The ulster rugby trial

[HiMucker]

Lord Chief Justice Syferus has already called it. No point in putting a poll up.

I can just hear the posts being typed if they are convicted... 

" a lot of people on here are beginning to look very foolish"

"It's good to see the courts are morally stronger than some posters on here...."

" Oh dear, some peoples posts haven't aged well at all...."

I would say you'd be correct, and any comments of this nature would be grossly unfair, given the difficulty of this case and how it has split opinion.  However there has been some comments on this thread, regardless of guilt or innocence that have been akin to the old "sure she was wearing a short skirt..." and worse.  It is only right that they be challenged and that shouldn't be confused with "hang them at dawn".

Show a post we're a poster said "sure she was wearing a skirt"  and besides I think she was wearing trousers

I said akin to.  If you don't think there was any inappropriate, sexist and embarrassing comments, that's fine.  Knock yourself out, I'm hardly going to change your views, but to me and I'm sure many others it's obvious.

[Milltown Row2]

Lord Chief Justice Syferus has already called it. No point in putting a poll up.

I can just hear the posts being typed if they are convicted... 

" a lot of people on here are beginning to look very foolish"

"It's good to see the courts are morally stronger than some posters on here...."

" Oh dear, some peoples posts haven't aged well at all...."

I would say you'd be correct, and any comments of this nature would be grossly unfair, given the difficulty of this case and how it has split opinion.  However there has been some comments on this thread, regardless of guilt or innocence that have been akin to the old "sure she was wearing a short skirt..." and worse.  It is only right that they be challenged and that shouldn't be confused with "hang them at dawn".

Show a post we're a poster said "sure she was wearing a skirt"  and besides I think she was wearing trousers

I said akin to.  If you don't think there was any inappropriate, sexist and embarrassing comments, that's fine.  Knock yourself out, I'm hardly going to change your views, but to me and I'm sure many others it's obvious.

If you think there are people on the thread that are apolgists for rape by saying sexist jokes/remarks then you knock yourself out, in fairness there hasnt been but that wont stop you or others looking for them

[gallsman]

Orior called her a stupid girl for going back to the house and into the bedroom.

If that isn't a "sure she brought it in herself" comment I'm not sure what is. Care to comment, MR2?

[Milltown Row2]

Orior called her a stupid girl for going back to the house and into the bedroom.

If that isn't a "sure she brought it in herself" comment I'm not sure what is. Care to comment, MR2?

If my daughter went back to a house on her own without her friends after drink taken I'd call her stupid...

Calling a girl stupid and saying she was asking for it is completley different, your intelligent enough to know the difference?

[Asal Mor]

If you had an 18/19 year old daughter, would you not warn her about the dangers of drinking too much and ending up in a house full of strangers?

[Milltown Row2]

If you had an 18/19 year old daughter, would you not warn her about the dangers of drinking too much and ending up in a house full of strangers?

You give them advice, you explain the dangers, you make them aware, and you hope they are sensible enough to know when to make excuses and leave... that in no way means that they will listen, or if its completely out of their hands, hope that they are not hurt or damaged mentally from a situation like the one we are talking about.

They are young adults that for most parts don't listen to you anyways (well they say that) they think you're old and wouldnt have a clue, thats kids for ya, but the basics hopefully have been set in for years with them and hopefully they will get through life with the minimum of fuss..

If they did find themselves in the position of this thread then we as a family would have to look at it, warts and all and make the right call..

[AQMP]

If you had an 18/19 year old daughter, would you not warn her about the dangers of drinking too much and ending up in a house full of strangers?

Yes, but if she ended up being spit roasted against her will I probably wouldn't blame her for it.  Call me old fashioned if you like.

[Keyser soze]

Orior called her a stupid girl for going back to the house and into the bedroom.

If that isn't a "sure she brought it in herself" comment I'm not sure what is. Care to comment, MR2?

I think you will find that it was the girl herself who first used the words 'stupid girl' in relation to her actions, at least according to the front page of the following day's Newsletter

[gallsman]

Orior called her a stupid girl for going back to the house and into the bedroom.

If that isn't a "sure she brought it in herself" comment I'm not sure what is. Care to comment, MR2?

I think you will find that it was the girl herself who first used the words 'stupid girl' in relation to her actions, at least according to the front page of the following day's Newsletter

I think you'll fin that that's got absolutely nothing to do with someone on here calling her a stupid girl?

If the girl was raped (note the "if" there), it was not because she was a stupid girl who decided to go to a house party rather than heading off home. It's because the lads are rapists. There is nothing more to it than that and anyone who can't see or understand that needs some serious f**king help.

[Asal Mor]

Of course they might not listen anyway. My only point was that drinking too much and ending up in a house full of strangers isn't a good idea and the dangers are greater for a girl. I know it's so obvious that I shouldn't bother making it but I was honestly unsure whether some people accepted that simple truth from their reactions to it being brought up on this thread.

[HiMucker]

In terms of a cover up here is an excerpt from Gavan Duffy now speaking for Harrison and it's been mybview the whole time

'In relation to the prosecution's theory that a story was cooked up between the four defendants at Soul Food café, Mr. Duffy QC asks why would two Ulster rugby players have gone to the busiest and smallest café on Ormeau Rd to do so?'

If I was trying to cover something up I'd have met in the privacy of my own house and sorted it out there, not in the middle of the bloody Orneau Road!!!

I would say that I have agreed with nearly everything you have posted on this topic, and bow to your obvious superior knowledge of the legal system.  However, though it may be most unlikely that they met there the next day to orchestrate a cover up, I find it absolutely unbelievable that they didn't discuss any furore surrounding the incident involving the young women.
Do you believe the accused that this was not discussed?  Do you believe that Harrison never mentioned to them about what she text them?  Whatever about guilt or innocence I would find that implausible, in my opinion of course.

I would say it was discussed but it's not the kinda place that you're going to get much privacy to have an in-depth conversation. I've never been in it but looked at some sphoyos there and it's a pretty open plan area where they wouldn't have had much privacy. The key to it is that Gavan Duffy raises the question in the jurors heads, creates doubts, builds up a picture. Did they discuss the previous night?  Yes I've no doubt they did but they could have been discussing it in a happy manner just as easily as a conspiratorial one. Harrison says what she said and they reply that's a load of bollix as she was fully into it. If they were conspiring you would have thought that they'd have got all their stories the same at least!

yes, I have no doubt that is the case.  But is the other side of that not true?  That if the prosecution raises the question in jurors heads, that if they are surely lying about not talking about it, then what else could they be lying about? 

[gallsman]

Of course they might not listen anyway. My only point was that drinking too much and ending up in a house full of strangers isn't a good idea and the dangers are greater for a girl. I know it's so obvious that I shouldn't bother making it but I was honestly unsure whether some people accepted that simple truth from their reactions to it being brought up on this thread.

Why? She was out for the night, made the acquaintance of some people, appeared to show an interest in one of them. Why is going back to the house a bad idea? She was a grown woman, capable of making her own choices.

Or perhaps you think woman should live their lives fearing the presence of rapists around every corner

[gallsman]

In terms of a cover up here is an excerpt from Gavan Duffy now speaking for Harrison and it's been mybview the whole time

'In relation to the prosecution's theory that a story was cooked up between the four defendants at Soul Food café, Mr. Duffy QC asks why would two Ulster rugby players have gone to the busiest and smallest café on Ormeau Rd to do so?'

If I was trying to cover something up I'd have met in the privacy of my own house and sorted it out there, not in the middle of the bloody Orneau Road!!!

I would say that I have agreed with nearly everything you have posted on this topic, and bow to your obvious superior knowledge of the legal system.  However, though it may be most unlikely that they met there the next day to orchestrate a cover up, I find it absolutely unbelievable that they didn't discuss any furore surrounding the incident involving the young women.
Do you believe the accused that this was not discussed?  Do you believe that Harrison never mentioned to them about what she text them?  Whatever about guilt or innocence I would find that implausible, in my opinion of course.

I would say it was discussed but it's not the kinda place that you're going to get much privacy to have an in-depth conversation. I've never been in it but looked at some sphoyos there and it's a pretty open plan area where they wouldn't have had much privacy. The key to it is that Gavan Duffy raises the question in the jurors heads, creates doubts, builds up a picture. Did they discuss the previous night?  Yes I've no doubt they did but they could have been discussing it in a happy manner just as easily as a conspiratorial one. Harrison says what she said and they reply that's a load of bollix as she was fully into it. If they were conspiring you would have thought that they'd have got all their stories the same at least!

yes, I have no doubt that is the case.  But is the other side of that not true?  That if the prosecution raises the question in jurors heads, that if they are surely lying about not talking about it, then what else could they be lying about?

It is, but the burden of proof lies with the prosecution - they have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. The defense does not have to prove the innocence of their client, merely convince the jury that proof beyond reasonable doubt has not been achieved.

[AZOffaly]

I do get the point that you need not put yourself in dodgy situations, *however* this was a house party in a nice area with a couple of well known sports stars. She wasn't exactly walking down the Falls singing the Sash and throwing petrol bombs at the houses.

My instinct on this is that the girl was attracted to Jackson, probably went with him, but at some point began to get uncomfortable and things, or the lads, were too far gone to row back. I don't believe this will translate into a guilty verdict.

[Asal Mor]

Of course they might not listen anyway. My only point was that drinking too much and ending up in a house full of strangers isn't a good idea and the dangers are greater for a girl. I know it's so obvious that I shouldn't bother making it but I was honestly unsure whether some people accepted that simple truth from their reactions to it being brought up on this thread.

Why? She was out for the night, made the acquaintance of some people, appeared to show an interest in one of them. Why is going back to the house a bad idea? She was a grown woman, capable of making her own choices.

Or perhaps you think woman should live their lives fearing the presence of rapists around every corner

As a father, I'm just being realistic about the dangers. If PJ seemed nice then later raped her, as per her version of events, then I suppose you're right but I'd still be warning my daughter against it.