Messi or Ronaldo - Who's best

[nrico2006]

The Messi fanboys don't like context being added to the statistics.

Shevchenko scored more competitive goals at international level for Ukraine than Messi did for Argentina in about 30 less games.

Yes he scored against the likes of N. Ireland, Armenia, Wales (2001 version), Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Albania, Luxembourg, Andorra - would Messi get to play against countries as weak as that in WC and Copa America qualifiers?

Yes.

Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, Paraguay, Venezeula.

And Messi plays for 14x Copa America winners and 2x World Cup Winners Argentina.

Those South American countries would be better than the European ones. Dont see what Argentinas past achievements have got to do with it, their squads in Messi's era were not to the standard that had gone before.

Would they?

On what basis would the likes of Bolivia be better than N. Ireland, Armenia or Albania?

If we were to use your rationale, they are simply better due to their international pedigree.

[Angelo]

The Messi fanboys don't like context being added to the statistics.

Shevchenko scored more competitive goals at international level for Ukraine than Messi did for Argentina in about 30 less games.

Yes he scored against the likes of N. Ireland, Armenia, Wales (2001 version), Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Albania, Luxembourg, Andorra - would Messi get to play against countries as weak as that in WC and Copa America qualifiers?

Yes.

Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, Paraguay, Venezeula.

And Messi plays for 14x Copa America winners and 2x World Cup Winners Argentina.

Those South American countries would be better than the European ones. Dont see what Argentinas past achievements have got to do with it, their squads in Messi's era were not to the standard that had gone before.

Would they?

On what basis would the likes of Bolivia be better than N. Ireland, Armenia or Albania?

If we were to use your rationale, they are simply better due to their international pedigree.

South American teams automatically enter the Copa America without any qualifcation process and have a much easier qualifying path than European teams.

European teams are really baldy discriminated against when it comes to World Cup qualification.

[From the Bunker]

The Messi fanboys don't like context being added to the statistics.

Shevchenko scored more competitive goals at international level for Ukraine than Messi did for Argentina in about 30 less games.

Yes he scored against the likes of N. Ireland, Armenia, Wales (2001 version), Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Albania, Luxembourg, Andorra - would Messi get to play against countries as weak as that in WC and Copa America qualifiers?

Yes.

Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, Paraguay, Venezeula.

And Messi plays for 14x Copa America winners and 2x World Cup Winners Argentina.

Those South American countries would be better than the European ones. Dont see what Argentinas past achievements have got to do with it, their squads in Messi's era were not to the standard that had gone before.

Would they?

On what basis would the likes of Bolivia be better than N. Ireland, Armenia or Albania?

If we were to use your rationale, they are simply better due to their international pedigree.

South American teams automatically enter the Copa America without any qualifcation process and have a much easier qualifying path than European teams.

European teams are really baldy discriminated against when it comes to World Cup qualification.

Uruguay (5), Colombia(10), Peru(21), Brazil (3), Venezuela(25), Bolivia(75)Paraguay(41), Argentina (9), Chile(17) and Ecuador(63) - Top 4 out of 10 automatically qualify. 5th place goes into a play-off.

Bar Ecuador and Bolivia - South America is pretty competitive.

[ONeill]

This is a fantastic thread.

[From the Bunker]

This is a fantastic thread.

[quit yo jibbajabba]

Some boys going to a wile lot of effort to prove the WUM wrong. The WUMs puttin in a fair bit of effort also it has to be said.

Carry on

[Angelo]

The Messi fanboys don't like context being added to the statistics.

Shevchenko scored more competitive goals at international level for Ukraine than Messi did for Argentina in about 30 less games.

Yes he scored against the likes of N. Ireland, Armenia, Wales (2001 version), Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Albania, Luxembourg, Andorra - would Messi get to play against countries as weak as that in WC and Copa America qualifiers?

Yes.

Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, Paraguay, Venezeula.

And Messi plays for 14x Copa America winners and 2x World Cup Winners Argentina.

Those South American countries would be better than the European ones. Dont see what Argentinas past achievements have got to do with it, their squads in Messi's era were not to the standard that had gone before.

Would they?

On what basis would the likes of Bolivia be better than N. Ireland, Armenia or Albania?

If we were to use your rationale, they are simply better due to their international pedigree.

South American teams automatically enter the Copa America without any qualifcation process and have a much easier qualifying path than European teams.

European teams are really baldy discriminated against when it comes to World Cup qualification.

Uruguay (5), Colombia(10), Peru(21), Brazil (3), Venezuela(25), Bolivia(75)Paraguay(41), Argentina (9), Chile(17) and Ecuador(63) - Top 4 out of 10 automatically qualify. 5th place goes into a play-off.

Bar Ecuador and Bolivia - South America is pretty competitive.

Is that FIFA World Rankings you are using?

So 40% of South American teams are guaranteed qualification and another side has a 50-50 chance to bring it up to 50%?

What do Europe get? About 10% chance of qualification?

[nrico2006]

I think we all agree that Shevchenko, Totti and Nedved were nowhere near the player Messi is.  To say otherwise is simply ridiculous, plus there have been better midfielders/strikers than Shevchenko, Totti and Nedved over the past 20 years too other than Ronaldo or Messi.

[Itchy]

I think we all agree that Shevchenko, Totti and Nedved were nowhere near the player Messi is.  To say otherwise is simply ridiculous, plus there have been better midfielders/strikers than Shevchenko, Totti and Nedved over the past 20 years too other than Ronaldo or Messi.

What about Steve Bruce. He played Centre back for Man Utd and once scored 20 goals in a season and this was no ordinary season, this was during the height of football excellence when Lee Sharpe terrorised defences. I don't remember Messi ever even playing Centre Back never mind scoring 20 goals from there. Likewise for Shevchenko and Nedved, never did anything from Centre Back. Steve Bruce I tells ya.

[Angelo]

I think we all agree that Shevchenko, Totti and Nedved were nowhere near the player Messi is.  To say otherwise is simply ridiculous, plus there have been better midfielders/strikers than Shevchenko, Totti and Nedved over the past 20 years too other than Ronaldo or Messi.

Everytime there is context added to Messi's stats put forward the goalposts shift from the Messi fanboys.

The difference is that Totti/Shevchenko/Nedved all played in a generation that was laden with stars where Messi and Ronaldo have played in a fairly mediocre era.

Take De Bruyne for instance, if he is one of the top midfielders in the world right now then it says it all. If Van Dijk is the best defender in the world right now, then it says it all. None of these players would have stood out as anything above average in 10-20 years ago.

The guys who have actually tried to argue with me on this are the ones who have strengthened my argument, look at what you have been able to uncover about Messi.

Only ever done it at one club, completely unproven anywhere else.
A failure at international level.
A failure against Italian clubs.
A guy who has scored half of his international goals in friendlies.
A guy who failed to score in the WC knockout stage in 8 appearances.
A guy who played in a national team laden with CL/EPL/La Liga/Serie A winners and went hiding when his country needed him

What was it Maradona said about Messi a few years back? "Are you Argentinian or Swedish?" The meaning being that Agrentina are a superpower on the international football stage, you look at their squad, it will have guys from PSG, Man City, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Inter Milan, Juventus, Man Utd, Spurs, Atletico Madrid etc.

And he can't deliver with that? Why not? Well all we know is that he's a great player with a wonderful Barcelona side but the only evidence outside of that comfort zone is a failure and people tend to get too hung up on hat tricks against Eibar and Levante and Haiti and Guatemala.

Nedved and Sheva were the type of guys I'd rely on in the white heat of battle. Nedved in particular, the guy was a warrior, a proper leader who did iywherever he went in his career, an inspiration at international level.

A lot of you are either 16 or have only really a passive interest in football.

[thewobbler]

I can't wait for your next critical analysis.

Michael Jordan underachieved, by at least half.

The current Dublin team is worthless unless they do 6 in a row.

The Godather is the weakest Oscar winning movie o all time.

The Beatles had zero influence on pop music.

The internet wasn't an important invention.

Hot food is overrated.

Breathing is for wankers.

[thewobbler]

I mean like somewhere along the line, when you keep pulling stats out of your arse, you must encounter the 700 goals, 300 assists (not his job apparently), 10 national titles and 4 European titles.

You don't have to conclude that the regularity of his goal scoring and assists making was the central cog in all of those titles. But you'd have to be one seriously fucked up individual to spend days researching against that opinion.

[Angelo]

Is Messi a greater player than Suarez?

I really think that is dubious, nevermind to go at legends who played in a different generation that was crammed with world class players.

[Angelo]

I mean like somewhere along the line, when you keep pulling stats out of your arse, you must encounter the 700 goals, 300 assists (not his job apparently), 10 national titles and 4 European titles.

You don't have to conclude that the regularity of his goal scoring and assists making was the central cog in all of those titles. But you'd have to be one seriously fucked up individual to spend days researching against that opinion.

Stats are like mini skirts.

What is very interesting is that he's only done it at Barcelona.

The other tangible comparison we have is Argentina where he has been an abrupt failure.

Hat tricks against Levante, Eibar, Guatemala and Haiti really paint a picture of a bit of a flat track bully.

[thewobbler]

If Schevenko and Nedved really are your gold standard for the previous generation, then you really need to rethink how you describe that generation.

By the way, the two best players of that generation were Messi and Ronaldo (in no particular order).