The ulster rugby trial

[Christmas Lights]

So after 200 odd pages what are the lessons to be learned from this sorry episode?

[Milltown Row2]

How many people are innocent that go to court? At this rate there will be protests at every court!

[Tony Baloney]

I should add that if the jury didn't believe the complainant it doesn't follow at all that they believed Jackson at all.

For me the following could have occurred.

Believe complainant 100% and don't believe Jackson et al = conviction for all
Believe complainant 100% but believe Jackson and Olding about their reasonable belief in consent then only McIlroy convicted.
Don't believe complainant sufficiently and don't believe Jackson et al =acquittal
Don't believe complainant sufficiently  and do believe Jackson et al  = acquittal

If she didn't expressly not give consent then is it not possible that you can believe both her and Jackson. She froze as said nothing as she believed she was under duress whereas he took the lack of dissent as consent.

[Tony Baloney]

https://twitter.com/KevDoyle_Indo/status/979688678032314368

The irony of this is that she is probably 'more' upper middle class then all of them with far more 'connections '. This class thing is such a pile of crap!!!

No word of the class breakdown of the jurors either. They'll be next for a witch hunt.

[brokencrossbar1]

I should add that if the jury didn't believe the complainant it doesn't follow at all that they believed Jackson at all.

For me the following could have occurred.

Believe complainant 100% and don't believe Jackson et al = conviction for all
Believe complainant 100% but believe Jackson and Olding about their reasonable belief in consent then only McIlroy convicted.
Don't believe complainant sufficiently and don't believe Jackson et al =acquittal
Don't believe complainant sufficiently  and do believe Jackson et al  = acquittal

If she didn't expressly not give consent then is it not possible that you can believe both her and Jackson. She froze as said nothing as she believed she was under duress whereas he took the lack of dissent as consent.

The fact that the jury found Jackson NG of sexual assault and McIlroy NG of exposure would strongly suggest that ther was a strong belief that she consented. The McIlroy charge does not need consent and the physical act of the sexual assault was admitted. If there was no consent then they had to find PJ guilty of sexual assault, simple as that.

[David McKeown]

Unless of course they felt he had a reasonable belief in consent

[brokencrossbar1]

Unless of course they felt he had a reasonable belief in consent

True

[Milltown Row2]

Lads take a break! You two haven't been paid a dime for all this! And you've been trying to defend your practice and continually being questioned!

[David McKeown]

Lads take a break! You two haven't been paid a dime for all this! And you've been trying to defend your practice and continually being questioned!

True but I've been off sick or injured for a while so I'm stuck in bed with little better to do

[Jim Bob]

Got fed up with this trial about a week ago. Switched over whenever it came on news. Heard the verdict and that's about all I wanted to hear of it. Appears to be still dominating the new though

[brokencrossbar1]

Lads take a break! You two haven't been paid a dime for all this! And you've been trying to defend your practice and continually being questioned!

And I'm just an argumentative cvunt!!!

[Syferus]

God love the poor craythurs.

Seanie, don't be like Syf. But that's not what I meant anyway. I meant they'll be getting offers of money etc. to go off the record.

Do t be like me? What the fück?

AZ, you were the one who came into this thread thinking if it was rape the woman would be shouting and screaming and acting like an MMA fighter, it's more than a bit rich that you'd try to tee off on me.

[Hardy]

It is poor judgement, but again I ask, who exactly were those rallies aiming their anger at? None of them heard all the evidence. The jury did, their decision must be respected.

Not having been at any or indeed seen much coverage of them I can't say for certain but I think anyone with any level of cop on can see that for the vast majority it's at the legal system and the way these types of trials are conducted. Others are just angry and need to vent or lash out. Lots of women may have been through something similar or know someone who went though something similar. Only 7.5% of reported cases result in convictions......either we've a massive number of liars out there or the system is grossly unfit for purpose.

I can see how the anger is legitimate and this high profile case has proved to be a lightening rod for an underlying issue that's there a long time.

MS I'm not suggesting you are wrong but I saw the 7.5% claim in a recent article, I also saw a figure of 6% and 60% in other articles. Does anyone actually know what the correct statistic is and how it compares to other types of criminal complaint?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/ourview/rape-conviction-rate-offers-no-protection-276761.html

"During 2013, the Central Criminal Court dealt with a total of 567 rape cases.

Seventy-three of the accused pleaded guilty, thereby saving the court valuable time, for which they would have received reduced sentences. Of the others charged before the court, 205 defendants were sent to trial. Those trials ended with 35 convictions, and 155 acquittals. In 15 instances, the jury was unable to agree on a verdict.

One way of interpreting those figures would be that the jury convicted fractionally over 17% of those tried for rape and acquitted 76.6%."

A surprising statistic to me is that 26% of those accused of rape pleaded guilty.

[Syferus]

I have to say I am still conflicted by both sides of this episode. That said proving something beyond all reasonable doubt is difficult. You can not find someone guilty on a balance of probabilities. In terms of behaviour I am appalled at they way these guys got on, but they weren't on trial for appalling behaviour, they were on trial for rape and sexual assault. If the jury did not accept that this girl had with held contempt, 3 1/2 hours is plenty of time to reach a conclusion. It has been said already that there are no winners here. The rallies may be well meaning but they are unfair and in my opinion do a disservice to those contemplating reporting a rape.

I really cannot fathom how the protests do a disservice to the people reporting a rape. That is an incredible stance to take.

[AZOffaly]

God love the poor craythurs.

Seanie, don't be like Syf. But that's not what I meant anyway. I meant they'll be getting offers of money etc. to go off the record.

Do t be like me? What the fück?

AZ, you were the one who came into this thread thinking if it was rape the woman would be shouting and screaming and acting like an MMA fighter, it's more than a bit rich that you'd try to tee off on me.

I'm slagging. Relax. You're a narky fecker.

'Tee off on me'