Shoot to Kill 1982

[Donagh]

From: www.shoottokill25.org

"On 12 December 1982 two unarmed INLA members Seamus Grew and Roddy Carroll were shot dead in Mullacreevie Park in Armagh city. Both men were unarmed with Roddy Carroll being shot from a distance of six feet. Seamus Grew was shot from a distance of two feet by the same RUC officer."

Do you have a problem with the shooting dead of people from two feet then Donagh?

And do you think those behind that wesbite do? (They're awfully coy about the 'careers' of the 'Volunteers' ...)

Do you have a problem with your paramilitary scum being shown up for being the murdering low lives the rest of us know they were?

You could at least attempt to answer my questions, instead of just repsonding with a question Very poor.

Your questions are facetious. I see no need to answer them.

[MW]

From: www.shoottokill25.org

"On 12 December 1982 two unarmed INLA members Seamus Grew and Roddy Carroll were shot dead in Mullacreevie Park in Armagh city. Both men were unarmed with Roddy Carroll being shot from a distance of six feet. Seamus Grew was shot from a distance of two feet by the same RUC officer."

Do you have a problem with the shooting dead of people from two feet then Donagh?

And do you think those behind that wesbite do? (They're awfully coy about the 'careers' of the 'Volunteers' ...)

Do you have a problem with your paramilitary scum being shown up for being the murdering low lives the rest of us know they were?

You could at least attempt to answer my questions, instead of just repsonding with a question Very poor.

Your questions are facetious. I see no need to answer them.

Not facetious. They cut to the very heart of my point - screaming hypocrisy. Those behind that website talk in glowing terms about IRA and INLA terrorists (they even paste articles from AP/RN FFS!) and then whinge about these terrorists getting treatment that they regarded as completely legitimate and acceptable ("we're not committing murder when we break into people's homes and gun them down, or plant bombs in bars and shopping centres, it's a war, oh what's that, on rare occasions someone's actually going to shoot at us? Not fair! Waah! Waaaaah!"). And given that you have also posted in praise of IRA and INLA terrorists, I'd be interested to find out if there's any consistency in your position.

[Donagh]

Point out the parts on the site where they "talk in glowing terms about IRA and INLA terrorists". I also see links to the Guardian and the SBP – I expect you regard those outlets in the same manner as the AP/RN.

The truth is there is nothing factually incorrect on that site. You know nothing of the people behind it or their motivations but rather than retreat out of the comfort blanket of your own bigotry you choose to attack the people behind the site.

[MW]

Point out the parts on the site where they "talk in glowing terms about IRA and INLA terrorists".

Have a look at the 'pen picture' type feature for starters.

I also see links to the Guardian and the SBP – I expect you regard those outlets in the same manner as the AP/RN.

Why on earth would you 'expect' that

I regard AP/RN in the same manner as I do Combat or New Ulster Defender, if more refined.

I regard the Guardian or the SBP in a similar manner to I do the Indepedent or the Daily Telegraph.

The truth is there is nothing factually incorrect on that site. You know nothing of the people behind it or their motivations

I know something, based on what they say and how they say it.

but rather than retreat out of the comfort blanket of your own bigotry you choose to attack the people behind the site.

What, pray tell, do you think I'm 'bigoted' against?

[Donagh]

For one who likes to cry about the Slugger 'ball not man' approach, why don't you live up to it and actually point out the inaccuracies on the site instead of blindly criticising the people you think are behind it.

[MW]

For one who likes to cry about the Slugger 'ball not man' approach, why don't you live up to it and actually point out the inaccuracies on the site instead of blindly criticising the people you think are behind it.

I have never, not once, gone on about "the Slugger 'ball not man' approach". What on earth are you on about

You're missing my point. I'm not saying anything they have said is accurate or inaccurate, I'm pointing out that they're hypocrites for complaining in the way that they do. Which is the crux of the matter for me, in terms of this and much of the whole area of 'truth and reconciliation'. Look at this from the very start of the website - "This year marks the 25th anniversary of the murder of six men in the Armagh area. These men were brutally shot down..." Five of those six men claimed, and carried out, the 'right' to brutally shoot people down, and denied that this was murder. (Of course the IRA and INLA men's murderous activites are instead couched in such terms on this website as: "An extremely active Volunteer"..."A dedicated Volunteer who was always on the lookout for operations,"... )

Now, are you going to tell me what you think I'm 'bigoted' against?

[Donagh]

Who are hypocrites? Tell me what you know about the organisers of that site? How do you know the site hasn't been constructed by Jim Murphy/Y2K but on this occasion has chosen to omit the usual "both sides did terrible things" disclaimer? Would you expect a site dedicated to the RUC, Brit Army. La Mon, Shankill Bomb, to list killings by the RUC etc?

IMO you are bigoted because you run away and retreat into your hole any time you are faced with something that challenges your natural outlook - this thread being an example. Instead of condemning these murders outright, you seek to throw mud in a 'they must have deserved it' way and question the motives of the site owners. Did it never actually occur to you that people in North Armagh from all sections of the nationalist community were deeply traumatised by these events and the reason for remembering them is to highlight the progress that has been made since then?

Re the quote you have given, if you read the copyright info at the bottom of that page you will see that has been taken from elsewhere and not written by the site owners.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

How do you know the site hasn't been constructed by Jim Murphy/Y2K but on this occasion has chosen to omit the usual "both sides did terrible things" disclaimer?

I can assure you I didn't construct that or any other site.

/Jim.

[MW]

Who are hypocrites? Tell me what you know about the organisers of that site? How do you know the site hasn't been constructed by Jim Murphy/Y2K but on this occasion has chosen to omit the usual "both sides did terrible things" disclaimer?

I know what I can read on that site. Sheer hypocrisy.

Would you expect a site dedicated to the RUC, Brit Army. La Mon, Shankill Bomb, to list killings by the RUC etc?

I'd expect any site that claims to want to know the facts to be consistent in their definitions. I'll tell you this - I'd fully expect a loyalist website to praise the likes of Joe Bratty and talk about how he 'defended his community' or whatever, then bleat about how he was murdered. And I'd also find that pretty disgusting.

IMO you are bigoted because you run away and retreat into your hole any time you are faced with something that challenges your natural outlook - this thread being an example.

I'm not retreating from anything - I'm putting my points across to you. Who exactly am I supposed to be 'bigoted' against??

Instead of condemning these murders outright, you seek to throw mud in a 'they must have deserved it' way

I'm not seeking "to throw mud in a 'they must have deserved it' way". I'm quite clear on 5 of them - they did deserve it. (They're covered in mud, if you will). They were IRA and INLA terrorists who advocated and carried out cold-blodded murder. They got the fate they practised and claimed was legitimate. Just as Brian Robinson, John Bingham and Joe Bratty did. (By the way this sin't to say I think it should have happened - I think for example that child rapist/killers deserve a slow painful death but I don't think this should be carried out)

Did it never actually occur to you that people in North Armagh from all sections of the nationalist community were deeply traumatised by these events

They may well have been. However there are planty of victims out there (including killed by the security forces) who weren't supporters and practicioners of the fate they met.

and the reason for remembering them is to highlight the progress that has been made since then?

I have to say that motivation hadn't occurred to me. It doesn't strike me as the likely motivation.

Re the quote you have given, if you read the copyright info at the bottom of that page you will see that has been taken from elsewhere and not written by the site owners.

Maybe I'm picking this up wrong but surely the bit at the bottom of the page that says "shoot to kill 25 (c) Shoot to Kill committee" simply designates that the site is copyright of the committee? (Either way, using this as the front page indicates endorsement of the comments)

[Donagh]

Oh my good God. I really can't believe you have the bare faced cheek to start the post with a reference to hypocrisy and then continue with the rest of that bile. Six men are murdered in cold blood in the most extremely callous way and all you can do is apportion blame on the murdered as opposed to the murderers and those that gave them instructions. I don't know why I'm surprised when we've all experienced the 'that Fenian must have done something to deserve it' attitude emanating from the unionist community. Guilty until proven absolutely and unequivocally innocent eh? That such Neanderthal attitudes still exist and indeed are nurtured in our society today really does sicken.

[SammyG]

Oh my good God. I really can't believe you have the bare faced cheek to start the post with a reference to hypocrisy and then continue with the rest of that bile. Six men are murdered in cold blood in the most extremely callous way and all you can do is apportion blame on the murdered as opposed to the murderers and those that gave them instructions. I don't know why I'm surprised when we've all experienced the 'that Fenian must have done something to deserve it' attitude emanating from the unionist community. Guilty until proven absolutely and unequivocally innocent eh? That such Neanderthal attitudes still exist and indeed are nurtured in our society today really does sicken.

Christ Donagh did you actually read the previous post or did you just have an 'all prods are sectarian bigots' post ready to slot in?

[Donagh]

Jez Sammy I'd have thought that even someone like yourself, so good at reading things in posts that don't exist would even have picked up on the line which clearly endorses murder. Let me do you the courtesy you find so difficult to afford others and reprint it for you:

"I'm quite clear on 5 of them - they did deserve it."

There is no doubt that these men were callously murdered and even twenty five years later that fella can't even bring himself to the offer the families of the murdered the same basic rights he would demand for himself and the good old paramilitary killers of the RUC.

[SammyG]

Jez Sammy I'd have thought that even someone like yourself, so good at reading things in posts that don't exist would even have picked up on the line which clearly endorses murder. Let me do you the courtesy you find so difficult to afford others and reprint it for you:

"I'm quite clear on 5 of them - they did deserve it."

There is no doubt that these men were callously murdered and even twenty five years later that fella can't even bring himself to the offer the families of the murdered the same basic rights he would demand for himself and the good old paramilitary killers of the RUC.

I read the post. Interesting that you choose to pull out one line that suits your very narrow agenda but miss the following "(By the way this sin't to say I think it should have happened - I think for example that child rapist/killers deserve a slow painful death but I don't think this should be carried out)" which qualifies the previous comment.

I think most normal people would agree that they wouldn't shed to many tears for a sectarian murderer who got what he dealt, but that's totally different from wanting it to happen or thinking that the security forces should have carte blanche, which they clearly didn't.

[Donagh]

It qualifies nothing of the sort – what is it you like to call it – doublespeak?

The only agenda I have is to highlight the crime not only committed on these six men but also those that were inflicted on their families over the intervening 25 years, some of whom are still even waiting for an inquest to be held. We all know there were horrible atrocities committed on all sides. However if a man can't bring himself to acknowledge this horrible miscarriage of justice and clear case of state sanctioned murder in it's own right without resorting whataboutry or 'they deserved it' bullshit, then he is indeed a weak and cowardly individual. For that read that I am referring to MW.

[SammyG]

It qualifies nothing of the sort – what is it you like to call it – doublespeak?

Surely if there are two sentences in the same post, you have to read them together not in isolation.

The only agenda I have is to highlight the crime not only committed on these six men but also those that were inflicted on their families over the intervening 25 years, some of whom are still even waiting for an inquest to be held. We all know there were horrible atrocities committed on all sides. However if a man can't bring himself to acknowledge this horrible miscarriage of justice and clear case of state sanctioned murder in it's own right without resorting whataboutry or 'they deserved it' bullshit, then he is indeed a weak and cowardly individual. For that read that I am referring to MW.

Strange that you don't have the same sympathy/calls for enquiries/etc for the victims of these 'brave volunteers'.