The ulster rugby trial

[Orior]

I wonder if the "why would/wouldn't she say that" crowd are asking themselves the same questions about the activities of some of the lads - deleting messages, talking about spit roasts etc when they all claim not to have had sex with her etc

You're assuming that 'crowd' think she is guilty, when they are simply posing a question.

[Syferus]

I wonder if the "why would/wouldn't she say that" crowd are asking themselves the same questions about the activities of some of the lads - deleting messages, talking about spit roasts etc when they all claim not to have had sex with her etc

Nah. Only used as window dressing so as to give an impression of impartiality as they get the digs in at the woman. It comes from the same dirty place that the alt-right movement in the US comes from - a hatred of equality and progressive values. The idea that they are simply "asking questions", as Orior unhelpfully suggested, conveniently ignores how loaded and how one-sided those questions are.

Anyone wondering why most rapes go unreported, let alone unprosecuted, need look no further than this thread.

[Milltown Row2]

I wonder if the "why would/wouldn't she say that" crowd are asking themselves the same questions about the activities of some of the lads - deleting messages, talking about spit roasts etc when they all claim not to have had sex with her etc

Nah. Only used as window dressing so as to give an impression of impartiality as they get the digs in at the woman. It comes from the same dirty place that the alt-right movement in the US comes from - a hatred of equality and progressive values.

Anyone wondering why most rapes go unreported, let alone unprosecuted, need look no further than this thread.

Sure when you finish your law degree you can be the crusader!

[gallsman]

I wonder if the "why would/wouldn't she say that" crowd are asking themselves the same questions about the activities of some of the lads - deleting messages, talking about spit roasts etc when they all claim not to have had sex with her etc

Bragging? Kids do that a lot.

Then they've shit themselves once it became obvious that they were going to be charged! Surely they would have constructed a better lie if they had have done something. They are all over the show with those statements...

Too many ifs buts and maybes for me..

So what, the jock rugby players who could likely get girls as and when they wanted were lying about spit roasting to look cool in front of their friends precisely when a witness saw some spit roasting going on?

Pull the other one ffs.

[Frank_The_Tank]

After the first few weeks I was swaying towards innocent given the perceived holes/inconsistencies/uncertainties in the IP story and teh evidence of speacialists etc.

After the boys evidence Im not so sure now.

The beyond all doubt is the key here as someone has said.

They may well be guilty but are they guilty beyond all doubt? There are still doubts in my mind given my limited knowledge of the case.

All of the lives have been ravaged by this case irrespective of the outcome and in reality when there verdict is read out there are no real winners.

The woman is a fûcking hero if she helps convict two rapists.

She's a winner in my eyes either way for having the balls to bring this to trial irrespective of the verdict. Far too many women are cowed into silence after experiences like this.

After what experience?

She has said she was raped. The boys have said she wasnt.

Question (which I doubt you will answer).....if you slept with a woman and you believed all was fair, she said you raped her and you were found innocent - would you say she was a hero?

Any chance Syf?

I see you still haven't got your answer Taylor?  Bit like when he was spouting some nonsense the other day about the jury after one member was discharged and then proceeded to ignore any further post when call out on it

[Ethan Tremblay]

If they say they were only bragging/lying on the whatts app message they will be wiped out in court, prosecution will most likely say how do we know you are not lying now?

The inconsistencies of their stories is unreal and its swaying me to believe they are guilty. 

[brokencrossbar1]

I believe they had non consensual sexual acts with her but i don't know if the evidence is strong enough to convict. A lot on inconsistency in all the stories. All it needs is a strong dissenter in the jury to sway it

[Milltown Row2]

I wonder if the "why would/wouldn't she say that" crowd are asking themselves the same questions about the activities of some of the lads - deleting messages, talking about spit roasts etc when they all claim not to have had sex with her etc

Bragging? Kids do that a lot.

Then they've shit themselves once it became obvious that they were going to be charged! Surely they would have constructed a better lie if they had have done something. They are all over the show with those statements...

Too many ifs buts and maybes for me..

So what, the jock rugby players who could likely get girls as and when they wanted were lying about spit roasting to look cool in front of their friends precisely when a witness saw some spit roasting going on?

Pull the other one ffs.

Everyone is guessing, as are you.. Olding it seems was the only one that got off.. the others were,  it seems fumbling around..

So you think that rapists generally WhatsApp each other after a rape? There are s lot of things that don't add up on both sides, I couldn't and can't decide on this..

I know plenty guys when I was out back in the day that would have been very successful with the girls every weekend and talking about it would have been the norm. And it would have been the norm to exaggerate some stories too, especially when they have had a few

[Syferus]

I wonder if the "why would/wouldn't she say that" crowd are asking themselves the same questions about the activities of some of the lads - deleting messages, talking about spit roasts etc when they all claim not to have had sex with her etc

Bragging? Kids do that a lot.

Then they've shit themselves once it became obvious that they were going to be charged! Surely they would have constructed a better lie if they had have done something. They are all over the show with those statements...

Too many ifs buts and maybes for me..

So what, the jock rugby players who could likely get girls as and when they wanted were lying about spit roasting to look cool in front of their friends precisely when a witness saw some spit roasting going on?

Pull the other one ffs.

Everyone is guessing, as are you.. Olding it seems was the only one that got off.. the others were,  it seems fumbling around..

So you think that rapists generally WhatsApp each other after a rape? There are s lot of things that don't add up on both sides, I couldn't and can't decide on this..

I know plenty guys when I was out back in the day that would have been very successful with the girls every weekend and talking about it would have been the norm. And it would have been the norm to exaggerate some stories too, especially when they have had a few

Have you reached Sydney with that hole you've dug yourself yet?

[Milltown Row2]

Roscommon just, bit of a daft place with lots of people claiming to be experts in British legal systems

[screenexile]

After the first few weeks I was swaying towards innocent given the perceived holes/inconsistencies/uncertainties in the IP story and teh evidence of speacialists etc.

After the boys evidence Im not so sure now.

The beyond all doubt is the key here as someone has said.

They may well be guilty but are they guilty beyond all doubt? There are still doubts in my mind given my limited knowledge of the case.

All of the lives have been ravaged by this case irrespective of the outcome and in reality when there verdict is read out there are no real winners.

The woman is a fûcking hero if she helps convict two rapists.

She's a winner in my eyes either way for having the balls to bring this to trial irrespective of the verdict. Far too many women are cowed into silence after experiences like this.

After what experience?

She has said she was raped. The boys have said she wasnt.

Question (which I doubt you will answer).....if you slept with a woman and you believed all was fair, she said you raped her and you were found innocent - would you say she was a hero?

You were asked a very simple yes or no question Syf... any word of an answer??

[Main Street]

After the first few weeks I was swaying towards innocent given the perceived holes/inconsistencies/uncertainties in the IP story and teh evidence of speacialists etc.

After the boys evidence Im not so sure now.

The beyond all doubt is the key here as someone has said.

They may well be guilty but are they guilty beyond all doubt? There are still doubts in my mind given my limited knowledge of the case.

All of the lives have been ravaged by this case irrespective of the outcome and in reality when there verdict is read out there are no real winners.

The woman is a fûcking hero if she helps convict two rapists.

She's a winner in my eyes either way for having the balls to bring this to trial irrespective of the verdict. Far too many women are cowed into silence after experiences like this.

After what experience?

She has said she was raped. The boys have said she wasnt.

Question (which I doubt you will answer).....if you slept with a woman and you believed all was fair, she said you raped her and you were found innocent - would you say she was a hero?

You were asked a very simple yes or no question Syf... any word of an answer??

Syf couldn't dignify that question with a reply.
That's a straw mans argument from Taylor, even Syf could spot that one from a km away.
You Nordies must do better.
Never mind visualising Syf sleeping with a woman.

[AQMP]

Why did the PSNI contact Les Kiss in the aftermath of the complaint? What did he have to do with it??

[trileacman]

Why did the PSNI contact Les Kiss in the aftermath of the complaint? What did he have to do with it??

A very f**king strange one that. Bizzare move on their part.

[Main Street]

Recklessness isn't an issue. The jury will be told they can only convict if they are satisfied to the requisite standard that the defendants did not reasonably believe the injured party was not consenting.

OK - though I'm struggling with your explanation (my fault, not yours).   
If I interpret your wording in my own words, the jury can only find guilty if they reasonably believe that Jackson and Olding didn't think she was not saying yes.  That makes no sense to me - sorry!  Is there another less legal way of explaining it?

Reckless is a legal issue and relates to this case. What you wrote Rois was pertinent.
An accused person could be judged reckless in being somewhat aware that the woman was not complaint, but carried on regardless. A legal standard of consent is that the accused genuinely believed he had consent from the woman. The jury might be asked that (about the accuseds'  belief being genuine)  from the Judge in this case.
We already know that merely having a belief that a woman was consenting is not a legal defence

That's wrong. It is a defence provided such a belief is not unreasonable.

It's not wrong. my wording is very accurate.
Merely having a belief that consent was given is not a defence, it has to be deemed a reasonable belief that consent was given,  in order to be regarded as a genuine defence.
There is a huge difference between a defendant having a belief it was consensual  and a defendant whose belief is deemed reasonable. It is the difference between still being an accused defending a charge to one who has been proven innocent.

The legal concept of recklessness is not relevant in a rape case in Northern Ireland.

The word reckless was in the UK sexual offences act, but dropped out in 2003 for a wider criteria