Anybody read the article in todays Irish News? He hit the nail on the head........
https://www.irishnews.com/sport/2019/02/21/news/john-mcentee-clubs-are-suffering-from-demands-being-put-on-u20s-1556602/
Quote from: screenexile on February 21, 2019, 12:17:56 PM
https://www.irishnews.com/sport/2019/02/21/news/john-mcentee-clubs-are-suffering-from-demands-being-put-on-u20s-1556602/
Copy and paste for us mean dogs....please
THE significance of the U20 county championship should not be understated as a measure of a county's progression towards potential success at senior grade.
A quick scan over the past eight years shows that the teams who've had U20 All-Ireland success are the same teams who are omnipresent in Division One and are the main challengers to Dublin.
Even Roscommon's rise to the top table is built on a solid foundation of reaching two U20 finals in the past six years.
Many great players at minor grade may never rack up a Championship appearance at senior grade. Jack Ferriter from Dingle is one guy who instantly springs to mind. He was Kerry captain in 1994. His team, managed by one of the greatest ever goalkeepers in Charlie Nelligan, romped to victory over Armagh in the semi-final before railroading Galway in the final.
Jack was star of the show on both days. He reappeared on the hallowed turf of Austin Stack Park, Tralee in 1998 to guide a star studded IT Tralee to Sigerson Cup success and claim a man of the tournament award in the process. However, soon after he went into relative hibernation.
Rumours of recurrent shoulder injuries and disagreements with the county management team brought severance to a promising, though unfulfilled, county career.
Perhaps a better known Ulster example is Armagh's Des Mackin. Des was a bear of a minor; big, strong, unstoppable and goal-hungry.
Along with Diarmaid Marsden they were feared the length and breadth of Ireland and were popularised as Armagh's mighty 'M&M' as minor players in the Orchard county's run to the 1992 All-Ireland final.
History shows that Diarmaid went on to excel as one of the finest senior players of his generation, while Des's senior career fizzled out after a few comparatively unsuccessful years.
Of course, there are many reasons why this may have occurred. My point is that players whose development continues on an upward trajectory from minor into U20 (formerly U21) and on to seniors are likely to experience long careers and to demonstrate their best when it matters most.
So, if success at U20 generally correlates to senior success, does it signify that counties should expend huge energy and resources into U20 grade?
This grade is seen by many as the final stage of a development pathway. At no stage in the GAA's development pathway does it say that players who engage in this process are removed from club activity and engage solely in the activities proposed by the county development officers.
Their very existence is designed to fit around club activity and, where relevant, around their school or college experiences.
So the burning question is why are clubs in numerous counties not having access to players who have been called up to U20 squads?
Who has given permission for U20 managers to extract these young men from their clubs, particularly when the U20 championship does not commence for 17 more weeks?
Are county boards seriously turning a blind eye to training three to five times per week or by supporting wildcat challenge games in January and February?
Continuation along the path currently travelled by many counties is further expansion of the professionalism agenda purportedly shunned by the Association.
Many county teams have adopted an approach taken by the successful counties of appointing a high-profile or successful manager for their U20 team.
This brings with it a sense of responsibility to support them in whatever approach they adopt. Power and control is assumed by the manager. Conversely, the added pressure felt by the manager to win leads some to suggest their participation is more related to ego-boosting rather than player development.
The training-to-match ratio at senior grade is frequently quoted as being heavily weighted in favour of training sessions.
This is within a calendar year which has a pre-season provincial competition, a National League and a Championship inclusive of a Super 8 league format, which gives counties a minimum of 11 matches and a possibility of 16 or more.
Compare this to the U20 competition in which teams train from late November through to May/June for possibly one championship match and at most five. Somewhere in the middle of that calendar there are a few meaningless provincial league games which could be easily overlooked.
For most clubs, June 21 (provincial U20 quarter-finals) or July 7 (semi-finals) can't come quick enough because, as depressing as it is to have no contact with their inter-county senior players, it is soul-destroying to have their U20 representatives sucked out of the changing room and from the training field.
As I see it, the only people who can stop this trend are the county board executive committee members and the many club delegates who attend county board meetings.
They are the people who have the real power to enact change and to stop the nonsense. Club teams cannot take many more hits.
Every day these young men are away from their clubs is another day they grow more disengaged with their clubs and their community values.
In the same way that the impact of success at U20 grade should not be understated, the impact on clubs should not be ignored.
I'm not sure what point he's making about Marsden and Mackin or how whatever it is is relevant to the availability of u20 players for their club's preseason slog?
Couldn't agree more.....this issue needs to be taken firmly in hand by HQ.
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 22, 2019, 09:47:32 AM
Couldn't agree more.....this issue needs to be taken firmly in hand by HQ.
It has been taken in hand... they've introduced an U20 regional league that means these players will be playing more inter county football in May and June and less with their clubs...
Quote from: barelegs on February 22, 2019, 09:55:40 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 22, 2019, 09:47:32 AM
Couldn't agree more.....this issue needs to be taken firmly in hand by HQ.
It has been taken in hand... they've introduced an U20 regional league that means these players will be playing more inter county football in May and June and less with their clubs...
Well aware of that....it's the training and challenge matches outside this period that is at issue here. Won't be much club action in those months anyway with seniors involved in provincial and qualifiers, that's the whole idea.
Forget about what's good for clubs, if you put players first and look after their workload, games, training etc then everyone is a winner.
But u20 players have too many masters, club, county u20, county senior and colleges. And that's only if you play one code.
How many of those coaches/managers above actually care about their players? In all amateur sports coaches ego's are running the show, there are exceptions of course, it need to change.
Personally if I was coaching an u20 player I would sit him down and see what his goals were, sporting & life and what mine were for the team and how we can work together to help each other. Often his goals will be completely different.
Dinny in my experience the only people who look after these players are the clubs. The others take their full pound of flesh and never ask after their welfare.
Banty has had his lads out since November 4/5 times a week! He means business.
Quote from: The Trap on February 22, 2019, 12:17:43 PM
Dinny in my experience the only people who look after these players are the clubs. The others take their full pound of flesh and never ask after their welfare.
The club in a wider sense absolutely but your senior manager/coach particularly if paid has an ego too and can be just as detrimental. We all know bad managers that have chased players away.
Dinny that may be the case sometimes but most of the time this is the scenario:
Player trains with school team before club training
Player trains with university before club training
Player trains with county u20s before club training
Player trains with county seniors before club training
This is ALMOST ALWAYS the case until these teams are knocked out or win their competition. All the club does is ask them to show their face the odd time and hopefully be able to play in league games (not challenge matches or cup games).
The schools/universities does not last long and doesn't interfere too much with club season so that can be tolerated while the seniors has moved on for a good while now and it is taken for granted now that the club wont see these men. And while the national league is in full swing that is acceptable too as the club season hasn't started.
BUT what McEntee's article is about is the under20s. They don't have a game until May but these lads are not allowed to train with their clubs. Most clubs have challenge games coming up and important league games that should take priority over under20 training. Would you not agree?
Quote from: The Trap on February 22, 2019, 12:54:26 PM
Dinny that may be the case sometimes but most of the time this is the scenario:
Player trains with school team before club training
Player trains with university before club training
Player trains with county u20s before club training
Player trains with county seniors before club training
This is ALMOST ALWAYS the case until these teams are knocked out or win their competition. All the club does is ask them to show their face the odd time and hopefully be able to play in league games (not challenge matches or cup games).
The schools/universities does not last long and doesn't interfere too much with club season so that can be tolerated while the seniors has moved on for a good while now and it is taken for granted now that the club wont see these men. And while the national league is in full swing that is acceptable too as the club season hasn't started.
BUT what McEntee's article is about is the under20s. They don't have a game until May but these lads are not allowed to train with their clubs. Most clubs have challenge games coming up and important league games that should take priority over under20 training. Would you not agree?
In theory, you could have a senior team with 3 senior intercounty, and 3-4 U20s. Imagine being the club manager trying to plan a team with up to 5-6 players missing from the first 15
The GAA needs to get serious. If I was in the CPA, I would be advocating for serious demonstrations. Boycott the attendance to national league, matches. HQ wont listen until you hurt them financially
Kickham, we don't a CPA-enabled strike.
What we need is clear rule of participation and precedence throughout the year.
For example, under20 county sides would be permitted to meet a maximum of once per week 1 Jan-31 Mar, and twice per week maximum thereafter, until elimanated. A "meet" is training, a match or a gym session. Their choice. Use it wisely.
Any county in breach of these rules is immediately ejected from that level's Championship, with increased bans for repeat offences within a 5-year term.
Any manager who feels this is not enough time to mould his players, should be handed a big poster saying "it's the same for everyone".
It sounds draconian, but it's needed, as modern managers just can't be trusted. Fines are a waste of time, as neither players nor managers carry the burden. Ejection is the only whip.
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 22, 2019, 10:07:55 AM
Quote from: barelegs on February 22, 2019, 09:55:40 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on February 22, 2019, 09:47:32 AM
Couldn't agree more.....this issue needs to be taken firmly in hand by HQ.
It has been taken in hand... they've introduced an U20 regional league that means these players will be playing more inter county football in May and June and less with their clubs...
Well aware of that....it's the training and challenge matches outside this period that is at issue here. Won't be much club action in those months anyway with seniors involved in provincial and qualifiers, that's the whole idea.
I think challenge games are not allowed now with the introduction of the regional league. The one problem i see with the league is the lack of sense scheduling it in the middle of exams for a lot of the players.
I would guess most college exams are over so you must mean leaving certs, I suppose? I think for the overall greater good of the association as a whole a few 18 year olds missing some U20 intercounty league games isn't the end of the world. There's no perfect world but this is a positive step towards freeing up more time for clubs. Sad to hear of teams training already but not surprising. I just hope the association is vigilant in tackling breaches of rules and sticks to their guns. No challenge games must be stuck to ridigly as well.
The Association's vigilance in enforcing rules and sticking to their guns will as ever depend on the size or influence of those breaching the rule.
Quote from: TheClubman on February 23, 2019, 10:20:14 AM
I would guess most college exams are over so you must mean leaving certs, I suppose? I think for the overall greater good of the association as a whole a few 18 year olds missing some U20 intercounty league games isn't the end of the world. There's no perfect world but this is a positive step towards freeing up more time for clubs. Sad to hear of teams training already but not surprising. I just hope the association is vigilant in tackling breaches of rules and sticks to their guns. No challenge games must be stuck to ridigly as well.
With the minor championship changed to U17 the U20 competition was meant to be the age group for 18 year olds to play in. Missing out because those at the top schedule the U20 competitions during exams is wrong and a number missed out on the championship last year because of exams.
Quote from: Cunny Funt on February 23, 2019, 02:07:42 PM
Quote from: TheClubman on February 23, 2019, 10:20:14 AM
I would guess most college exams are over so you must mean leaving certs, I suppose? I think for the overall greater good of the association as a whole a few 18 year olds missing some U20 intercounty league games isn't the end of the world. There's no perfect world but this is a positive step towards freeing up more time for clubs. Sad to hear of teams training already but not surprising. I just hope the association is vigilant in tackling breaches of rules and sticks to their guns. No challenge games must be stuck to ridigly as well.
With the minor championship changed to U17 the U20 competition was meant to be the age group for 18 year olds to play in. Missing out because those at the top schedule the U20 competitions during exams is wrong and a number missed out on the championship last year because of exams.
.
From helping out with the club, I'm reliably informed that it would be better if the grades remained the same, in terms of lads doing exams. Most people who sit exams are u19, while junior certs would be u16, whereas previously u19 would be the first year of u21, and u16 generally didn't come into the reckoning with minor, now nearly half a minor team would be u16, and a good few u20s would be u19. The age-grade change is an absolute disaster.
The real problem is not the relatively few ho have too many demands, but the vast numbers who drift out of the game completely after minor level; many reasons for this, of course, but one is that they don't get regular football. In soccer they're guaranteed a game every week. Once again, the elite are being obsessed about, and the vast majority suffer
Quote from: LooseCannon on February 24, 2019, 07:39:39 AM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on February 23, 2019, 02:07:42 PM
Quote from: TheClubman on February 23, 2019, 10:20:14 AM
I would guess most college exams are over so you must mean leaving certs, I suppose? I think for the overall greater good of the association as a whole a few 18 year olds missing some U20 intercounty league games isn't the end of the world. There's no perfect world but this is a positive step towards freeing up more time for clubs. Sad to hear of teams training already but not surprising. I just hope the association is vigilant in tackling breaches of rules and sticks to their guns. No challenge games must be stuck to ridigly as well.
With the minor championship changed to U17 the U20 competition was meant to be the age group for 18 year olds to play in. Missing out because those at the top schedule the U20 competitions during exams is wrong and a number missed out on the championship last year because of exams.
.
From helping out with the club, I'm reliably informed that it would be better if the grades remained the same, in terms of lads doing exams. Most people who sit exams are u19, while junior certs would be u16, whereas previously u19 would be the first year of u21, and u16 generally didn't come into the reckoning with minor, now nearly half a minor team would be u16, and a good few u20s would be u19. The age-grade change is an absolute disaster.
I couldn't agree more. It's a nonsense in my eyes. They were all set to bring in is as mandatory at club level at congress but must have got negative feedback because it was withdrawn. They'll have everything lined up to ram it through at a special congress later on this year no doubt.
All the GAA care about are the elite (I hate that word) players and money and once again Congress showed this. The headline was the Dublin 2 home fixtures but hidden away were:
under 20s can now play senior and under 20 championship - these "elite" players will never be seen at the club but who cares about that
under17s cannot play club senior/reserve football - this is to protect the elite under17s from burn out but to hell with the majority who never get enough games and the small club who might need these players
Meanwhile all club players are looking forward to 4/5 games in April and then nothing to July/August while the elite 2% make the GAA loads of money.
Quote from: The Trap on February 25, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
All the GAA care about are the elite (I hate that word) players and money and once again Congress showed this. The headline was the Dublin 2 home fixtures but hidden away were:
under 20s can now play senior and under 20 championship - these "elite" players will never be seen at the club but who cares about that
under17s cannot play club senior/reserve football - this is to protect the elite under17s from burn out but to hell with the majority who never get enough games and the small club who might need these players
Meanwhile all club players are looking forward to 4/5 games in April and then nothing to July/August while the elite 2% make the GAA loads of money.
A bit contradictory there but nothing new in the GAA world.
Can't wait for the outrage when some U20 player is "forced" to play two games in x number of days because there's few dates to get these competitions played.
Quote from: johnnycool on February 25, 2019, 04:31:10 PM
Quote from: The Trap on February 25, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
All the GAA care about are the elite (I hate that word) players and money and onc again Congress showed this. The headline was the Dublin 2 home fixtures but hidden away were:
under 20s can now play senior and under 20 championship - these "elite" players will never be seen at the club but who cares about that
under17s cannot play club senior/reserve football - this is to protect the elite under17s from burn out but to hell with the majority who never get enough games and the small club who might need these players
Meanwhile all club players are looking forward to 4/5 games in April and then nothing to July/August while the elite 2% make the GAA loads of money.
A bit contradictory there but nothing new in the GAA world.
Can't wait for the outrage when some U20 player is "forced" to play two games in x number of days because there's few dates to get these competitions played.
Can only play if their senior team is knocked out of the championship as far as I know. U20 is a poor mans U21 championship anyway.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 25, 2019, 04:40:13 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 25, 2019, 04:31:10 PM
Quote from: The Trap on February 25, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
All the GAA care about are the elite (I hate that word) players and money and onc again Congress showed this. The headline was the Dublin 2 home fixtures but hidden away were:
under 20s can now play senior and under 20 championship - these "elite" players will never be seen at the club but who cares about that
under17s cannot play club senior/reserve football - this is to protect the elite under17s from burn out but to hell with the majority who never get enough games and the small club who might need these players
Meanwhile all club players are looking forward to 4/5 games in April and then nothing to July/August while the elite 2% make the GAA loads of money.
A bit contradictory there but nothing new in the GAA world.
Can't wait for the outrage when some U20 player is "forced" to play two games in x number of days because there's few dates to get these competitions played.
Can only play if their senior team is knocked out of the championship as far as I know. U20 is a poor mans U21 championship anyway.
It is but with county panels getting younger than ever due to the commitments required then it was right to have some sort of regulation in place to prevent overlaps, and then to water it down for whatever reason as well.
And yet there's no mention of club games in this mix either.
It's as if those in power are only interested in the intercounty game.
Keep up that attitude and we'll end up like rugby with a few elite provinces/teams and the structures underneath left to wreck and ruin.