The ulster rugby trial

[brokencrossbar1]

If any of you think that the messages in this WhatsApp group are not reflective of lots of other non-Ulster rugby type 'lads' groups then you're very blind and innocent. The advent of technology has allowed men to brag and boast about their adolescent, boorish sex lives the way most groups of young men did over the years but now with a bit more spontaneous interaction and unfortunately worse language. This doesn't mean they are all sexual predators. It means they are assholes. And this notion of privilege is nothing to do with Ulster rugby and everything to do with modern 'millennial ' thinking. Freedom of communication, freedom of travel, excess alcohol and drugs, reasonable amount of surplus cash, and a level of expectation in terms of what the world owes them has seen the behaviour of young adults, men and women, change dramatically. Guess what though folks, you and I have helped create this phenomenon. Society has created them and concepts like 'no losers' in sport and every kid getting a medal from a very early age has meant that there are lowering levels of boundaries. Kids get what they want at whatever age they are and as a result when they get to young adult stage they have high expectations and low levels of tolerance. I see it in my own kids and it's a daily battle particularly when there's two opposing forces trying to instill a level of controls.

The rugby players should not have 'morality' clauses in their contracts. There should be no need for them but there is because of the way the world turns now. Control is being subjugated at a very young age by parenting through technology and lack of controls. I don't think that this is the only reason and certainly I would not suggest that the likes of PJ was left in front of a tv screen. Probably the complete opposite but in a world where peers show scant regards for the others in the world then the influence is always there. Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Agree with a lot of what you say but the bit highlighted in bold is not something I can agree with it. Kids know when they lose or win, the concept is to promote fun ahead of just winning. Sport for children should never be about winning, yes as they get older (13+) introduce more competition but majority of kids leave sport because it's all about winning or it's too competitive or zero game time or pressure from parents and coaches to win, essentially they lose ownership of their own experience. It's not about dropping boundaries, it's about making boundaries realistic and more in tune to what children want not what adults think they want.  I just don't think you can equate sports bodies trying to increase participation levels at young ages with a sense of entitlement as they enter their late teens early 20s even as a contribution factor.

I found it an absolutely incredible leap to link encouragement of participation in sport in a less pressurised environment to predatory sexual behaviour.

Things have never been more pressurised for young people. Far from creating a society where there "no losers", young people these days grow up with more pressure on them than ever before. Greater pressure to get good exam results, greater pressure at work, greater pressure in terms of finding an affordable place to live, pressure to look good, pressure to conform.

It's only a short leap from that to claiming that the abolition of corporal punishment in schools is to blame for a predatory sexual culture.

A straight forward link that there is a growing sense of entitlement from a very young age. I have 2 sons and a daughter and I attend lots of sporting, musical and dance events with them and the levels of expectations are very high. I agree with you on that and the pressure is very high. However, as they get older there is a greater expectation from them that they get everything their way and if they don't then there are problems. I dispute that there is any more pressure on my son of 19 then there was on me at 19. I see it at first hand. I believe in fact we just had better coping mechanisms.

Also I dispute that there is a 'rape culture' , there is an unreal expectation culture in terms of what sex and sexual relations are and a lot of that has got to do with the free availability of porn and lack of education through the home and schools about this. Of you have evidence of the rape culture I'm happy to read it and be proven wrong.

[AZOffaly]

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/application-to-lift-reporting-restrictions-on-belfast-rape-trial-to-be-heard-next-week-36773969.html

More mileage in this yet.

To what end? What restrictions were in place bar legal restrictions on naming the complainant?

It's what I said immediately after the trial. They're going to go after her, I'm sure of it. Especially with all the subsequent protests.

[AZOffaly]

If any of you think that the messages in this WhatsApp group are not reflective of lots of other non-Ulster rugby type 'lads' groups then you're very blind and innocent. The advent of technology has allowed men to brag and boast about their adolescent, boorish sex lives the way most groups of young men did over the years but now with a bit more spontaneous interaction and unfortunately worse language. This doesn't mean they are all sexual predators. It means they are assholes. And this notion of privilege is nothing to do with Ulster rugby and everything to do with modern 'millennial ' thinking. Freedom of communication, freedom of travel, excess alcohol and drugs, reasonable amount of surplus cash, and a level of expectation in terms of what the world owes them has seen the behaviour of young adults, men and women, change dramatically. Guess what though folks, you and I have helped create this phenomenon. Society has created them and concepts like 'no losers' in sport and every kid getting a medal from a very early age has meant that there are lowering levels of boundaries. Kids get what they want at whatever age they are and as a result when they get to young adult stage they have high expectations and low levels of tolerance. I see it in my own kids and it's a daily battle particularly when there's two opposing forces trying to instill a level of controls.

The rugby players should not have 'morality' clauses in their contracts. There should be no need for them but there is because of the way the world turns now. Control is being subjugated at a very young age by parenting through technology and lack of controls. I don't think that this is the only reason and certainly I would not suggest that the likes of PJ was left in front of a tv screen. Probably the complete opposite but in a world where peers show scant regards for the others in the world then the influence is always there. Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Agree with a lot of what you say but the bit highlighted in bold is not something I can agree with it. Kids know when they lose or win, the concept is to promote fun ahead of just winning. Sport for children should never be about winning, yes as they get older (13+) introduce more competition but majority of kids leave sport because it's all about winning or it's too competitive or zero game time or pressure from parents and coaches to win, essentially they lose ownership of their own experience. It's not about dropping boundaries, it's about making boundaries realistic and more in tune to what children want not what adults think they want.  I just don't think you can equate sports bodies trying to increase participation levels at young ages with a sense of entitlement as they enter their late teens early 20s even as a contribution factor.

I found it an absolutely incredible leap to link encouragement of participation in sport in a less pressurised environment to predatory sexual behaviour.

Things have never been more pressurised for young people. Far from creating a society where there "no losers", young people these days grow up with more pressure on them than ever before. Greater pressure to get good exam results, greater pressure at work, greater pressure in terms of finding an affordable place to live, pressure to look good, pressure to conform.

It's only a short leap from that to claiming that the abolition of corporal punishment in schools is to blame for a predatory sexual culture.

A straight forward link that there is a growing sense of entitlement from a very young age. I have 2 sons and a daughter and I attend lots of sporting, musical and dance events with them and the levels of expectations are very high. I agree with you on that and the pressure is very high. However, as they get older there is a greater expectation from them that they get everything their way and if they don't then there are problems. I dispute that there is any more pressure on my son of 19 then there was on me at 19. I see it at first hand. I believe in fact we just had better coping mechanisms.

Also I dispute that there is a 'rape culture' , there is an unreal expectation culture in terms of what sex and sexual relations are and a lot of that has got to do with the free availability of porn and lack of education through the home and schools about this. Of you have evidence of the rape culture I'm happy to read it and be proven wrong.

I disagree that a very young child needs to be placed in an ultra competitive environment. There's nothing wrong with encouraging all of them, at young ages, and I think it's a stretch to say that that builds a sense of entitlement. Kids know whether they win or lose, and rewarding them for trying their best is a worthy exercise in and of itself.

Once a child reaches u12 or u14 at the latest, that changes anyway, and there's a lot of lessons then about the sad side of losing, so I wouldn't worry that we are creating a massive problem at that age. I agree that it's important to learn about winning, losing, the rewards you get when you put something into it, and the way to deal with unfairness or bad luck. But I don't think that has to be at 6,7,8,9 and 10. At that age it's about participation, enjoyment, trying your best.

[haranguerer]

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/application-to-lift-reporting-restrictions-on-belfast-rape-trial-to-be-heard-next-week-36773969.html

More mileage in this yet.

To what end? What restrictions were in place bar legal restrictions on naming the complainant?

It's what I said immediately after the trial. They're going to go after her, I'm sure of it. Especially with all the subsequent protests.

Who?

[Milltown Row2]

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/application-to-lift-reporting-restrictions-on-belfast-rape-trial-to-be-heard-next-week-36773969.html

More mileage in this yet.

To what end? What restrictions were in place bar legal restrictions on naming the complainant?

It's what I said immediately after the trial. They're going to go after her, I'm sure of it. Especially with all the subsequent protests.

Who?

The media, as in fairness they dont give a shit about any of them

[AZOffaly]

The media.  If reporting restrictions are lifted, I expect her to be publicly named, and then some pieces about who she is, her background etc. Then the 'unnamed friend' sources with some gossipy stuff. This application should be rejected.

[Dinny Breen]

If any of you think that the messages in this WhatsApp group are not reflective of lots of other non-Ulster rugby type 'lads' groups then you're very blind and innocent. The advent of technology has allowed men to brag and boast about their adolescent, boorish sex lives the way most groups of young men did over the years but now with a bit more spontaneous interaction and unfortunately worse language. This doesn't mean they are all sexual predators. It means they are assholes. And this notion of privilege is nothing to do with Ulster rugby and everything to do with modern 'millennial ' thinking. Freedom of communication, freedom of travel, excess alcohol and drugs, reasonable amount of surplus cash, and a level of expectation in terms of what the world owes them has seen the behaviour of young adults, men and women, change dramatically. Guess what though folks, you and I have helped create this phenomenon. Society has created them and concepts like 'no losers' in sport and every kid getting a medal from a very early age has meant that there are lowering levels of boundaries. Kids get what they want at whatever age they are and as a result when they get to young adult stage they have high expectations and low levels of tolerance. I see it in my own kids and it's a daily battle particularly when there's two opposing forces trying to instill a level of controls.

The rugby players should not have 'morality' clauses in their contracts. There should be no need for them but there is because of the way the world turns now. Control is being subjugated at a very young age by parenting through technology and lack of controls. I don't think that this is the only reason and certainly I would not suggest that the likes of PJ was left in front of a tv screen. Probably the complete opposite but in a world where peers show scant regards for the others in the world then the influence is always there. Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Agree with a lot of what you say but the bit highlighted in bold is not something I can agree with it. Kids know when they lose or win, the concept is to promote fun ahead of just winning. Sport for children should never be about winning, yes as they get older (13+) introduce more competition but majority of kids leave sport because it's all about winning or it's too competitive or zero game time or pressure from parents and coaches to win, essentially they lose ownership of their own experience. It's not about dropping boundaries, it's about making boundaries realistic and more in tune to what children want not what adults think they want.  I just don't think you can equate sports bodies trying to increase participation levels at young ages with a sense of entitlement as they enter their late teens early 20s even as a contribution factor.

More in a general societal sense Dinny, school sports day, everyone gets a medal, School's art competition, everyone is a winner, this is not a hard and fast rule but I have seen an awful lot of this type of attitude, particularly when I comes to underage coaching when a parent questions why their son is not getting on. I have a rule for the team I coach for when we attend blitz's. The players who are on the age all go before any younger lad, no matter how good some of the younger lads are. The younger lads rotate if needed and the same player never goes to 2 blitz's in a row out of the younger group no matter who they are or how good they are. My attitude is to improve the lads on the older group and the younger lads have another year to make that step. Some parents and fellow coaches have argued against this as I've left better young players at home over weaker older players but I stand by my approach. The parents now understand that they cannot demand and as a consequence the players understand better also. This means that no everyone's johnny gets a game but when they do get it they appreciate it.

Ah ok more context is always good. Don't disagree with that, I'm probably lucky in football we have close to 40 pure u7s and about 20 pure u7s in rugby so we have loads of teams that we try and ensure are all at the same level. We do have on kid (his Dad was a GAA superstar) left foot, right foot, all the skills, every boy wants to be on his team because they know they will win When I coach teenagers I do rotate players, always trying to build depth and competition and it has cost me at u14/u15 level in terms of results but it really rewards at the older u17/u18 levels in terms of winning cups. I am a narky fecker on the sideline so parents tend to be afraid of me, I like that perception. So when they get to 17 or 18 they know what it feels like to lose, they definitely appreciate it more.

[Tony Baloney]

If any of you think that the messages in this WhatsApp group are not reflective of lots of other non-Ulster rugby type 'lads' groups then you're very blind and innocent. The advent of technology has allowed men to brag and boast about their adolescent, boorish sex lives the way most groups of young men did over the years but now with a bit more spontaneous interaction and unfortunately worse language. This doesn't mean they are all sexual predators. It means they are assholes. And this notion of privilege is nothing to do with Ulster rugby and everything to do with modern 'millennial ' thinking. Freedom of communication, freedom of travel, excess alcohol and drugs, reasonable amount of surplus cash, and a level of expectation in terms of what the world owes them has seen the behaviour of young adults, men and women, change dramatically. Guess what though folks, you and I have helped create this phenomenon. Society has created them and concepts like 'no losers' in sport and every kid getting a medal from a very early age has meant that there are lowering levels of boundaries. Kids get what they want at whatever age they are and as a result when they get to young adult stage they have high expectations and low levels of tolerance. I see it in my own kids and it's a daily battle particularly when there's two opposing forces trying to instill a level of controls.

The rugby players should not have 'morality' clauses in their contracts. There should be no need for them but there is because of the way the world turns now. Control is being subjugated at a very young age by parenting through technology and lack of controls. I don't think that this is the only reason and certainly I would not suggest that the likes of PJ was left in front of a tv screen. Probably the complete opposite but in a world where peers show scant regards for the others in the world then the influence is always there. Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Agree with a lot of what you say but the bit highlighted in bold is not something I can agree with it. Kids know when they lose or win, the concept is to promote fun ahead of just winning. Sport for children should never be about winning, yes as they get older (13+) introduce more competition but majority of kids leave sport because it's all about winning or it's too competitive or zero game time or pressure from parents and coaches to win, essentially they lose ownership of their own experience. It's not about dropping boundaries, it's about making boundaries realistic and more in tune to what children want not what adults think they want.  I just don't think you can equate sports bodies trying to increase participation levels at young ages with a sense of entitlement as they enter their late teens early 20s even as a contribution factor.

I found it an absolutely incredible leap to link encouragement of participation in sport in a less pressurised environment to predatory sexual behaviour.

Things have never been more pressurised for young people. Far from creating a society where there "no losers", young people these days grow up with more pressure on them than ever before. Greater pressure to get good exam results, greater pressure at work, greater pressure in terms of finding an affordable place to live, pressure to look good, pressure to conform.

It's only a short leap from that to claiming that the abolition of corporal punishment in schools is to blame for a predatory sexual culture.

A straight forward link that there is a growing sense of entitlement from a very young age. I have 2 sons and a daughter and I attend lots of sporting, musical and dance events with them and the levels of expectations are very high. I agree with you on that and the pressure is very high. However, as they get older there is a greater expectation from them that they get everything their way and if they don't then there are problems. I dispute that there is any more pressure on my son of 19 then there was on me at 19. I see it at first hand. I believe in fact we just had better coping mechanisms.

Also I dispute that there is a 'rape culture' , there is an unreal expectation culture in terms of what sex and sexual relations are and a lot of that has got to do with the free availability of porn and lack of education through the home and schools about this. Of you have evidence of the rape culture I'm happy to read it and be proven wrong.

I disagree that a very young child needs to be placed in an ultra competitive environment. There's nothing wrong with encouraging all of them, at young ages, and I think it's a stretch to say that that builds a sense of entitlement. Kids know whether they win or lose, and rewarding them for trying their best is a worthy exercise in and of itself.

Once a child reaches u12 or u14 at the latest, that changes anyway, and there's a lot of lessons then about the sad side of losing, so I wouldn't worry that we are creating a massive problem at that age. I agree that it's important to learn about winning, losing, the rewards you get when you put something into it, and the way to deal with unfairness or bad luck. But I don't think that has to be at 6,7,8,9 and 10. At that age it's about participation, enjoyment, trying your best.

Youse are forgetting where BC1 is from

[haranguerer]

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/application-to-lift-reporting-restrictions-on-belfast-rape-trial-to-be-heard-next-week-36773969.html

More mileage in this yet.

To what end? What restrictions were in place bar legal restrictions on naming the complainant?

It's what I said immediately after the trial. They're going to go after her, I'm sure of it. Especially with all the subsequent protests.

Who?

The media, as in fairness they dont give a shit about any of them

Given all the shite has went on around this I don't think it is a bad thing for the full facts to be requested, and I fail to see how doing so signifies the media going after her

[Tony Baloney]

The media.  If reporting restrictions are lifted, I expect her to be publicly named, and then some pieces about who she is, her background etc. Then the 'unnamed friend' sources with some gossipy stuff. This application should be rejected.

They should all be allowed to get on with their lives. The have obviously seen there is plenty of traction on social media and want to make money whilst it's the current hot topic. Agree that it should be rejected - it's certainly not in anyone's interest in the short term (complainant and defendants) or long-term (if they go after her it may make it less likely for others to come forward) other than the meedja and those looking for salacious gossip.

[brokencrossbar1]

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/application-to-lift-reporting-restrictions-on-belfast-rape-trial-to-be-heard-next-week-36773969.html

More mileage in this yet.

To what end? What restrictions were in place bar legal restrictions on naming the complainant?

It's what I said immediately after the trial. They're going to go after her, I'm sure of it. Especially with all the subsequent protests.

Who?

The media, as in fairness they dont give a shit about any of them

Given all the shite has went on around this I don't think it is a bad thing for the full facts to be requested, and I fail to see how doing so signifies the media going after her

I have a feeling this may be to do with other issues outside of the trial that were not related to the charges before the court. I suspect I know what it is about but without full knowledge I'm not putting it up here

[AZOffaly]

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/application-to-lift-reporting-restrictions-on-belfast-rape-trial-to-be-heard-next-week-36773969.html

More mileage in this yet.

To what end? What restrictions were in place bar legal restrictions on naming the complainant?

It's what I said immediately after the trial. They're going to go after her, I'm sure of it. Especially with all the subsequent protests.

Who?

The media, as in fairness they dont give a shit about any of them

Given all the shite has went on around this I don't think it is a bad thing for the full facts to be requested, and I fail to see how doing so signifies the media going after her

I have a feeling this may be to do with other issues outside of the trial that were not related to the charges before the court. I suspect I know what it is about but without full knowledge I'm not putting it up here

That's my suspicion too.

[haranguerer]

If any of you think that the messages in this WhatsApp group are not reflective of lots of other non-Ulster rugby type 'lads' groups then you're very blind and innocent. The advent of technology has allowed men to brag and boast about their adolescent, boorish sex lives the way most groups of young men did over the years but now with a bit more spontaneous interaction and unfortunately worse language. This doesn't mean they are all sexual predators. It means they are assholes. And this notion of privilege is nothing to do with Ulster rugby and everything to do with modern 'millennial ' thinking. Freedom of communication, freedom of travel, excess alcohol and drugs, reasonable amount of surplus cash, and a level of expectation in terms of what the world owes them has seen the behaviour of young adults, men and women, change dramatically. Guess what though folks, you and I have helped create this phenomenon. Society has created them and concepts like 'no losers' in sport and every kid getting a medal from a very early age has meant that there are lowering levels of boundaries. Kids get what they want at whatever age they are and as a result when they get to young adult stage they have high expectations and low levels of tolerance. I see it in my own kids and it's a daily battle particularly when there's two opposing forces trying to instill a level of controls.

The rugby players should not have 'morality' clauses in their contracts. There should be no need for them but there is because of the way the world turns now. Control is being subjugated at a very young age by parenting through technology and lack of controls. I don't think that this is the only reason and certainly I would not suggest that the likes of PJ was left in front of a tv screen. Probably the complete opposite but in a world where peers show scant regards for the others in the world then the influence is always there. Jackson and the rest involved here are not reflective of a 'rape' culture. They are reflective of a culture where the levels of respect that people have for each other is diminishing day on day. This is actually reflected very candidly through this thread where people very quickly took diametrically opposed sides and didn't allow the case to develop and woe betide anyone who aopposed their views as they were ridiculed and belittled. This is the way of this board now, this is the way of the world now.

Although clearly honestly held and well thought out, this post appears to be entirely based on the notion that human behaviour now is worse than in the past, and also that this can be attributed to expecting more for less. I believe those are fallacies.

[Franko]

Application to lift reporting restrictions on Belfast rape trial to be heard next week
An application by various media outlets to lift reporting restrictions on the Belfast rape trial will come before the trial judge next Monday

Eimear Cotter

April 4 2018 11:24 AM


AN APPLICATION by various media outlets to lift reporting restrictions on the Belfast rape trial will come before the trial judge next Monday.

A preliminary application on the matter was made before the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland, Sir Declan Morgan, this morning.

Sir Morgan said the trial judge, Judge Patricia Smyth, was aware of the application and was available next week to consider it.

The Lord Chief Justice said he was aware of the argument that "news was perishable" and it was on that basis that the application would be dealt with expeditiously.

Last Wednesday, Irish and Ulster rugby stars Paddy Jackson (26) and Stuart Olding (25) were acquitted by a jury of eight men and three women of raping a then 19-year-old student at Jackson's home in June 2016.

Mr Jackson was also cleared of a charge of sexually assaulting the same women.

Both men had also said that the sexual activity was consensual.

Their friends Blane McIlroy (26) was cleared of exposure and Rory Harrison (25) was found not guilty of perverting the course of justice and withholding information. They too had also denied the charges.

The jury returned their verdict after three hours and 45 minutes of deliberations.

This morning, an application came before the High Court to lift reporting restrictions which were imposed during the course of the trial.

Sir Morgan said he was sitting in his capacity as a Crown Court judge. He said he was "not making any determination" on the application, and that it should properly be argued before the original trial judge, Judge Smyth.

He said Judge Smyth was available to hear the application on Monday.

Frank O'Donoghue QC, who represented Stuart Olding during the nine-week trial, said the application was originally due to be heard at the end of April.

Mr O'Donoghue said there were "real practical difficulties" with the application proceeding on Monday, as a number of the lawyers were out of the country.

He said he "did want to object" to the application by the media, but that he needed time to prepare his arguments.

He also said there was a need for "absolute clarity" on the effects on any orders.

Gerry Simpson QC, for the press, said he was conscious the application had come at an unusual time.

"It's now a week since the trial ended. It will be another week before this application is heard. I'm keen to keep pressing on with it", he said.

The Lord Chief Justice said he believed that "skeleton arguments" should be ready by the end of the week and he adjourned the application to Judge Smyth on Monday.


https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/application-to-lift-reporting-restrictions-on-belfast-rape-trial-to-be-heard-next-week-36773969.html


This is the article.  The accused's right to anonymity was not something that was established during this trial and I don't think these applications would be concerned with that. She won't be named but the bit in bold tells me it's to do with other issues (those that BCB has alluded to).

[haranguerer]

The media.  If reporting restrictions are lifted, I expect her to be publicly named, and then some pieces about who she is, her background etc. Then the 'unnamed friend' sources with some gossipy stuff. This application should be rejected.

They should all be allowed to get on with their lives. The have obviously seen there is plenty of traction on social media and want to make money whilst it's the current hot topic. Agree that it should be rejected - it's certainly not in anyone's interest in the short term (complainant and defendants) or long-term (if they go after her it may make it less likely for others to come forward) other than the meedja and those looking for salacious gossip.

'They should all be allowed to get on with their lives'...Currently this is far from the case for the defendants - there may well be further relevant facts which would allow those involved to get on with their lives. Full disclosure is to be welcomed, especially given the trial by twitter.