The ulster rugby trial

[seafoid]

Even if it were proven that Jackson did have penetrative sex with her, that wouldn't necessarily make it rape. There's still imo too much inconsistency in the girl's story and too much sloppiness on the part of the PSNI to convict Jackson or Olding beyond a reasonable doubt. Harrison and Mcillroy could end up being the ones who get convicted, despite their relatively minor roles in the whole thing.

Trauma would explain the inconsistencies.
I think Jacko and Olding will be convicted.

[Asal Mor]

Even if it were proven that Jackson did have penetrative sex with her, that wouldn't necessarily make it rape. There's still imo too much inconsistency in the girl's story and too much sloppiness on the part of the PSNI to convict Jackson or Olding beyond a reasonable doubt. Harrison and Mcillroy could end up being the ones who get convicted, despite their relatively minor roles in the whole thing.

Trauma would explain the inconsistencies.
I think Jacko and Olding will be convicted.

You're giving the girl all the benefit of the doubt seaf. Contradictions in her story are inconsistencies or omissions due to trauma. Contradictions in the men's stories are lies.

Will the jurors not be instructed to presume innocence as a starting point? You're assuming guilt by putting her inconsistencies down to trauma.

[seafoid]

Even if it were proven that Jackson did have penetrative sex with her, that wouldn't necessarily make it rape. There's still imo too much inconsistency in the girl's story and too much sloppiness on the part of the PSNI to convict Jackson or Olding beyond a reasonable doubt. Harrison and Mcillroy could end up being the ones who get convicted, despite their relatively minor roles in the whole thing.

Trauma would explain the inconsistencies.
I think Jacko and Olding will be convicted.

You're giving the girl all the benefit of the doubt seaf. Contradictions in her story are inconsistencies or omissions due to trauma. Contradictions in the men's stories are lies.

Will the jurors not be instructed to presume innocence as a starting point? You're assuming guilt by putting her inconsistencies down to trauma.

She left the house in a state. The tear in her vagina was not explained by the lads. I do think they are lying

It reminds me of a joke by Lenny Bruce

Why did the Jews kill Jesus?
Oh, it was just a party that got out of hand.

And another one

You put a guy on a desert island, he'll do it to mud, a chicken, a barrel, anything, a knothole.

[Asal Mor]

In a case of consent followed by feelings of humiliation, regret and anger she'd have left the house in a state. She could have sustained the tear in that situation too. I'm not seeing anything about this case that doesn't come with a reasonable doubt.

[David McKeown]

Was there any medical evidence called by the prosecution to say trauma can cause memory loss or explain inconsistencies. I would have expected there to have been some but I don't remember reading any reports about it but then again I may have just missed that.

[Avondhu star]

Was there any medical evidence called by the prosecution to say trauma can cause memory loss or explain inconsistencies. I would have expected there to have been some but I don't remember reading any reports about it but then again I may have just missed that.

You are correct there. You just  can't claim trauma shock etc as reasons for not responding to a rape without a professional providing a medical report.
There seems to be a lot of discrepancies in the P.S.N.I. investigation. You don't accept as truth something an alleged victim says. You only accept it when there is evidence to support it

[David McKeown]

Sorry I wasn't implying anything by the question I just would have expected to see such evidence but haven't although I'm not sure if that's because none has be given or I've just missed the reports.

[macdanger2]

If I were a juror, there's a couple of questions I'd like to see answered from a defence point of view (currently I'm leaning towards being guilty but not necessarily being found guilty)

How come two lads of this age didn't have condoms to hand?  (correct me of I'm wrong but I think two defendants left 'to get condoms')

Why did Harrison accompany the girl home?

[seafoid]

This is not ideal for the defendants

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/belfast-rape-trial-gains-insight-into-accuseds-mindset-1.3413426

The eight men and three woman (one juror was dismissed on Tuesday due to illness) heard WhatsApp exchanges between the accused in which they boasted and joked about their sexual activities. They also heard transcripts of the men describing to police, in measured and polite tones, their versions of what happened that night.

On Wednesday, prosecuting counsel Toby Hedworth QC spent about 90 minutes reading a list of text exchanges to the jury with the agreement of the defence lawyers. He also reminded the jury some of the texts had been deleted and later recovered.

Others remain irretrievable, meaning some of the conversations appear fragmented or out of order.

The jury has heard Harrison dropped the woman home in a taxi in the early hours of the morning after the alleged rape.

Later McIlroy texted Harrison asking: "What the f**k was going on? Last night was hilarious."

The reply from Harrison was deleted and not recovered but McIlroy replied: "really f**k sake" and "did you calm her and where did she live".

[Avondhu star]

Has Paddy Power opened a book on the verdict yet?

[Square Ball]

https://www.joe.ie/amp/life-style/anatomy-of-a-night-out-read-the-whatsapp-and-text-messages-sent-by-jackson-olding-mciiroy-harrison-and-others-as-heard-by-the-jury-618032?__twitter_impression=true

[Mikhail Prokhorov]

how can there be missing messages? these are easily recoverable from both the phone and whatsapp. PSNI are so incompetent.

[David McKeown]

how can there be missing messages? these are easily recoverable from both the phone and whatsapp. PSNI are so incompetent.

They aren't recoverable from WhatsApp as far as I know and I doubt that the recovery of them from the phone would be admissible in court. To be honest I've had a lot of experience with the PSNI e crime unit in both my current job and my previous one. The unit is now very knowledgeable and tech savy I have to say.

[armaghniac]

how can there be missing messages? these are easily recoverable from both the phone and whatsapp. PSNI are so incompetent.

They aren't recoverable from WhatsApp as far as I know and I doubt that the recovery of them from the phone would be admissible in court. To be honest I've had a lot of experience with the PSNI e crime unit in both my current job and my previous one. The unit is now very knowledgeable and tech savy I have to say.

Graham Dwyer was largely prosecuted in Dublin for killing Elaine O'Hara on the basis of text messages. The providers are obliged to keep the messages, even if there was no phone available at all.

[Mikhail Prokhorov]

how can there be missing messages? these are easily recoverable from both the phone and whatsapp. PSNI are so incompetent.

They aren't recoverable from WhatsApp as far as I know and I doubt that the recovery of them from the phone would be admissible in court. To be honest I've had a lot of experience with the PSNI e crime unit in both my current job and my previous one. The unit is now very knowledgeable and tech savy I have to say.

Graham Dwyer was largely prosecuted in Dublin for killing Elaine O'Hara on the basis of text messages. The providers are obliged to keep the messages, even if there was no phone available at all.

correct. online footprint is forever, it's not written in pencil.