Should An Glenn object?

[Franko]

Ah Christ of almighty

It's like talking to a door.  A stupid door

They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field

How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation

And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all

But they were very careless

So you haven't found the rule?

I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.

You can bleat all you want

You're making a fool of yourself here

They broke Rule 2.1

I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out

Aye dead on,

1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point, when given permission by the Referee.

This didn't happen

And?

I've looked at your rule 2-1 and states a team shall consist of 15 players...

It doesn't say the onus is on the team to ensure when making a substitution that he has to come off, the rule above states (I've highlighted for you) when given permission by the ref, so the onus is with the officials.

Don't agree with your interpretation.

If the onus was not on the team, why would there be a provision for punishing a team and team only when rule broken. If referee is fully responsible rule would be obsolete.

Regarding the highlighted bit, substitution process cannot begin until referee gives permission i.e halts play and signals to line. Nothing in that to suggest referee must manage everything or hold hands with he players through this (self managed) zone. I guess there's a certain level of assumption here that players and management know the rules and are responsible adults.

But sure, grey area now. Going forward rule will likely have to be dumbed down to make it fool proof.

You'll have been at games with actual linesmen? Ok So what basically happens, is the lines man takes the slip. informs the Ref, next break of play sub for team A... the ref blows whistle at next break, player from team A comes on and while that is happening, the linesman holds his flag up in the air till the player sub'd, comes off, Ref blows his whistle, play resumes. At no point in that process is anyone looking to the management of Team A and say thanks for being responsible adults!

Its in the rules, the rule was broken and if I was KC I'd be hammering that to CCCC and saying we did nothing wrong by the rules, we instructed the linesmen 4th official and so on..

Lets see what the CCCC say though, be interesting to see who they through under the bus for this one, the replay forfeit or fine

All the above is just my view on it, referees don't get to have any opinion on what the CCCC do in these matters, the match report is what they work off and if there is other evidence on the day they'll use it also. Too much stuff to twist and turn to suit the outcome.

When will there be a meeting? Tonight?

Finally, you seem to have got there.

I've consistently said the sub rule was broken, I've backed a appeal from the start. Its who broke what rule? The ref, in my opinion started the game without ensuring the player left the field, that was the only mistake here. KC will argue they did everything right that was asked of them. Like I said, be interesting to see how this is worded up when finally done.

See you can post without throwing abuse 

Calm down precious

Kilmacud broke the rule.

The referee doesn't field a team, Kilmacud do - and if there's too many players on the team, then it's Kilmacud who've broken the rule

What you are talking about is why/how they did it

But there's no debate about who did it

[Milltown Row2]

Doesn't HQ have to send the appeal to Kilmacud and give them 3 days for any response they wish to submit.

You'd have thought that if you're looking for KC to respond to something it would be from a ruling Croke have sent them?

[Armagh18]

Think what above shows is that it is not impossible to have a lead lost in the final throws.  I didn't watch a lot of the club championship this year but from the few games I did see Cargin dropped a ball into the box for a last gasp goal in the Ulster Quarter final.  So any chat about the extra man being no advantage and game lost anyway is incorrect.

of course. Happened countless times. Kerry vs Cork in the covid year jumps out, intermediate final in Armagh was decided the same way this year.

[Armagh18]

Ah Christ of almighty

It's like talking to a door.  A stupid door

They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field

How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation

And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all

But they were very careless

So you haven't found the rule?

I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.

You can bleat all you want

You're making a fool of yourself here

They broke Rule 2.1

I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out

Aye dead on,

1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point, when given permission by the Referee.

This didn't happen

And?

I've looked at your rule 2-1 and states a team shall consist of 15 players...

It doesn't say the onus is on the team to ensure when making a substitution that he has to come off, the rule above states (I've highlighted for you) when given permission by the ref, so the onus is with the officials.

Don't agree with your interpretation.

If the onus was not on the team, why would there be a provision for punishing a team and team only when rule broken. If referee is fully responsible rule would be obsolete.

Regarding the highlighted bit, substitution process cannot begin until referee gives permission i.e halts play and signals to line. Nothing in that to suggest referee must manage everything or hold hands with he players through this (self managed) zone. I guess there's a certain level of assumption here that players and management know the rules and are responsible adults.

But sure, grey area now. Going forward rule will likely have to be dumbed down to make it fool proof.

You'll have been at games with actual linesmen? Ok So what basically happens, is the lines man takes the slip. informs the Ref, next break of play sub for team A... the ref blows whistle at next break, player from team A comes on and while that is happening, the linesman holds his flag up in the air till the player sub'd, comes off, Ref blows his whistle, play resumes. At no point in that process is anyone looking to the management of Team A and say thanks for being responsible adults!

Its in the rules, the rule was broken and if I was KC I'd be hammering that to CCCC and saying we did nothing wrong by the rules, we instructed the linesmen 4th official and so on..

Lets see what the CCCC say though, be interesting to see who they through under the bus for this one, the replay forfeit or fine

All the above is just my view on it, referees don't get to have any opinion on what the CCCC do in these matters, the match report is what they work off and if there is other evidence on the day they'll use it also. Too much stuff to twist and turn to suit the outcome.

When will there be a meeting? Tonight?

Finally, you seem to have got there.

I've consistently said the sub rule was broken, I've backed a appeal from the start. Its who broke what rule? The ref, in my opinion started the game without ensuring the player left the field, that was the only mistake here. KC will argue they did everything right that was asked of them. Like I said, be interesting to see how this is worded up when finally done.

See you can post without throwing abuse 

I take it there isn't a rule stating who's responsibility it is to ensure the correct number of players are on the field? Will be one by next year lol

[Milltown Row2]

Ah Christ of almighty

It's like talking to a door.  A stupid door

They broke the rule that says you can only have a max of 15 players on the field

How they broke it or why they broke it or whose fault it was that they broke it is only relevant in mitigation

And no, I don't think they did it on purpose at all

But they were very careless

So you haven't found the rule?

I've said there is a rule break and there are procedures that a forfeit, fine or replay will be determined by Croke.

You can bleat all you want

You're making a fool of yourself here

They broke Rule 2.1

I paraphrased for you, but evidently I need to spell it out

Aye dead on,

1.7 SUBSTITUTION ZONE.
An area of the sideline, extending 5m. on either side of the centre-line, shall be marked as the Substitution Zone, and all the players coming off/going on to the field of play in acts of substitution/temporary substitution shall go through this point, when given permission by the Referee.

This didn't happen

And?

I've looked at your rule 2-1 and states a team shall consist of 15 players...

It doesn't say the onus is on the team to ensure when making a substitution that he has to come off, the rule above states (I've highlighted for you) when given permission by the ref, so the onus is with the officials.

Don't agree with your interpretation.

If the onus was not on the team, why would there be a provision for punishing a team and team only when rule broken. If referee is fully responsible rule would be obsolete.

Regarding the highlighted bit, substitution process cannot begin until referee gives permission i.e halts play and signals to line. Nothing in that to suggest referee must manage everything or hold hands with he players through this (self managed) zone. I guess there's a certain level of assumption here that players and management know the rules and are responsible adults.

But sure, grey area now. Going forward rule will likely have to be dumbed down to make it fool proof.

You'll have been at games with actual linesmen? Ok So what basically happens, is the lines man takes the slip. informs the Ref, next break of play sub for team A... the ref blows whistle at next break, player from team A comes on and while that is happening, the linesman holds his flag up in the air till the player sub'd, comes off, Ref blows his whistle, play resumes. At no point in that process is anyone looking to the management of Team A and say thanks for being responsible adults!

Its in the rules, the rule was broken and if I was KC I'd be hammering that to CCCC and saying we did nothing wrong by the rules, we instructed the linesmen 4th official and so on..

Lets see what the CCCC say though, be interesting to see who they through under the bus for this one, the replay forfeit or fine

All the above is just my view on it, referees don't get to have any opinion on what the CCCC do in these matters, the match report is what they work off and if there is other evidence on the day they'll use it also. Too much stuff to twist and turn to suit the outcome.

When will there be a meeting? Tonight?

Finally, you seem to have got there.

I've consistently said the sub rule was broken, I've backed a appeal from the start. Its who broke what rule? The ref, in my opinion started the game without ensuring the player left the field, that was the only mistake here. KC will argue they did everything right that was asked of them. Like I said, be interesting to see how this is worded up when finally done.

See you can post without throwing abuse 

Calm down precious

Kilmacud broke the rule.

The referee doesn't field a team, Kilmacud do - and if there's too many players on the team, then it's Kilmacud who've broken the rule

What you are talking about is why/how they did it

But there's no debate about who did it

Well, its a case of lets see what Croke say on the matter and how that goes with KC

But I'll not bother about worrying about doing the subs this season, because if the club throws on 16 or 17 players at the end I'll carry on regardless and let the local CCC sort it out when I put in my report

[seafoid]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/26/ciaran-murphy-the-unsettling-gap-between-the-gaa-rulebook-and-the-gaa-way/

At various stages over the last three days, both teams have been asked to judge the merits of this case not from a regulatory standpoint, but from a moral or ethical standpoint. They have had to navigate their path along the GAA Way, not the GAA Rulebook.
That was allowed to happen by extraordinarily weak GAA leadership. Yes, we have been stung multiple times in this country by the scourge of the celebrity sports administrator. And generally speaking, I'm in favour of administrators taking a back seat.
But sometimes you need a GAA President or a GAA Director-General to take the lead in a situation like this. It's not a crime to say the end of this game was mishandled – everyone can see that. There's a difference between refs being scapegoated and being held accountable.
The second the officiating team realised their mistake, the fateful 45 should have been re-taken. They were central GAA's representatives on the field. From that moment on, it was the GAA's mess to clear up. And whatever about the residual power of the GAA Way, the GAA Rulebook will now have the final say.

[Maroon Manc]

So have Croke gave KC a ruling that they have to respond to?

Having been involved in a few objections recently the process was team A objects if objection is found to be in order then team B notified of the objection with the rule that was broken stated and asked to lodge a written admission (assume to give team A a response so they could possibly drop it)and if not both teams would be granted a hearing.

[Eire90]

are we going to end up with some farcical  situation where a replay is not to September or  October.

[seafoid]

are we going to end up with some farcical  situation where a replay is not to September or  October.

The split season is sacrosanct.

[tbrick18]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/26/ciaran-murphy-the-unsettling-gap-between-the-gaa-rulebook-and-the-gaa-way/

At various stages over the last three days, both teams have been asked to judge the merits of this case not from a regulatory standpoint, but from a moral or ethical standpoint. They have had to navigate their path along the GAA Way, not the GAA Rulebook.
That was allowed to happen by extraordinarily weak GAA leadership. Yes, we have been stung multiple times in this country by the scourge of the celebrity sports administrator. And generally speaking, I'm in favour of administrators taking a back seat.
But sometimes you need a GAA President or a GAA Director-General to take the lead in a situation like this. It's not a crime to say the end of this game was mishandled – everyone can see that. There's a difference between refs being scapegoated and being held accountable.
The second the officiating team realised their mistake, the fateful 45 should have been re-taken. They were central GAA's representatives on the field. From that moment on, it was the GAA's mess to clear up. And whatever about the residual power of the GAA Way, the GAA Rulebook will now have the final say.

Spot on.
If the 45 had been re-taken, it is likely KC would still have won and there'd be not a word about it.
As it stands, failure of officials to take action at the time have resulted in this mess.
All that can be done, is to follow the rule book. Let the process run, Glen have raised their objection and KC have time to respond. My understanding is if they don't respond or refute the Objection, then CCCC start an inquiry into Glen's objection. KC could also admit that they had 16 players on the pitch, and in this case an inquiry is not required (I think).

If an inquiry is held and it finds in favour of Glen's objection OR KC admit the fact there were 16 players, then the CCCC have to decide on a punishment, if any. Then both teams have 3 days to appeal that decision.

If KC admit that the grounds of Glen's objection are valid and no inquiry is needed, then the CCCC decide on punishment, if any. And once again, both teams have 3 days to appeal that decision.

It's all a mess but those are the procedures so it's likely to be the middle of next week before we get to any final outcome.

The issue of fault only comes into it when the CCCC are deciding on a potential punishment and those failings of officials, players, team management etc will all be mitigating factors in that decision making process. I'm not sure factors like the score or how much time is left can be considered as a mitigating factor as they don't contribute to the rule breaking.

It's well documented now what the options are if the objection is upheld, which I think it has to be given the video evidence and general acceptance of the extra players being on the pitch for the final play. Both teams are entitled to have the rules applied fairly.
In my opinion, this was probably accidental on KC's part. But that doesn't matter.
Officials could have managed it at the time and made it a non issue, but didn't, and so have let down both teams.
It would be unfair to fine KC for an error from officials, though I'd guess they'd happily take a fine over a replay - but that's a dangerous precedent to set for this type of problem.
It would be unfair on KC to reverse the result and I dont think Glen would want it reversed that way either, but I'm not sure what the circumstances are that require a reversal of the result.
I think a replay is the least worst option, it gives both teams another bite at it and preserves the integrity of the rules going forward.

[seafoid]

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/01/26/ciaran-murphy-the-unsettling-gap-between-the-gaa-rulebook-and-the-gaa-way/

At various stages over the last three days, both teams have been asked to judge the merits of this case not from a regulatory standpoint, but from a moral or ethical standpoint. They have had to navigate their path along the GAA Way, not the GAA Rulebook.
That was allowed to happen by extraordinarily weak GAA leadership. Yes, we have been stung multiple times in this country by the scourge of the celebrity sports administrator. And generally speaking, I'm in favour of administrators taking a back seat.
But sometimes you need a GAA President or a GAA Director-General to take the lead in a situation like this. It's not a crime to say the end of this game was mishandled – everyone can see that. There's a difference between refs being scapegoated and being held accountable.
The second the officiating team realised their mistake, the fateful 45 should have been re-taken. They were central GAA's representatives on the field. From that moment on, it was the GAA's mess to clear up. And whatever about the residual power of the GAA Way, the GAA Rulebook will now have the final say.

Spot on.
If the 45 had been re-taken, it is likely KC would still have won and there'd be not a word about it.
As it stands, failure of officials to take action at the time have resulted in this mess.
All that can be done, is to follow the rule book. Let the process run, Glen have raised their objection and KC have time to respond. My understanding is if they don't respond or refute the Objection, then CCCC start an inquiry into Glen's objection. KC could also admit that they had 16 players on the pitch, and in this case an inquiry is not required (I think).

If an inquiry is held and it finds in favour of Glen's objection OR KC admit the fact there were 16 players, then the CCCC have to decide on a punishment, if any. Then both teams have 3 days to appeal that decision.

If KC admit that the grounds of Glen's objection are valid and no inquiry is needed, then the CCCC decide on punishment, if any. And once again, both teams have 3 days to appeal that decision.

It's all a mess but those are the procedures so it's likely to be the middle of next week before we get to any final outcome.

The issue of fault only comes into it when the CCCC are deciding on a potential punishment and those failings of officials, players, team management etc will all be mitigating factors in that decision making process. I'm not sure factors like the score or how much time is left can be considered as a mitigating factor as they don't contribute to the rule breaking.

It's well documented now what the options are if the objection is upheld, which I think it has to be given the video evidence and general acceptance of the extra players being on the pitch for the final play. Both teams are entitled to have the rules applied fairly.
In my opinion, this was probably accidental on KC's part. But that doesn't matter.
Officials could have managed it at the time and made it a non issue, but didn't, and so have let down both teams.
It would be unfair to fine KC for an error from officials, though I'd guess they'd happily take a fine over a replay - but that's a dangerous precedent to set for this type of problem.
It would be unfair on KC to reverse the result and I dont think Glen would want it reversed that way either, but I'm not sure what the circumstances are that require a reversal of the result.
I think a replay is the least worst option, it gives both teams another bite at it and preserves the integrity of the rules going forward.

Failing to deal with the problem at the right time was the worst option. KC went ahead and celebrated the win. The media analysed the decision for 4 days. The rule book came into question. The ref was undermined. The GAA got a lot of bad publicity.

[yellowcard]

I wonder if either of these teams are back training yet. If either of them got back into training it would give them an edge for the potential replay.

[Milltown Row2]

I wonder if either of these teams are back training yet. If either of them got back into training it would give them an edge for the potential replay.

They have been hard training since June through to Sunday, I'd say they won't lose too much in 5 days

[Milltown Row2]

Unlikely but i would say if replayed KC will be travelling out to the sticks imo.

Why not have it at Croke? it's still, at this time of the year, regardless of how the pitch is at the minute, in a better state than most other county grounds.. Better facilities..

I've not got a message from Croke yet on officiating 

[yellowcard]

I wonder if either of these teams are back training yet. If either of them got back into training it would give them an edge for the potential replay.

They have been hard training since June through to Sunday, I'd say they won't lose too much in 5 days

Thats true but I expect that it will be at least another week before any potential date for a replay can even be set. If players have begun winding down their training programmes as part of their off season they can easily lose conditioning. Ahead of a replay in a few weeks that could be vital.