The ulster rugby trial

[Franko]

The media.  If reporting restrictions are lifted, I expect her to be publicly named, and then some pieces about who she is, her background etc. Then the 'unnamed friend' sources with some gossipy stuff. This application should be rejected.

They should all be allowed to get on with their lives. The have obviously seen there is plenty of traction on social media and want to make money whilst it's the current hot topic. Agree that it should be rejected - it's certainly not in anyone's interest in the short term (complainant and defendants) or long-term (if they go after her it may make it less likely for others to come forward) other than the meedja and those looking for salacious gossip.

'They should all be allowed to get on with their lives'...Currently this is far from the case for the defendants - there may well be further relevant facts which would allow those involved to get on with their lives. Full disclosure is to be welcomed, especially given the trial by twitter.

And someone (almost) named after a venereal disease on the GAABoard.

[sid waddell]

Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Rape culture exists among a huge proportion of men.

I'd like to see any arguments for why people think it doesn't.

Sorry but the burden is on you to prove that it does exist.

I see the following as aspects of rape culture.

Ignorance of or deliberate misunderstanding as to what constitutes rape, ie. the tropes about "if a woman doesn't scream, it can't be rape", which the defence QCs in the Belfast trial implied. We've actually had posters here who believed this, and not just the dregs who you'd expect to be ignorant but otherwise good posters who I would have thought this wouldn't have needed to be explained to. Implying or stating that spousal rape cannot exist, as George Hook did.

A belief that it's just fine to perform a sex act on a person who is asleep, and who by definition cannot give consent. On another widely read Irish forum there have been several posters claiming that this is just fine. It's sexual assault at best and outright rape at worst. There was a high profile court case in Ireland not very long ago where a man commited ten such rapes and was sentenced to no jail time whatsoever - it was subsequently appealed and he got 15 months.

A belief that a woman cannot withdraw consent at any point during sex. She can.

Deliberately and mendaciously twisting the verdict of a trial to make out that a jury has found a complainant's allegations of rape to be lies.

Humiliation - the "Love Belfast Sluts" meme Blane McIlroy sent around, the demands to publicly out the complainant. The sickening feasting on the Slane Girl video and the attempt to publicly out her.

A belief that a woman desperately asking a man to "at least use a condom" constitutes consent. It doesn't. Again, this was a line pushed by the defence QCs.

A belief that a woman entering a man's bedroom equals consent. There should always be a presumption of no consent until it's made clear consent exists.

A belief that "no" doesn't mean no. This has been relentlessly pushed through popular culture, movies etc.

Joking about rape.

Using the utterly bogus argument of "personal responsibility" to mitigate the heinous crime of rape. There is no such a thing as the responsibility of a person to not be the victim of a crime, only the responsibility of a person to not commit a crime.

A belief that women who wear certain clothes or get drunk are in any way at all responsible if they are raped. They aren't. There is no such a thing as a woman "asking for it".

Being influenced by porn that explicitly degrades women.

Referring to women as animals in language, ie. as a pig in a "spit roast", or a "dog" or a "cow" or a "bitch". Other terms such as "bird", "chick" or "filly" may be less ostensibly hostile but they still portray women as animals.

Referring to sex as something a man does to a woman, and in violent terms - "ruined her", "destroyed her", "pumped her", "smashed her," "ploughed her". So much of the language men use surrounding sex is based around violence.

Using deliberately degrading terms for women - "sluts", "whores", "brasses", "slags" etc., while referring to men as "legends", "top shaggers", "swordsmen" etc.

The assumption of male power and male primacy, the notion that what women want is "a real man" (never mind that most men who have this idea are pathetic, weak ignoramuses who have a clue what a real man is).

The assumption that female protest is crazy, irrelevant and illegitimate.

The denial that there is a problem with any of the above.

Subscribing to or engaging with any one of those notions is subscribing to and engaging with rape culture. Obviously the more elements one subscribes to, the more entwined with such a culture one is.

Such a culture is perpetuated, amazingly enough, by males - primarily, but by no means exclusively, younger males, who don't know a lot about about the real world.

Such a culture is by no means exclusive to alt-right-minded people, but it is a culture which is synonymous with alt-right thinking - the idea of the pick up artist movement that women are effectively robots there to be manipulated and "won" like trophies, the notion that a woman's place is in the home, that women should not do certain jobs or play certain sports.

The weird thing is that I find there is a big crossover between self proclaimed "law and order" types and those who subscribe to at least some elements of rape culture. Victims of rape or tend not to be uppermost in such people's minds, nor does the admission that there might be a problem in how young men think about consent, nor is light sentencing for rapists. Yet rape is the second most serious crime there is, after murder.

Also, I think you'll find a great deal of crossover between men who subscribe to any or all elements of rape culture and those who oppose the repeal of the 8th Amendment - another tool of control for men over women.

[brokencrossbar1]

If any of you think that the messages in this WhatsApp group are not reflective of lots of other non-Ulster rugby type 'lads' groups then you're very blind and innocent. The advent of technology has allowed men to brag and boast about their adolescent, boorish sex lives the way most groups of young men did over the years but now with a bit more spontaneous interaction and unfortunately worse language. This doesn't mean they are all sexual predators. It means they are assholes. And this notion of privilege is nothing to do with Ulster rugby and everything to do with modern 'millennial ' thinking. Freedom of communication, freedom of travel, excess alcohol and drugs, reasonable amount of surplus cash, and a level of expectation in terms of what the world owes them has seen the behaviour of young adults, men and women, change dramatically. Guess what though folks, you and I have helped create this phenomenon. Society has created them and concepts like 'no losers' in sport and every kid getting a medal from a very early age has meant that there are lowering levels of boundaries. Kids get what they want at whatever age they are and as a result when they get to young adult stage they have high expectations and low levels of tolerance. I see it in my own kids and it's a daily battle particularly when there's two opposing forces trying to instill a level of controls.

The rugby players should not have 'morality' clauses in their contracts. There should be no need for them but there is because of the way the world turns now. Control is being subjugated at a very young age by parenting through technology and lack of controls. I don't think that this is the only reason and certainly I would not suggest that the likes of PJ was left in front of a tv screen. Probably the complete opposite but in a world where peers show scant regards for the others in the world then the influence is always there. Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Although clearly honestly held and well thought out, this post appears to be entirely based on the notion that human behaviour now is worse than in the past, and also that this can be attributed to expecting more for less. I believe those are fallacies.

I did state in my first few lines that their behaviour is no different to the sexual bragging that has gone on for years, just more immediate. As a father of a 19 year old I see their behaviour patterns and compare them to my own. I did most of what they did but the over indulgence in alcohol and drugs is on another level.

[AZOffaly]

If any of you think that the messages in this WhatsApp group are not reflective of lots of other non-Ulster rugby type 'lads' groups then you're very blind and innocent. The advent of technology has allowed men to brag and boast about their adolescent, boorish sex lives the way most groups of young men did over the years but now with a bit more spontaneous interaction and unfortunately worse language. This doesn't mean they are all sexual predators. It means they are assholes. And this notion of privilege is nothing to do with Ulster rugby and everything to do with modern 'millennial ' thinking. Freedom of communication, freedom of travel, excess alcohol and drugs, reasonable amount of surplus cash, and a level of expectation in terms of what the world owes them has seen the behaviour of young adults, men and women, change dramatically. Guess what though folks, you and I have helped create this phenomenon. Society has created them and concepts like 'no losers' in sport and every kid getting a medal from a very early age has meant that there are lowering levels of boundaries. Kids get what they want at whatever age they are and as a result when they get to young adult stage they have high expectations and low levels of tolerance. I see it in my own kids and it's a daily battle particularly when there's two opposing forces trying to instill a level of controls.

The rugby players should not have 'morality' clauses in their contracts. There should be no need for them but there is because of the way the world turns now. Control is being subjugated at a very young age by parenting through technology and lack of controls. I don't think that this is the only reason and certainly I would not suggest that the likes of PJ was left in front of a tv screen. Probably the complete opposite but in a world where peers show scant regards for the others in the world then the influence is always there. Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Although clearly honestly held and well thought out, this post appears to be entirely based on the notion that human behaviour now is worse than in the past, and also that this can be attributed to expecting more for less. I believe those are fallacies.

I did state in my first few lines that their behaviour is no different to the sexual bragging that has gone on for years, just more immediate. As a father of a 19 year old I see their behaviour patterns and compare them to my own. I did most of what they did but the over indulgence in alcohol and drugs is on another level.

That's money. Have 15-20 year olds ever had as much money to spend?

[brokencrossbar1]

If any of you think that the messages in this WhatsApp group are not reflective of lots of other non-Ulster rugby type 'lads' groups then you're very blind and innocent. The advent of technology has allowed men to brag and boast about their adolescent, boorish sex lives the way most groups of young men did over the years but now with a bit more spontaneous interaction and unfortunately worse language. This doesn't mean they are all sexual predators. It means they are assholes. And this notion of privilege is nothing to do with Ulster rugby and everything to do with modern 'millennial ' thinking. Freedom of communication, freedom of travel, excess alcohol and drugs, reasonable amount of surplus cash, and a level of expectation in terms of what the world owes them has seen the behaviour of young adults, men and women, change dramatically. Guess what though folks, you and I have helped create this phenomenon. Society has created them and concepts like 'no losers' in sport and every kid getting a medal from a very early age has meant that there are lowering levels of boundaries. Kids get what they want at whatever age they are and as a result when they get to young adult stage they have high expectations and low levels of tolerance. I see it in my own kids and it's a daily battle particularly when there's two opposing forces trying to instill a level of controls.

The rugby players should not have 'morality' clauses in their contracts. There should be no need for them but there is because of the way the world turns now. Control is being subjugated at a very young age by parenting through technology and lack of controls. I don't think that this is the only reason and certainly I would not suggest that the likes of PJ was left in front of a tv screen. Probably the complete opposite but in a world where peers show scant regards for the others in the world then the influence is always there. Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Although clearly honestly held and well thought out, this post appears to be entirely based on the notion that human behaviour now is worse than in the past, and also that this can be attributed to expecting more for less. I believe those are fallacies.

I did state in my first few lines that their behaviour is no different to the sexual bragging that has gone on for years, just more immediate. As a father of a 19 year old I see their behaviour patterns and compare them to my own. I did most of what they did but the over indulgence in alcohol and drugs is on another level.

That's money. Have 15-20 year olds ever had as much money to spend?

Completely agree. It's unreal. Most have part time jobs and also alcohol seems very cheap comparatively speaking.

[haranguerer]

If any of you think that the messages in this WhatsApp group are not reflective of lots of other non-Ulster rugby type 'lads' groups then you're very blind and innocent. The advent of technology has allowed men to brag and boast about their adolescent, boorish sex lives the way most groups of young men did over the years but now with a bit more spontaneous interaction and unfortunately worse language. This doesn't mean they are all sexual predators. It means they are assholes. And this notion of privilege is nothing to do with Ulster rugby and everything to do with modern 'millennial ' thinking. Freedom of communication, freedom of travel, excess alcohol and drugs, reasonable amount of surplus cash, and a level of expectation in terms of what the world owes them has seen the behaviour of young adults, men and women, change dramatically. Guess what though folks, you and I have helped create this phenomenon. Society has created them and concepts like 'no losers' in sport and every kid getting a medal from a very early age has meant that there are lowering levels of boundaries. Kids get what they want at whatever age they are and as a result when they get to young adult stage they have high expectations and low levels of tolerance. I see it in my own kids and it's a daily battle particularly when there's two opposing forces trying to instill a level of controls.

The rugby players should not have 'morality' clauses in their contracts. There should be no need for them but there is because of the way the world turns now. Control is being subjugated at a very young age by parenting through technology and lack of controls. I don't think that this is the only reason and certainly I would not suggest that the likes of PJ was left in front of a tv screen. Probably the complete opposite but in a world where peers show scant regards for the others in the world then the influence is always there. Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Although clearly honestly held and well thought out, this post appears to be entirely based on the notion that human behaviour now is worse than in the past, and also that this can be attributed to expecting more for less. I believe those are fallacies.

I did state in my first few lines that their behaviour is no different to the sexual bragging that has gone on for years, just more immediate. As a father of a 19 year old I see their behaviour patterns and compare them to my own. I did most of what they did but the over indulgence in alcohol and drugs is on another level.

I understand what you're saying, and I do think you're correctly identifying some trends which are likely to have a detrimental effect on behaviour, but it seems to me that you've over-reached by linking it to this. There also is potentially an element of seeking to link trends you're not comfortable or familiar with (medal for everyone) with negative behaviours, which may just be down to your bias against them.

Personally I think we generally behave a lot better toward each other now, and cases like this demonstrate that in a perverse way - in the past this wouldn't have been talked about, now its openly discussed, and very few don't agree their behaviour was horrendous. The focus on how women are treated, consent etc, can only be a good thing. Its a pity it took a case like this to further that cause, but its often the way.

[sid waddell]

The media.  If reporting restrictions are lifted, I expect her to be publicly named, and then some pieces about who she is, her background etc. Then the 'unnamed friend' sources with some gossipy stuff. This application should be rejected.

Complainants have lifelong anonymity under the law.

Frank O'Donoghue, Olding's QC, is to fight the application, so read into that what you will.

[screenexile]

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/application-to-lift-reporting-restrictions-on-belfast-rape-trial-to-be-heard-next-week-36773969.html

More mileage in this yet.

To what end? What restrictions were in place bar legal restrictions on naming the complainant?

It's what I said immediately after the trial. They're going to go after her, I'm sure of it. Especially with all the subsequent protests.

Who?

The media, as in fairness they dont give a shit about any of them

Given all the shite has went on around this I don't think it is a bad thing for the full facts to be requested, and I fail to see how doing so signifies the media going after her

I have a feeling this may be to do with other issues outside of the trial that were not related to the charges before the court. I suspect I know what it is about but without full knowledge I'm not putting it up here

Can you give us a "hypothetical" idea of the kinds of reporting restrictions these might be?

[magpie seanie]

Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Rape culture exists among a huge proportion of men.

I'd like to see any arguments for why people think it doesn't.

Genuine question - I've seen this 'rape culture' soundbyte used hundreds of times in the past few weeks.  What do you mean by this? How do you define it?

I think it's a poor use of terminology for what I believe it's meant to mean.

No one encourages of believes it's a good thing as AZ pointed out.

What I think the argument is against is a culture where rape and sexual violence towards women is not really understood or taken seriously. Where the benefit of the doubt is very much against the person making the complaint or the victim. Where pretty disgusting comments and text messages are shrugged off as "that's just what lads do".....it's just bravado, they don't really mean it etc.

There are important and serious discussions that need to take place regarding issues linked to this trial but I guess here isn't the time or place. Brushing it under the carpet and pretending things are grand is part of this culture that needs to change though.

[easytiger95]

The Second Captains did a really good episode dealing with all of these issues this week - it was members podcast but they have released it on the public feed, well worth listening to.

One thing I would say BCB1 doesn't mention in his post, but undoubtedly was mentioned on this thread before, is pornography. Whilst to a certain degree I would agree with haranguerer and AZ that there is nothing new under the sun, the easy availability of pornography is a game changer for human sexual relations.

Purely anecdotally, I think that we have seen a regression in behaviour with regard to sexism/misogyny since the rise of the internet and free porn, especially in young men. 

[magpie seanie]

The Second Captains did a really good episode dealing with all of these issues this week - it was members podcast but they have released it on the public feed, well worth listening to.

One thing I would say BCB1 doesn't mention in his post, but undoubtedly was mentioned on this thread before, is pornography. Whilst to a certain degree I would agree with haranguerer and AZ that there is nothing new under the sun, the easy availability of pornography is a game changer for human sexual relations.

Purely anecdotally, I think that we have seen a regression in behaviour with regard to sexism/misogyny since the rise of the internet and free porn, especially in young men.

Agree with all of that. I mentioned the podcast earlier. It was excellent.

[haranguerer]

Although that seems like an easy and logical link to make, I disagree with it completely. I think the move toward equality and respect has accelerated if anything.

I wouldn't dispute that easy access to porn can cause problems, but is it not likely to also alleviate some other problems? Are people in general not a lot more open about sex now, which should be a good thing?

[magpie seanie]

Although that seems like an easy and logical link to make, I disagree with it completely. I think the move toward equality and respect has accelerated if anything.

I wouldn't dispute that easy access to porn can cause problems, but is it not likely to also alleviate some other problems? Are people in general not a lot more open about sex now, which should be a good thing?

Doubt it has made any improvement in the area of consent.

[AZOffaly]

And expectations. I worry young people have normalised stuff that girls especially are not comfortable with, and if they don't conform to it, they are treated as if there's something wrong with them.

[Milltown Row2]

The media.  If reporting restrictions are lifted, I expect her to be publicly named, and then some pieces about who she is, her background etc. Then the 'unnamed friend' sources with some gossipy stuff. This application should be rejected.

Complainants have lifelong anonymity under the law.

Frank O'Donoghue, Olding's QC, is to fight the application, so read into that what you will.

He said he "did want to object" to the application by the media, but that he needed time to prepare his arguments.

He also said there was a need for "absolute clarity" on the effects on any orders.