Should An Glenn object?

[Rossfan]

Doesn't HQ have to send the appeal to Kilmacud and give them 3 days for any response they wish to submit.

You'd have thought that if you're looking for KC to respond to something it would be from a ruling Croke have sent them?

It's like a legal thingy... you make your case, I'm asked to respond, then Judge considers and rules on the matter.

I suspect KC will get a fine for not taking their man off and the Ref mind find himself getting eased off the list.

[lenny]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/26/ciaran-murphy-the-unsettling-gap-between-the-gaa-rulebook-and-the-gaa-way/

At various stages over the last three days, both teams have been asked to judge the merits of this case not from a regulatory standpoint, but from a moral or ethical standpoint. They have had to navigate their path along the GAA Way, not the GAA Rulebook.
That was allowed to happen by extraordinarily weak GAA leadership. Yes, we have been stung multiple times in this country by the scourge of the celebrity sports administrator. And generally speaking, I'm in favour of administrators taking a back seat.
But sometimes you need a GAA President or a GAA Director-General to take the lead in a situation like this. It's not a crime to say the end of this game was mishandled – everyone can see that. There's a difference between refs being scapegoated and being held accountable.
The second the officiating team realised their mistake, the fateful 45 should have been re-taken. They were central GAA's representatives on the field. From that moment on, it was the GAA's mess to clear up. And whatever about the residual power of the GAA Way, the GAA Rulebook will now have the final say.

Spot on.
If the 45 had been re-taken, it is likely KC would still have won and there'd be not a word about it.
As it stands, failure of officials to take action at the time have resulted in this mess.
All that can be done, is to follow the rule book. Let the process run, Glen have raised their objection and KC have time to respond. My understanding is if they don't respond or refute the Objection, then CCCC start an inquiry into Glen's objection. KC could also admit that they had 16 players on the pitch, and in this case an inquiry is not required (I think).

If an inquiry is held and it finds in favour of Glen's objection OR KC admit the fact there were 16 players, then the CCCC have to decide on a punishment, if any. Then both teams have 3 days to appeal that decision.

If KC admit that the grounds of Glen's objection are valid and no inquiry is needed, then the CCCC decide on punishment, if any. And once again, both teams have 3 days to appeal that decision.

It's all a mess but those are the procedures so it's likely to be the middle of next week before we get to any final outcome.

The issue of fault only comes into it when the CCCC are deciding on a potential punishment and those failings of officials, players, team management etc will all be mitigating factors in that decision making process. I'm not sure factors like the score or how much time is left can be considered as a mitigating factor as they don't contribute to the rule breaking.

It's well documented now what the options are if the objection is upheld, which I think it has to be given the video evidence and general acceptance of the extra players being on the pitch for the final play. Both teams are entitled to have the rules applied fairly.
In my opinion, this was probably accidental on KC's part. But that doesn't matter.
Officials could have managed it at the time and made it a non issue, but didn't, and so have let down both teams.
It would be unfair to fine KC for an error from officials, though I'd guess they'd happily take a fine over a replay - but that's a dangerous precedent to set for this type of problem.
It would be unfair on KC to reverse the result and I dont think Glen would want it reversed that way either, but I'm not sure what the circumstances are that require a reversal of the result.
I think a replay is the least worst option, it gives both teams another bite at it and preserves the integrity of the rules going forward.

There was no deliberate rule break, therefore there is no need for any sanction. We should all just accept that it was an error by the officials. Many games are won and lost by officials errors. We are opening a complete can of worms if we start allowing replays for errors by officials.

[tbrick18]

Unlikely but i would say if replayed KC will be travelling out to the sticks imo.

Why not have it at Croke? it's still, at this time of the year, regardless of how the pitch is at the minute, in a better state than most other county grounds.. Better facilities..

I've not got a message from Croke yet on officiating 

Armagh is in good nick, could facilitate a weeknight game, and would be mid-way between both teams (ish).

[Milltown Row2]

I suppose Athletic grounds would be good, and you're closer to the pitch to see how many subs go on

[Franko]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/26/ciaran-murphy-the-unsettling-gap-between-the-gaa-rulebook-and-the-gaa-way/

At various stages over the last three days, both teams have been asked to judge the merits of this case not from a regulatory standpoint, but from a moral or ethical standpoint. They have had to navigate their path along the GAA Way, not the GAA Rulebook.
That was allowed to happen by extraordinarily weak GAA leadership. Yes, we have been stung multiple times in this country by the scourge of the celebrity sports administrator. And generally speaking, I'm in favour of administrators taking a back seat.
But sometimes you need a GAA President or a GAA Director-General to take the lead in a situation like this. It's not a crime to say the end of this game was mishandled – everyone can see that. There's a difference between refs being scapegoated and being held accountable.
The second the officiating team realised their mistake, the fateful 45 should have been re-taken. They were central GAA's representatives on the field. From that moment on, it was the GAA's mess to clear up. And whatever about the residual power of the GAA Way, the GAA Rulebook will now have the final say.

Spot on.
If the 45 had been re-taken, it is likely KC would still have won and there'd be not a word about it.
As it stands, failure of officials to take action at the time have resulted in this mess.
All that can be done, is to follow the rule book. Let the process run, Glen have raised their objection and KC have time to respond. My understanding is if they don't respond or refute the Objection, then CCCC start an inquiry into Glen's objection. KC could also admit that they had 16 players on the pitch, and in this case an inquiry is not required (I think).

If an inquiry is held and it finds in favour of Glen's objection OR KC admit the fact there were 16 players, then the CCCC have to decide on a punishment, if any. Then both teams have 3 days to appeal that decision.

If KC admit that the grounds of Glen's objection are valid and no inquiry is needed, then the CCCC decide on punishment, if any. And once again, both teams have 3 days to appeal that decision.

It's all a mess but those are the procedures so it's likely to be the middle of next week before we get to any final outcome.

The issue of fault only comes into it when the CCCC are deciding on a potential punishment and those failings of officials, players, team management etc will all be mitigating factors in that decision making process. I'm not sure factors like the score or how much time is left can be considered as a mitigating factor as they don't contribute to the rule breaking.

It's well documented now what the options are if the objection is upheld, which I think it has to be given the video evidence and general acceptance of the extra players being on the pitch for the final play. Both teams are entitled to have the rules applied fairly.
In my opinion, this was probably accidental on KC's part. But that doesn't matter.
Officials could have managed it at the time and made it a non issue, but didn't, and so have let down both teams.
It would be unfair to fine KC for an error from officials, though I'd guess they'd happily take a fine over a replay - but that's a dangerous precedent to set for this type of problem.
It would be unfair on KC to reverse the result and I dont think Glen would want it reversed that way either, but I'm not sure what the circumstances are that require a reversal of the result.
I think a replay is the least worst option, it gives both teams another bite at it and preserves the integrity of the rules going forward.

There was no deliberate rule break, therefore there is no need for any sanction. We should all just accept that it was an error by the officials. Many games are won and lost by officials errors. We are opening a complete can of worms if we start allowing replays for errors by officials.

[Dreadnought]

There was no deliberate rule break, therefore there is no need for any sanction. We should all just accept that it was an error by the officials. Many games are won and lost by officials errors. We are opening a complete can of worms if we start allowing replays for errors by officials.

Can't agree. This is very clearly set out in the rules, and there's multiple precedents before. This is not the same as a ref giving a soft free for a winning kick, or such, or a poor red card decision. That'll always be part and parcel. But this is clearly set out, and the 15 on the field is the very basis of the game. I would argue we open a can of worms by not allowing a replay here and letting this go.

[trailer]

What is the contingency if the GAA order a replay and KC tell them to go f**k themselves? (Which I think they will)

[J70]

What is the contingency if the GAA order a replay and KC tell them to go f**k themselves? (Which I think they will)

As with a lot of things GAA, they'll probably make it up as they go along.

[tbrick18]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/26/ciaran-murphy-the-unsettling-gap-between-the-gaa-rulebook-and-the-gaa-way/

At various stages over the last three days, both teams have been asked to judge the merits of this case not from a regulatory standpoint, but from a moral or ethical standpoint. They have had to navigate their path along the GAA Way, not the GAA Rulebook.
That was allowed to happen by extraordinarily weak GAA leadership. Yes, we have been stung multiple times in this country by the scourge of the celebrity sports administrator. And generally speaking, I'm in favour of administrators taking a back seat.
But sometimes you need a GAA President or a GAA Director-General to take the lead in a situation like this. It's not a crime to say the end of this game was mishandled – everyone can see that. There's a difference between refs being scapegoated and being held accountable.
The second the officiating team realised their mistake, the fateful 45 should have been re-taken. They were central GAA's representatives on the field. From that moment on, it was the GAA's mess to clear up. And whatever about the residual power of the GAA Way, the GAA Rulebook will now have the final say.

Spot on.
If the 45 had been re-taken, it is likely KC would still have won and there'd be not a word about it.
As it stands, failure of officials to take action at the time have resulted in this mess.
All that can be done, is to follow the rule book. Let the process run, Glen have raised their objection and KC have time to respond. My understanding is if they don't respond or refute the Objection, then CCCC start an inquiry into Glen's objection. KC could also admit that they had 16 players on the pitch, and in this case an inquiry is not required (I think).

If an inquiry is held and it finds in favour of Glen's objection OR KC admit the fact there were 16 players, then the CCCC have to decide on a punishment, if any. Then both teams have 3 days to appeal that decision.

If KC admit that the grounds of Glen's objection are valid and no inquiry is needed, then the CCCC decide on punishment, if any. And once again, both teams have 3 days to appeal that decision.

It's all a mess but those are the procedures so it's likely to be the middle of next week before we get to any final outcome.

The issue of fault only comes into it when the CCCC are deciding on a potential punishment and those failings of officials, players, team management etc will all be mitigating factors in that decision making process. I'm not sure factors like the score or how much time is left can be considered as a mitigating factor as they don't contribute to the rule breaking.

It's well documented now what the options are if the objection is upheld, which I think it has to be given the video evidence and general acceptance of the extra players being on the pitch for the final play. Both teams are entitled to have the rules applied fairly.
In my opinion, this was probably accidental on KC's part. But that doesn't matter.
Officials could have managed it at the time and made it a non issue, but didn't, and so have let down both teams.
It would be unfair to fine KC for an error from officials, though I'd guess they'd happily take a fine over a replay - but that's a dangerous precedent to set for this type of problem.
It would be unfair on KC to reverse the result and I dont think Glen would want it reversed that way either, but I'm not sure what the circumstances are that require a reversal of the result.
I think a replay is the least worst option, it gives both teams another bite at it and preserves the integrity of the rules going forward.

There was no deliberate rule break, therefore there is no need for any sanction. We should all just accept that it was an error by the officials. Many games are won and lost by officials errors. We are opening a complete can of worms if we start allowing replays for errors by officials.

Deliberate or not doesn't matter as for this particular rule, the word deliberate isn't included.
Black card rule stipulates "deliberate". The number of players on a pitch doesn't have any such stipulation.
The rule, as it is written, has been broken and that isn't open to interpretation.
We open a complete of worms, if the rule is not enforced.

[tbrick18]

What is the contingency if the GAA order a replay and KC tell them to go f**k themselves? (Which I think they will)

I would imagine, that would be the same as not fulfilling a fixture and the the opposing team would automatically be granted the win.
Glen wouldn't want that either I'd imagine.
There's also no guarantee that Glen would accept a replay either.

[yellowcard]

What is the contingency if the GAA order a replay and KC tell them to go f**k themselves? (Which I think they will)

I'm only guessing but I'd imagine it would be the same as any other match up and down the country where the opposition don't field. The referee will throw the ball up in the air and Glen will score to win the match. It happened earlier in the year with a ladies Ulster club match after a row about a 4G pitch and steel studs. However given the magnitude of this game I wouldn't expect that Glen would field if such an eventuality came about which leaves everything still in limbo. It's really down to how the GAA apply their own rulebook. 

[seafoid]

What is the contingency if the GAA order a replay and KC tell them to go f**k themselves? (Which I think they will)

Based on what ?

[clarshack]

I suppose Athletic grounds would be good, and you're closer to the pitch to see how many subs go on

Páirc Esler would be exactly half way between the 2 clubs.

[nrico2006]

Without going through the GAAs prehistoric and ambiguous rule sets that count for little to be honest, the buck probably stops with the referee. It's still a game, irrelevant of the location or occasion. The line indicates a sub is being made and the referee should not restart play until he sees a player coming on and one going off. However, there is surely the added protection there in that every fella who comes on makes the replaced player aware of the switch. But without playing the blame game, it's irrelevant as to who was at fault, with the main point being the result of having an extra player which breaks the basic laws of the game.

What are the precedents by the way?  I'm sure, as it's been with any GAA controversy, that there has been inconsistent actions taken to deal with incidents of similar nature. This is what leads me to think that someone could chance their arm and leave a player on, or a player could keep himself on if possible. Most will know that it's more likely that it will be punished in any way other than a replay or forfeiting of the title, as the macho nature of the GAA more than likely will prevent a club appealing results over infringements as its always seen as sour grapes etc. and most old schoolers would be of the view that you should just suck it up and take it like a man.

[Farrandeelin]

Doesn't HQ have to send the appeal to Kilmacud and give them 3 days for any response they wish to submit.

You'd have thought that if you're looking for KC to respond to something it would be from a ruling Croke have sent them?

It's like a legal thingy... you make your case, I'm asked to respond, then Judge considers and rules on the matter.

I suspect KC will get a fine for not taking their man off and the Ref mind find himself getting eased off the list.

Yes, and I heard Marty Morrissey saying Glen, (if they're unhappy with whatever's said by KC ) can have three more days to consider appealing.