 U-17s in three years time? There's no guarantee. "I would hope the players who are outside that group currently would prove that wrong anyway. It's not an exact science by any means. "What we're trying to do is do as many things right and well as we can with the limited resources we have to try and uplift the quality of coaching in our development squads first of all. "We also want to uplift the quality of coaching in our clubs and schools to raise the level of competition at underage and above within the county. "You'd like to think it will have an overall impact on the senior team in the long run."
-----
Interesting.
Whatever about the Orchard Academy and it's benefits but as someone whose has watched Rian O Neill from he was a child I can categorically state that he is not the player he is because of the academy.
O'Neill and Burns are part of the Armagh GAA aristocracy in many ways. Such players were always likely to find an outlet for their talent and are not in themselves proof of the value of the Academy. If some fellow from Lurgan, whose parents weren't much involved in the GAA, comes through then this may be more significant.
Quote from: armaghniac on June 27, 2019, 09:56:14 PM
O'Neill and Burns are part of the Armagh GAA aristocracy in many ways. Such players were always likely to find an outlet for their talent and are not in themselves proof of the value of the Academy. If some fellow from Lurgan, whose parents weren't much involved in the GAA, comes through then this may be more significant.
I would completely agree on this.
Quote from: dec on June 27, 2019, 05:16:05 PM
Do most counties have something similar in place?
https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/armagh-s-orchard-is-blossoming-nicely/
-----
The impact that Jarly Óg Burns and Rian O'Neill have in their debut championship season for Armagh has been nothing short of sensational. You might think the Orchard County are fortunate that two such talented players have arrived on the scene together, but it would be wrong to put their emergence down to just luck. Both have come through the Orchard Academy, the coaching and development squad structure first put in place by Paul McGrane and Denis Hollywood back in 2012.
The Orchard Academy's mission statement is "to broaden participation levels while teaching the skills of the game in formative years and establishing holistic best practice around players in the 'Learn to Compete' phase of their development." McGrane and Hollywood recruited the best and brightest coaches in the county, many of them All-Ireland winners in 2002, including Diarmaid Marsden, Benny Tierney, Oisin McConville, John Toal, John McEntee, Paddy McKeever, Philly McEvoy, Cathal O Rourke, Stevie McDonnell and Aidan O Rourke to work with the players.
Burns and O'Neill are two of the first graduates to come right through the system and there are many more promising young footballers snapping at their heels which bodes well for the future of Armagh football. Even more encouragingly if you're an Armagh supporter, the Orchard Academy is being constantly refined and is in a much stronger place now than it was when it was established seven years ago. A sponsor has recently come on board, Aidan Strain Electrical Engineering (ASEE), and last summer Armagh senior team manaer Kieran McGeeney initiated a review of the coaching pathway in the county
On the back of that, Aidan O'Rourke was appointed the Orchard Academy's new Manager this year, and is currently implementing a range of initiatives designed to make the county's underage coaching structures even more productive. "We basically reviewed everything that was going on in the county right from primary schools, clubs, our own development squads, et cetera, and we came back with recommendations to county management in February," O'Rourke told GAA.ie "They created a new working group for the Orchard Academy group and we rolled out a new programme of Primary School coaching and a revised approach to the development squads and how we bring players through. "From a performance pathway perspective we've moved away from the traditional model of trials and club nominations, et cetera.
"We have a unique environment in so far as we are a small county, but, for whatever reason, our secondary school system is very strong. We would have six schools carrying Armagh players who would compete at the highest level in Ulster, the MacRory Cup. "And, obviously in the other schools they would compete at all of the other levels as well so we are trying to build relationships with those key schools and support coaching there. "And then in the weaker schools we're trying to increase the quality of teams and player development within those schools so ultimately more Armagh players will benefit from increased exposure to quality coaching and competition."
Development squads have gotten an increasingly bad rap in recent years because they're deemed to be too elitist, but the Orchard Academy tries to cater for as large a number of players as possible.
"For us, it's about keeping the base as wide as you can and keeping as many involved as we can," said O'Rourke. "Obviously we're a small county with limited resources so that is difficult challenge and you're always looking at different angles to keep kids involved and not simply identify 30 or 40 kids at 13 or 14 years of age and say you're going to be the best players in this county at 17 and organise all your development opportunities around them. "It's well proven that that's very much a hit and miss approach, more of a miss approach. You try to educate as many people as you can, put these opportunities around them, and that's what our work-shops are for, they're fairly broad ones. "We had U-14 and U-15 coaching development work-shop on Saturday and there was 120 players at it across the two age-groups. "We want to take that batch of players at both age-groups moving forward and give them enough information and understanding about how to improve. "Because, ultimately, there's only so much we can do with them. The majority of their interaction is through their club and school. "We have very small windows with them so we have to try to inject small notions and ideas that can benefit them going forward in terms of educating them in terms of what they can bring back to their club and school."
Kieran McGeeney's record as Armagh manager, particularly in the Ulster Championship, has shipped some criticism over the course of the last five years. But what many may not appreciate is that in that time he's also put a lot of work into Armagh football at all levels away from the limelight and the benefits of that foresight and application are now becoming apparent.
"Kieran has always said from the outset that he wanted to leave Armagh in a more sustainable and better place and that probably the next man in would get the full benefit of the work he wanted to do, he said that from Day One," said O'Rourke. "Things are starting to come to fruition now and hopefully Kieran can continue to push that on himself. "We'd like to think there's a fair bit of work done in the background that will sustain the senior team challenging in the top tier at Division 1 level over a long period of time." "The senior team doing well now helps everything below it because young people are going around the county wearing orange jersies and want to go to matches. "I think we're in an environment now where there's a lot of choice. The best 13 or 14 gaelic footballers are also the best rugby players and soccer players. "There's an element of competition and I'm sure it's the same everywhere. When I was coming through you just wanted to play for your club and your county and nothing else, but things have changed."
When you look at the relatively youthful age profile of the current Armagh team and the swashbuckling brand of football they play, you'd have to say their short to medium term future looks bright. The likes of Jarly Óg Burns and Rian O'Neill may well just be the vanguard of a generation of talented footballers who have had their natural ability hot-housed in the well-run Orchard Academy.
"I'm cautiously optimistic about the senior team currently and I'd be optimistic about what I'd see coming through at the younger age-groups at the minute," said O'Rourke. "But there's always a warning sticker with all of that. There's just no legislating for a kid's development. Could I identify the best 10 U-14s in Armagh at the minute? Absolutely. "Is there a guarantee that any of those 10 will be in the top 10 U-17s in three years time? There's no guarantee. "I would hope the players who are outside that group currently would prove that wrong anyway. It's not an exact science by any means. "What we're trying to do is do as many things right and well as we can with the limited resources we have to try and uplift the quality of coaching in our development squads first of all. "We also want to uplift the quality of coaching in our clubs and schools to raise the level of competition at underage and above within the county. "You'd like to think it will have an overall impact on the senior team in the long run."
-----
So, what's the difference in Armagh's Academy in comparsion to other counties' academies?
The main takeaway from this article is that players are being managed better and are being presented with realistic expectations.
In the case of O'Neil, a natural talent no doubt, but for all we know if he had been involved in the older system of development teams/minor teams, he may have got invited onto the Senior team and not been ready for what was to come, resulting in him dropping off.
I suppose the minor AI winning team would be proof of that, where only Murnin was a starter against Monaghan. This current setup should have plenty more of them boys involved. They had the potential to win a minor AI, and a lot of them players have come and gone from the senior team.
From the outset, there seems to be a lot more long term thinking/structure involved around underage development, as opposed to a management team of say an u16 Armagh team, training them and making them play as they personally deem right.
Quote from: armaghniac on June 27, 2019, 09:56:14 PM
O'Neill and Burns are part of the Armagh GAA aristocracy in many ways. Such players were always likely to find an outlet for their talent and are not in themselves proof of the value of the Academy. If some fellow from Lurgan, whose parents weren't much involved in the GAA, comes through then this may be more significant.
It's good to read that the county has been taking a look at its coaching and links with schools and so on. Certainly saying all the right things anyway. But the likes of Rian and Jarly will have gotten great coaching at home, outside the time spent at county level. Kids need the right tutoring in their own time outside county/school structures and need the motivation themselves to practice and work at the things they're taught.
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on June 28, 2019, 02:12:08 PM
The main takeaway from this article is that players are being managed better and are being presented with realistic expectations.
In the case of O'Neil, a natural talent no doubt, but for all we know if he had been involved in the older system of development teams/minor teams, he may have got invited onto the Senior team and not been ready for what was to come, resulting in him dropping off.
I suppose the minor AI winning team would be proof of that, where only Murnin was a starter against Monaghan. This current setup should have plenty more of them boys involved. They had the potential to win a minor AI, and a lot of them players have come and gone from the senior team.
From the outset, there seems to be a lot more long term thinking/structure involved around underage development, as opposed to a management team of say an u16 Armagh team, training them and making them play as they personally deem right.
I think this is all academies' outlook as far as I can gather. S & C, education about diet etc but how are the clubs reacting.
I think Ciaran Mc Keever had an article in paper a few months ago, stating it was hard for him to get players etc, if I remember correctly.
Quote from: marty34 on June 28, 2019, 02:39:13 PM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on June 28, 2019, 02:12:08 PM
The main takeaway from this article is that players are being managed better and are being presented with realistic expectations.
In the case of O'Neil, a natural talent no doubt, but for all we know if he had been involved in the older system of development teams/minor teams, he may have got invited onto the Senior team and not been ready for what was to come, resulting in him dropping off.
I suppose the minor AI winning team would be proof of that, where only Murnin was a starter against Monaghan. This current setup should have plenty more of them boys involved. They had the potential to win a minor AI, and a lot of them players have come and gone from the senior team.
From the outset, there seems to be a lot more long term thinking/structure involved around underage development, as opposed to a management team of say an u16 Armagh team, training them and making them play as they personally deem right.
I think this is all academies' outlook as far as I can gather. S & C, education about diet etc but how are the clubs reacting.
I think Ciaran Mc Keever had an article in paper a few months ago, stating it was hard for him to get players etc, if I remember correctly.
The problem is that I am aware of a number of lads who have been involved in development squads etc. Some of their faces didn't fit and as a consequence they were busting themselves up and down and getting no game time so threw the head up. Also, over the years it has been suggested that the quality of coaching was inferior to what they were getting at the club level so they didn't see the point.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on June 28, 2019, 03:34:45 PM
Quote from: marty34 on June 28, 2019, 02:39:13 PM
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on June 28, 2019, 02:12:08 PM
The main takeaway from this article is that players are being managed better and are being presented with realistic expectations.
In the case of O'Neil, a natural talent no doubt, but for all we know if he had been involved in the older system of development teams/minor teams, he may have got invited onto the Senior team and not been ready for what was to come, resulting in him dropping off.
I suppose the minor AI winning team would be proof of that, where only Murnin was a starter against Monaghan. This current setup should have plenty more of them boys involved. They had the potential to win a minor AI, and a lot of them players have come and gone from the senior team.
From the outset, there seems to be a lot more long term thinking/structure involved around underage development, as opposed to a management team of say an u16 Armagh team, training them and making them play as they personally deem right.
I think this is all academies' outlook as far as I can gather. S & C, education about diet etc but how are the clubs reacting.
I think Ciaran Mc Keever had an article in paper a few months ago, stating it was hard for him to get players etc, if I remember correctly.
The problem is that I am aware of a number of lads who have been involved in development squads etc. Some of their faces didn't fit and as a consequence they were busting themselves up and down and getting no game time so threw the head up. Also, over the years it has been suggested that the quality of coaching was inferior to what they were getting at the club level so they didn't see the point.
Good point re: coaching.
Ithink clubs should be developing players as they develop at different ages etc.
I think counties get very little back in terms of these development squads. They have big numbers coming through the systems every year but only a small percentage go on to be consistent inter county footballers.
Some county, (or a sports studies student perhaps) should do a thesis on this topic on a particular county in the next few years i.e. in the past 10 years, how many players have representwd the county at senior level and how often.
I doubt if one win in Ulster in 4 seasons deserves a new thread?
Quote from: Over the Bar on June 29, 2019, 08:49:18 PM
I doubt if one win in Ulster in 4 seasons deserves a new thread?
What has that got to do with this thread?
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 29, 2019, 10:08:09 PM
Quote from: Over the Bar on June 29, 2019, 08:49:18 PM
I doubt if one win in Ulster in 4 seasons deserves a new thread?
What has that got to do with this thread?
We've had enough nearly men stories. The potential of Armagh's latest set of cubs can be posted on the Armagh county thread. The rest of us can wait until they actually win something of note.
Quote from: Over the Bar on June 29, 2019, 11:36:01 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 29, 2019, 10:08:09 PM
Quote from: Over the Bar on June 29, 2019, 08:49:18 PM
I doubt if one win in Ulster in 4 seasons deserves a new thread?
What has that got to do with this thread?
We've had enough nearly men stories. The potential of Armagh's latest set of cubs can be posted on the Armagh county thread. The rest of us can wait until they actually win something of note.
In future I'm sure everybody will run their posts by you to make sure they're suitable
Lads, has this Armagh Academy not been going for years? I remember reading about it at least 10yrs ago. McGrane and O'Rourke have been knocking around underage teams and McGeeney has been at the helm for most of that time.
How many ulster underage titles have they produced? If any?
The senior team is one of the most hyped in the country.. the article above described them as "sensational" this season! Is this for real? They won one game in ulster and are now out of the qualifiers.
Sorry if this sounds harsh but I'm struggling to see beyond the hype in Armagh. Emperors new clothes springs to mind!
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 29, 2019, 11:38:15 PM
Quote from: Over the Bar on June 29, 2019, 11:36:01 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on June 29, 2019, 10:08:09 PM
Quote from: Over the Bar on June 29, 2019, 08:49:18 PM
I doubt if one win in Ulster in 4 seasons deserves a new thread?
What has that got to do with this thread?
We've had enough nearly men stories. The potential of Armagh's latest set of cubs can be posted on the Armagh county thread. The rest of us can wait until they actually win something of note.
In future I'm sure everybody will run their posts by you to make sure they're suitable
Pretty much everybody would know not to post about their county's underage development on the main board. ::)
Quote from: Over the Bar on June 29, 2019, 11:56:37 PM
Pretty much everybody would know not to post about their county's underage development on the main board. ::)
Pretty much everyone on the board does not go into threads with the sole intention of derailing them.
Quote from: ck on June 29, 2019, 11:52:08 PM
Lads, has this Armagh Academy not been going for years? I remember reading about it at least 10yrs ago. McGrane and O'Rourke have been knocking around underage teams and McGeeney has been at the helm for most of that time.
How many ulster underage titles have they produced? If any?
The senior team is one of the most hyped in the country.. the article above described them as "sensational" this season! Is this for real? They won one game in ulster and are now out of the qualifiers.
Sorry if this sounds harsh but I'm struggling to see beyond the hype in Armagh. Emperors new clothes springs to mind!
+1. Add to that Rian O'Neill being hyped as the next Peter Canavan
Quote from: ck on June 29, 2019, 11:52:08 PM
Lads, has this Armagh Academy not been going for years? I remember reading about it at least 10yrs ago. McGrane and O'Rourke have been knocking around underage teams and McGeeney has been at the helm for most of that time.
How many ulster underage titles have they produced? If any?
The senior team is one of the most hyped in the country.. the article above described them as "sensational" this season! Is this for real? They won one game in ulster and are now out of the qualifiers.
Sorry if this sounds harsh but I'm struggling to see beyond the hype in Armagh. Emperors new clothes springs to mind!
It is very harsh. Armagh have been a breath of fresh air this year, brilliant to watch. Unlucky last night too. They have some brilliant players coming through in Rian O'Neill and jarlath burns. Also Ben crealey looks very good. With st Ronan's and st pats armagh becoming stronger in macrory they look like they'll be strong for the next while.
Quote from: under the bar on June 30, 2019, 12:29:37 PM
Quote from: ck on June 29, 2019, 11:52:08 PM
Lads, has this Armagh Academy not been going for years? I remember reading about it at least 10yrs ago. McGrane and O'Rourke have been knocking around underage teams and McGeeney has been at the helm for most of that time.
How many ulster underage titles have they produced? If any?
The senior team is one of the most hyped in the country.. the article above described them as "sensational" this season! Is this for real? They won one game in ulster and are now out of the qualifiers.
Sorry if this sounds harsh but I'm struggling to see beyond the hype in Armagh. Emperors new clothes springs to mind!
+1. Add to that Rian O'Neill being hyped as the next Peter Canavan
As far as I. An see you're the only one to mention the two in the same sentence
The harvest is over lads. Away back to your shacks for another year.
Quote from: charlieTully on July 01, 2019, 07:35:44 AM
The harvest is over lads. Away back to your shacks for another year.
But it was fun while it lasted
Quote from: charlieTully on July 01, 2019, 07:35:44 AM
The harvest is over lads. Away back to your shacks for another year.
Any year we beat Down is not a total waste.