The ulster rugby trial

[magpie seanie]

Indeed. I posted the one on boards.ie.

So why were you using a different handle to your normal one then? The staff and admins there don't take too kindly to people having multiple accounts.

As far as I know this isn't a forum handle inquisition thread.

Neither was it's original intention to talk about "rape culture" which wouldn't have raised it's head had guilty verdicts in the case in question been given. But no thread ever goes off-topic...

How can you think this is off topic? Seriously? 

[sid waddell]

Strange too that Bummer thinks there wouldn't have been a verdict about rape culture had there been guilty verdicts.

[Syferus]

Indeed. I posted the one on boards.ie.

So why were you using a different handle to your normal one then? The staff and admins there don't take too kindly to people having multiple accounts.

As far as I know this isn't a forum handle inquisition thread.

Neither was it's original intention to talk about "rape culture" which wouldn't have raised it's head had guilty verdicts in the case in question been given. But no thread ever goes off-topic...

Walked yourself into this one, eh?

[Hound]

There is a huge "disrespect to women" culture among men talking to men they're very friendly with. Some of it is malicious, most of it is just bravado or "fun" and not actually meant. Most involved would be hugely embarrassed if "caught" by a woman they know saying or texting this stuff. It's wrong and should be stopped, and maybe akin to our drinking culture it has been regarded as acceptable (among a too large group of men) for far too long.

I don't know if this is growing or not. In my experience, its been this way for a long time, not getting better or worse. But maybe it is worse among young adults. But people saying "it's time to call a halt to this" are right.

Open disrespect to women exists also, in a much less sizeable group of men. I think the number of men who engage in this is getting less all the time. And I think this means that those who do it openly get highlighted more, it's finally become taboo, which is a good thing, of course.

To equate any of the above to "rape culture" is absolute nonsense. And those who do that are ever bit as bad as the neanderthals who openly disrespect women.

[easytiger95]

That's what I'd suggest too bcb. But to be honest I think anyone who doesn't understand No means No, and who thinks performing sex acts on a sleeping woman, or who thinks that marital rape is not a thing, like domestic violence, is hardly reflective of a culture. I can't believe those beliefs are widespread enough to be called a 'culture'.

The lack of respect in the language used, the expectations and behaviours, even entirely consensual, is probably more of a culture than any 'rape' culture.

I think we are all getting hung up on the label "rape culture". I think we need to define what is a culture before looking at what that culture represents. For me, a culture is an environment or atmosphere that permeates language and behaviour. Whilst we have laws banning rape and courts to pursue those who are accused, those are constitutional and legal institutions, representing democratic or social norms and mores (the women's suffragette movement was an explicitly political process). They are not cultural norms or mores.

For instance, if you ask 100 lads on this board (or any other) should tax evaders be prosecuted, to a man they would probably say yes. That is a democratic and social norm - for our society to function there must be a presumption of equality before the law, and a presumption that all are willing to contribute to the society.

However, ask the same 100 if they were willing to do a nixer for you, a large number of them would say, ah sure why wouldn't I? That is cultural, the sideways glance at authority and an appreciation for the cute hoor. And there are good historical reasons for that.

Just because, as a society, we have designated certain acts to be illegal, does not mean that a culture cannot exist that subliminally encourages those acts. As anyone who can remember the atmosphere of corruption and sleaze that permeated Irish political life in the 80s, 90s and 00s would know, laws are aspirations, not definitive statements of what we are as a society - if they were, no none would ever have to be prosecuted because no one would be breaking laws.

I'm 42 now, and I would say my generation were the last to be able to have a completely offline life up to our early 20s, but were also the first, really, to deal with concepts like political correctness, the possible consequences of promiscuity (I remember the AIDS scare looming large over my teens), the changing place of women and minorities in our society. Which is not to say there was no feminism before the 90s, but as far we were concerned, the battles had been fought, equality was the way forward, and the question was settled.

Fast forward to now - as most have said, and I am willing to admit, I have objectified and belittled women in my past - mostly through ignorance and obliviousness (sure what are they complaining about, aren't we all equal now anyway?). But I cannot remember referring to women in the terms that we have seen, not just through this trial, but throughout our society. These are violent, dehumanising terms and it scares me to think that they are bandied about like that. I think there is a big link from porn to misogyny. Haranguerer was saying earlier that porn depicts both men and women enjoying sex - I don't think it could be further from the truth.

Porn is a power dynamic - the person whose fantasy it is holds the power. The woman's role is always performative - either the Madonna or the whore, dominant or submissive, participant or victim - she exists only in the gaze of the man and for the man's pleasure. She has no agency in the fantasy or scenario. She is being used, and increasingly it seems, violently. (I'm also sure that there is porn made for women by women, but it is nowhere near the pervasive influence that the traditional porn industry is.)

But if that is a bit esoteric for you, how about we remember Richard Keys and "did you smash it"? Or David Cameron and his "calm down dear"? Or the fact that men were actually surprised at the relevations of #metoo but every woman I know merely shook their heads and said it happens all the time? Or the fact that in RTE and the BBC, and in most industries, women have to suffer all manner of slight and abuse, but still can't get paid the same as men for doing the same job, a gap that is only getting worse?

We may not have a culture that says "rape is fine". But we do have a culture that says women are worth less, know less and are paid less than men, that still objectifies them everyday sexually, but now, perhaps worse than the 70s and 80s, instead of being honest about our chauvinism, we insist that we are all equal, and can they not have a sense of humour about things. And I think that is a regression from where we were when I was growing up.

And if we can't admit that such a culture as described above makes the abuse, even the rape of women, more likely, and if we prefer to argue about labels like "rape culture", than I can only see things deteriorating from here.

[AZOffaly]

Hung up on the label? It can't be both ways. The term can't be introduced, and when people raise eyebrows, then go 'don't get hung up on the term'. If you (not you personally, or sid or anyone else here) don't mean 'culture' then don't say it.

As for the rest of the post, I agree with most/all of it.

[Farrandeelin]

Fantastic post easytiger.

[Hound]

We may not have a culture that says "rape is fine". But we do have a culture that says women are worth less, know less and are paid less than men, that still objectifies them everyday sexually, but now, perhaps worse than the 70s and 80s, instead of being honest about our chauvinism, we insist that we are all equal, and can they not have a sense of humour about things. And I think that is a regression from where we were when I was growing up.

And if we can't admit that such a culture as described above makes the abuse, even the rape of women, more likely, and if we prefer to argue about labels like "rape culture", than I can only see things deteriorating from here.

Is that true or an exaggeration? In what jobs are men paid more than women for doing exactly the same as a woman?
I've worked in Dublin city centre for 20 years and that's not my experience (although not saying it doesn't exist, just I haven't come across it among my peers). More women graduates been taken on in the financial sector than male graduates. Although maybe you're talking about women missing out on promotions because of time spent on maternity leave? That's happening alright, although maybe less than before.

In some countries maternity leave is split between men and women in whatever proportion the couple agree. That would be a good idea over here.

[passedit]

That's what I'd suggest too bcb. But to be honest I think anyone who doesn't understand No means No, and who thinks performing sex acts on a sleeping woman, or who thinks that marital rape is not a thing, like domestic violence, is hardly reflective of a culture. I can't believe those beliefs are widespread enough to be called a 'culture'.

The lack of respect in the language used, the expectations and behaviours, even entirely consensual, is probably more of a culture than any 'rape' culture.

I think we are all getting hung up on the label "rape culture". I think we need to define what is a culture before looking at what that culture represents. For me, a culture is an environment or atmosphere that permeates language and behaviour. Whilst we have laws banning rape and courts to pursue those who are accused, those are constitutional and legal institutions, representing democratic or social norms and mores (the women's suffragette movement was an explicitly political process). They are not cultural norms or mores.

For instance, if you ask 100 lads on this board (or any other) should tax evaders be prosecuted, to a man they would probably say yes. That is a democratic and social norm - for our society to function there must be a presumption of equality before the law, and a presumption that all are willing to contribute to the society.

However, ask the same 100 if they were willing to do a nixer for you, a large number of them would say, ah sure why wouldn't I? That is cultural, the sideways glance at authority and an appreciation for the cute hoor. And there are good historical reasons for that.

Just because, as a society, we have designated certain acts to be illegal, does not mean that a culture cannot exist that subliminally encourages those acts. As anyone who can remember the atmosphere of corruption and sleaze that permeated Irish political life in the 80s, 90s and 00s would know, laws are aspirations, not definitive statements of what we are as a society - if they were, no none would ever have to be prosecuted because no one would be breaking laws.

I'm 42 now, and I would say my generation were the last to be able to have a completely offline life up to our early 20s, but were also the first, really, to deal with concepts like political correctness, the possible consequences of promiscuity (I remember the AIDS scare looming large over my teens), the changing place of women and minorities in our society. Which is not to say there was no feminism before the 90s, but as far we were concerned, the battles had been fought, equality was the way forward, and the question was settled.

Fast forward to now - as most have said, and I am willing to admit, I have objectified and belittled women in my past - mostly through ignorance and obliviousness (sure what are they complaining about, aren't we all equal now anyway?). But I cannot remember referring to women in the terms that we have seen, not just through this trial, but throughout our society. These are violent, dehumanising terms and it scares me to think that they are bandied about like that. I think there is a big link from porn to misogyny. Haranguerer was saying earlier that porn depicts both men and women enjoying sex - I don't think it could be further from the truth.

Porn is a power dynamic - the person whose fantasy it is holds the power. The woman's role is always performative - either the Madonna or the whore, dominant or submissive, participant or victim - she exists only in the gaze of the man and for the man's pleasure. She has no agency in the fantasy or scenario. She is being used, and increasingly it seems, violently. (I'm also sure that there is porn made for women by women, but it is nowhere near the pervasive influence that the traditional porn industry is.)

But if that is a bit esoteric for you, how about we remember Richard Keys and "did you smash it"? Or David Cameron and his "calm down dear"? Or the fact that men were actually surprised at the relevations of #metoo but every woman I know merely shook their heads and said it happens all the time? Or the fact that in RTE and the BBC, and in most industries, women have to suffer all manner of slight and abuse, but still can't get paid the same as men for doing the same job, a gap that is only getting worse?

We may not have a culture that says "rape is fine". But we do have a culture that says women are worth less, know less and are paid less than men, that still objectifies them everyday sexually, but now, perhaps worse than the 70s and 80s, instead of being honest about our chauvinism, we insist that we are all equal, and can they not have a sense of humour about things. And I think that is a regression from where we were when I was growing up.

And if we can't admit that such a culture as described above makes the abuse, even the rape of women, more likely, and if we prefer to argue about labels like "rape culture", than I can only see things deteriorating from here.

Put more eloquently than I was about to. I'd add that these same attitudes apply to domestic violence which has the same issues
I.e There's too much of it, It's greatly underreported, underprosecuted and underpunished (by verdict and sentence).

[Tony Baloney]

So a culture then of not treating women as equals rather than a rape culture? Saying that in the first place would have saved people a lot of time writing (or copying and pasting) and reading long articles. I think we'd all agree on that front but not on a "rape culture" within Ireland or the UK.

[magpie seanie]

That's what I'd suggest too bcb. But to be honest I think anyone who doesn't understand No means No, and who thinks performing sex acts on a sleeping woman, or who thinks that marital rape is not a thing, like domestic violence, is hardly reflective of a culture. I can't believe those beliefs are widespread enough to be called a 'culture'.

The lack of respect in the language used, the expectations and behaviours, even entirely consensual, is probably more of a culture than any 'rape' culture.

I think we are all getting hung up on the label "rape culture". I think we need to define what is a culture before looking at what that culture represents. For me, a culture is an environment or atmosphere that permeates language and behaviour. Whilst we have laws banning rape and courts to pursue those who are accused, those are constitutional and legal institutions, representing democratic or social norms and mores (the women's suffragette movement was an explicitly political process). They are not cultural norms or mores.

For instance, if you ask 100 lads on this board (or any other) should tax evaders be prosecuted, to a man they would probably say yes. That is a democratic and social norm - for our society to function there must be a presumption of equality before the law, and a presumption that all are willing to contribute to the society.

However, ask the same 100 if they were willing to do a nixer for you, a large number of them would say, ah sure why wouldn't I? That is cultural, the sideways glance at authority and an appreciation for the cute hoor. And there are good historical reasons for that.

Just because, as a society, we have designated certain acts to be illegal, does not mean that a culture cannot exist that subliminally encourages those acts. As anyone who can remember the atmosphere of corruption and sleaze that permeated Irish political life in the 80s, 90s and 00s would know, laws are aspirations, not definitive statements of what we are as a society - if they were, no none would ever have to be prosecuted because no one would be breaking laws.

I'm 42 now, and I would say my generation were the last to be able to have a completely offline life up to our early 20s, but were also the first, really, to deal with concepts like political correctness, the possible consequences of promiscuity (I remember the AIDS scare looming large over my teens), the changing place of women and minorities in our society. Which is not to say there was no feminism before the 90s, but as far we were concerned, the battles had been fought, equality was the way forward, and the question was settled.

Fast forward to now - as most have said, and I am willing to admit, I have objectified and belittled women in my past - mostly through ignorance and obliviousness (sure what are they complaining about, aren't we all equal now anyway?). But I cannot remember referring to women in the terms that we have seen, not just through this trial, but throughout our society. These are violent, dehumanising terms and it scares me to think that they are bandied about like that. I think there is a big link from porn to misogyny. Haranguerer was saying earlier that porn depicts both men and women enjoying sex - I don't think it could be further from the truth.

Porn is a power dynamic - the person whose fantasy it is holds the power. The woman's role is always performative - either the Madonna or the whore, dominant or submissive, participant or victim - she exists only in the gaze of the man and for the man's pleasure. She has no agency in the fantasy or scenario. She is being used, and increasingly it seems, violently. (I'm also sure that there is porn made for women by women, but it is nowhere near the pervasive influence that the traditional porn industry is.)

But if that is a bit esoteric for you, how about we remember Richard Keys and "did you smash it"? Or David Cameron and his "calm down dear"? Or the fact that men were actually surprised at the relevations of #metoo but every woman I know merely shook their heads and said it happens all the time? Or the fact that in RTE and the BBC, and in most industries, women have to suffer all manner of slight and abuse, but still can't get paid the same as men for doing the same job, a gap that is only getting worse?

We may not have a culture that says "rape is fine". But we do have a culture that says women are worth less, know less and are paid less than men, that still objectifies them everyday sexually, but now, perhaps worse than the 70s and 80s, instead of being honest about our chauvinism, we insist that we are all equal, and can they not have a sense of humour about things. And I think that is a regression from where we were when I was growing up.

And if we can't admit that such a culture as described above makes the abuse, even the rape of women, more likely, and if we prefer to argue about labels like "rape culture", than I can only see things deteriorating from here.

Put more eloquently than I was about to. I'd add that these same attitudes apply to domestic violence which has the same issues
I.e There's too much of it, It's greatly underreported, underprosecuted and underpunished (by verdict and sentence).

+1. Excellent post.

[Franko]

That's what I'd suggest too bcb. But to be honest I think anyone who doesn't understand No means No, and who thinks performing sex acts on a sleeping woman, or who thinks that marital rape is not a thing, like domestic violence, is hardly reflective of a culture. I can't believe those beliefs are widespread enough to be called a 'culture'.

The lack of respect in the language used, the expectations and behaviours, even entirely consensual, is probably more of a culture than any 'rape' culture.

I think we are all getting hung up on the label "rape culture". I think we need to define what is a culture before looking at what that culture represents. For me, a culture is an environment or atmosphere that permeates language and behaviour. Whilst we have laws banning rape and courts to pursue those who are accused, those are constitutional and legal institutions, representing democratic or social norms and mores (the women's suffragette movement was an explicitly political process). They are not cultural norms or mores.

For instance, if you ask 100 lads on this board (or any other) should tax evaders be prosecuted, to a man they would probably say yes. That is a democratic and social norm - for our society to function there must be a presumption of equality before the law, and a presumption that all are willing to contribute to the society.

However, ask the same 100 if they were willing to do a nixer for you, a large number of them would say, ah sure why wouldn't I? That is cultural, the sideways glance at authority and an appreciation for the cute hoor. And there are good historical reasons for that.

Just because, as a society, we have designated certain acts to be illegal, does not mean that a culture cannot exist that subliminally encourages those acts. As anyone who can remember the atmosphere of corruption and sleaze that permeated Irish political life in the 80s, 90s and 00s would know, laws are aspirations, not definitive statements of what we are as a society - if they were, no none would ever have to be prosecuted because no one would be breaking laws.

I'm 42 now, and I would say my generation were the last to be able to have a completely offline life up to our early 20s, but were also the first, really, to deal with concepts like political correctness, the possible consequences of promiscuity (I remember the AIDS scare looming large over my teens), the changing place of women and minorities in our society. Which is not to say there was no feminism before the 90s, but as far we were concerned, the battles had been fought, equality was the way forward, and the question was settled.

Fast forward to now - as most have said, and I am willing to admit, I have objectified and belittled women in my past - mostly through ignorance and obliviousness (sure what are they complaining about, aren't we all equal now anyway?). But I cannot remember referring to women in the terms that we have seen, not just through this trial, but throughout our society. These are violent, dehumanising terms and it scares me to think that they are bandied about like that. I think there is a big link from porn to misogyny. Haranguerer was saying earlier that porn depicts both men and women enjoying sex - I don't think it could be further from the truth.

Porn is a power dynamic - the person whose fantasy it is holds the power. The woman's role is always performative - either the Madonna or the whore, dominant or submissive, participant or victim - she exists only in the gaze of the man and for the man's pleasure. She has no agency in the fantasy or scenario. She is being used, and increasingly it seems, violently. (I'm also sure that there is porn made for women by women, but it is nowhere near the pervasive influence that the traditional porn industry is.)

But if that is a bit esoteric for you, how about we remember Richard Keys and "did you smash it"? Or David Cameron and his "calm down dear"? Or the fact that men were actually surprised at the relevations of #metoo but every woman I know merely shook their heads and said it happens all the time? Or the fact that in RTE and the BBC, and in most industries, women have to suffer all manner of slight and abuse, but still can't get paid the same as men for doing the same job, a gap that is only getting worse?

We may not have a culture that says "rape is fine". But we do have a culture that says women are worth less, know less and are paid less than men, that still objectifies them everyday sexually, but now, perhaps worse than the 70s and 80s, instead of being honest about our chauvinism, we insist that we are all equal, and can they not have a sense of humour about things. And I think that is a regression from where we were when I was growing up.

And if we can't admit that such a culture as described above makes the abuse, even the rape of women, more likely, and if we prefer to argue about labels like "rape culture", than I can only see things deteriorating from here.

Very good post and I'd agree with most of it.  I've a couple of issues with it though.

First of all, your analogy doesn't work.  If your mate says to you "I did a few little cash jobs there and dodged the revenue", I'd venture that you'd not give it a second thought.  If he says, "I raped a girl and got away with it"... well.

The term "rape culture" isn't a fit for the attitudes you have described.  You can't say that someone ascribes to/is part of a "rape culture" because he said "Calm down dear".  It's hyperbolic and it turns people away from examining the real issues because they take one look at the language, think "I don't have that problem" and continue on their way.  "Misogyny culture", "disrespect culture" I could agree with.

But like I said at the start, good post.

[Bord na Mona man]

The points about the treatment of women are well made and I think these are often done unconsciously. It is no harm for males to take stock of some of their behaviours and how they affect women.

But to try and brand all this stuff a "rape culture" is dingbat stuff.
So lads fighting outside the chipper are part of a "killing culture" because it makes the possibly of someone dying greater.
People playing hurling are partaking in a "finger breaking culture" because the possibilities of this happening are vastly increased as opposed to playing snooker. Rugby a "neck breaking culture" etc. etc.

Unfortunately the shock jock tactics do the cause no favour. Just my thought, but I'm probably misogynistic, woman hater.

[Syferus]

The semantic arguments the last two posts have fixated on are just incredible.

[easytiger95]

My point is that the label as it stands - ie rape culture- is so politicised that it becomes the problem. How i would describe it is a culture that in its most toxic manifestations faciltates rape. And even that description is not nuanced enough.
Arguments about the label, in my opinion, distracts us from confronting the continuing pathologies in our society around this- harassment, pay inequality, sexual violence etc- which are real and continuous problems for women. I think most of us are in agreement about the existence of those problems.