FAI...June 2024 Friendlies v Hungary and Portugal

[thewobbler]

Talent is a subjective gauge.

When Doherty first broke into the Spurs team (after a £1m transfer) he was a decent player. But a leg break or two later he was too slow and seemingly spent the rest of his career making howling mistakes.

McShane was on United's books as a youngster.

These guys must have been seen as talented at one stage.

Ciaran Clark, I'll admit I've only seen a few times (including versus Spurs a fortnight ago). I hope he's the future, but I haven't seen this talent shine through yet.

[Dinny Breen]

[Crete Boom]

Crete Boom, I don't think there's such a thing as a Trap supporter in the whole of Ireland - and I'm certainly not one.

But Ireland's current malaise is not even a malaise; Germany are on a different level to us these days and when they come together, we have no chance, even with 11 men behind the ball.

But after tonight we will be in joint second place again, and second place is the best we would ever achieve in this group.  The only games that actually matter in qualifying are those against Sweden and Austria, and I'd rather we played those with a settled team and formation than with something plucked out of the sky Championship manager style.

Again Wobbler I agree with you totally about the abilities of this current Irish crop of players but I just don't think Trap is capable of getting the best out of these players anymore. I do think he is getting some selections hugely wrong as in O'Dea instead of Clark and clearly playing Simon Cox out of position is unfair both to Cox and the fans notwithstanding the fact Cox would struggle to get in the team in his proper position of striker. Also Trap still can't fully grasp the need for a middle three which is a must for Ireland. Also he's too loyal to certain players like McGeady who is clearly not on form for us at the moment and Stephen Ward was struggling for a long time even before the euros. Also he doesn't seem to be brave enough to drop Robbie ( which is a big call given he's our greatest ever striker) for the betterment of the whole team so we can employ a 5 man midfield. Also for such a conservative manager why didn't he pick Stephen Kelly at right back and Coleman on the right side of midfield with McGeady on the left against Germany when we knew we would be on the defensive for most of the game? These are all things we should expect from a top class international manger and this is why I think we need to make a change after the Faroes match regardless of the result! While they players might be average a manger who doesn't seem to be able to pick these average players in the right positions in a system that suits them is an even bigger obstacle than their limited talent!

[rodney trotter]

Talent is a subjective gauge.

When Doherty first broke into the Spurs team (after a £1m transfer) he was a decent player. But a leg break or two later he was too slow and seemingly spent the rest of his career making howling mistakes.

McShane was on United's books as a youngster.

These guys must have been seen as talented at one stage.

Ciaran Clark, I'll admit I've only seen a few times (including versus Spurs a fortnight ago). I hope he's the future, but I haven't seen this talent shine through yet.

[/b]


He hasn't been getting the chance that the problem. Darren O Dea playing in Toronto with a team that is struggling, losing 10 games in a row, gets starting ahead of him.

Clarke has been one of Villa's better players in the last few games, and they are a very average team.

[Asal Mor]

Interesting stats there Dinny. I'm surprised at how good Kerr looks on paper. Only 4 losses. I always had it in my mind that the McCarthy years were much better than Kerr's but those stats would strongly suggest differently.

[stew]

Why does the Trap man not go to games in Engerland to watch hbis players? he reportedly relies on DVD's to make his selections......if true, he needs to either change his ways or pack his bags,,,, attention to detail me arse!

[Applesisapples]

So:

Did Trapp work a miracle qualifying Ireland for the Euros?

We finished second in a weak group (apart from Russia) and that was largely down to a near miracle in Moscow. Then we were lucky to get the handiest draw going. We should have been comfortably second in that group. We have lots of guys playing in the prem but no - lets pick lads with no club/ playing in mickey mouse leagues ahead of them. Its a shambles. I hope Trapp is gone and players get picked on merit again. The last few years have been horrible and anyone defending it is unpatriotic in my book.

This is the most sensible post I have read. It would appear being unattached is preferable to being at a premiership club in trapps eyes. I'm not comparing Ireland with Barca, but they will play a decent footballer in a position even if its not his regular spot rather than play second rate position specialists. Trapps treatment of some players has been shameful as well. Time the cat in the bag was put into the Royal Canal.

[Dinny Breen]

Interesting stats there Dinny. I'm surprised at how good Kerr looks on paper. Only 4 losses. I always had it in my mind that the McCarthy years were much better than Kerr's but those stats would strongly suggest differently.

I always believed that Kerr got a rough ride, never seem to get the support he deserved. He's methods were perfect for international football I always thought and we would have done well at tournaments if he got us there and that was the the crux he didn't. Also remember a column he wrote where he talked about how the senior players told him to stop sending DVDs of analysis to them as one of the things they enjoyed about playing for Ireland was to get away from that....

[AZOffaly]

I think this is a case of lies, damn lies and statistics. During McCarthy's reign Ireland beat Croatia, Yugoslavia, Holland, got draws away from home with the Dutch, Portugal, draws with Romania and Hagi at home, and made it to 3 playoffs, including going to WC2002. They drew with Germany over there, and Spain. All of these were serious teams at the time, and while some would say Roy Keane won some of those games on his own, at least McCarthy let them go out and play.

Kerr is a fine coach as well, but I think he was too conservative. The amounts of leads lost by his teams was brutal, where they went back into their shell after taking a lead or something. Kerr was unable to get a victory over any seeds in his groups, although he did manage draws with France and Russia in two campaigns. He also lost to France and Switzerland,  and had damaging drab draws against Switzerland and Israel, and finished 4th in the group for 2006 WC qualification.

Friendlies and the like should be taken out of comparisons like the above.

[AZOffaly]

Interesting stats there Dinny. I'm surprised at how good Kerr looks on paper. Only 4 losses. I always had it in my mind that the McCarthy years were much better than Kerr's but those stats would strongly suggest differently.

I always believed that Kerr got a rough ride, never seem to get the support he deserved. He's methods were perfect for international football I always thought and we would have done well at tournaments if he got us there and that was the the crux he didn't. Also remember a column he wrote where he talked about how the senior players told him to stop sending DVDs of analysis to them as one of the things they enjoyed about playing for Ireland was to get away from that....

I think Kerr is a good coach, but for some reason he seemed inhibited by the job. If Ireland took a lead you could be guaranteed they would sit back, invite the opposition on, and concede. Kerr would have qualified for both tournaments he was around for if he'd really had a go. I still think he is a good coach though, and I agree he'd be a great tournament strategist.

Kerr's competitive results

29/03/03: Tbilisi: Georgia 1-2 Ireland
Kobiashvili 60 / Damien Duff 18, Gary Doherty 85

02/04/03: Tirana: Albania 0-0 Ireland

07/06/03: Lansdowne Road, Dublin: Ireland 2-1 Albania
Robbie Keane 6, Aliaj 90+2og / Skela 8

11/06/03: Lansdowne Road, Dublin: Ireland 2-0 Georgia
Gary Doherty 43, Robbie Keane 59

06/09/03: Lansdowne Road, Dublin: Ireland 1-1 Russia
Damien Duff 35 / Ignashevitch 42

11/10/03: Basel: Switzerland 2-0 Ireland
Yakin 6, Frei 60

04/09/04: Dublin: Ireland: 3-0 Cyprus
Clinton Morrison 33, Andy Reid 38, Robbie Keane 55 Pen

08/09/04: Basel: Switzerland 1-1 Ireland
Hakan Yakin 17; Clinton Morrison 9

09/10/04: Saint-Denis: France 0-0 Ireland

13/10/04: Dublin: Ireland 2-0 Faroe Islands
Robbie Keane 14 Pen, 32

26/03/05: Ramat Gan: Israel 1-1 Ireland
Abbas Suan 90+1; Clinton Morrison 4

04/06/05: Dublin: Ireland 2-2 Israel
Ian Harte 5, Robbie Keane 11; Avi Yemiel 39, Avi Nimni 46

08/06/05: Tórshavn: Faroe Islands 0-2 Ireland
Ian Harte 51, Kevin Kilbane 59

07/09/05: Dublin: Ireland 0-1 France
Thierry Henry 68

08/10/05: Lefkosia: Cyprus 0-1 Ireland
Stephen Elliott 6

12/10/05: Dublin: Ireland 0-0 Switzerland


So by my reckoning, Kerr's competitive matches is P16, W7 D6 L3.

If you look at the 6 competitive draws, 4 of them were score draws, and  Ireland took the lead in all 4 of them, including going 2 up versus Israel at Lansdowne.

[Asal Mor]

I think this is a case of lies, damn lies and statistics. During McCarthy's reign Ireland beat Croatia, Yugoslavia, Holland, got draws away from home with the Dutch, Portugal, draws with Romania and Hagi at home, and made it to 3 playoffs, including going to WC2002. They drew with Germany over there, and Spain. All of these were serious teams at the time, and while some would say Roy Keane won some of those games on his own, at least McCarthy let them go out and play.

Kerr is a fine coach as well, but I think he was too conservative. The amounts of leads lost by his teams was brutal, where they went back into their shell after taking a lead or something. Kerr was unable to get a victory over any seeds in his groups, although he did manage draws with France and Russia in two campaigns. He also lost to France and Switzerland,  and had damaging drab draws against Switzerland and Israel, and finished 4th in the group for 2006 WC qualification.

Friendlies and the like should be taken out of comparisons like the above.

Now you mention it AZ I do remember a couple of games whee Ireland went ahead against inferior opposition( Israel was one) and tried to play for a draw from a long way out. I even remember an Irish player trying to run down the clock by holding the ball near the corner flag with 20 or 30 minutes left. Awful stuff. Kerr probably got the sack for that style of play as much as the results. Mick showed some faith in the players and they played good football.

I'm pretty much just reposting what AZ already said.

[AZOffaly]

Also, in competitive internationals, Mick McCarthy's record in the bacon slicer was P34 W18 D11 L5.

[AZOffaly]

Actually check that, he also played in the WC2002 tournaments I was only counting qualifiers, so his overall record is P38 W19 D14* L5   *includes draw AET with Spain, lost on penalties.

Edit, I didn't add the defeats to Russia and Switzerland in Euro 04 qualifying, so it's 40-19-13-8 I think.

[shark]

Ciaran Clarke is the future

Based on playing a dozen games for a rubbish Aston Villa side?

I really hope I'm wrong, but at this stage he is no more the future than Gary Doherty was 10 years ago, or Paul McShane was 5 years ago.

4 dozen more like. He will play his 50th game for Villa in the next couple of weeks. In saying that, as someone who has watched all his games this season in their entirety, in my opinion he has a long way to go.  While he is quite comfortable on the ball and is dangerous from set pieces, his actual defensive side isn't good enough.  Although as has been pointed out he's playing in a struggling Villa team.

[AZOffaly]

Just because I don't like friendly results, I collated the competitive results, including play offs, from the excellent http://www.soccer-ireland.com. Here they are... Sorry about the formatting.



                              P   W   D   L   GF   GA   W%   D%   L%      
Jack Charlton   Euro 88Q   8   4   3   1   10   5   50   37.5   12.5      
                   Euro 88   3   1   1   1   2   2   33.3   33.3   33.3      
                   WC90Q   8   5   2   1   10   2   62.5   25   12.5      
                   WC90   5   0   4   1   2   3   0   80   20      Won on Penalties v Romania
                   Euro92Q   6   2   4   0   13   6   33.3   66.6   0      
                   WC94Q   12   7   4   1   19   6   58.3   33.3   8.3      
                   WC94    4   1   1   2   2   4   25   25   50      
                     Euro96Q   11   5   2   4   17   13   45.4   18.1   36.3      
                    Total    57   25   21   11   75   41   43.8   36.8   19.2      
                                    
Mick McCarthy   WC98Q   12   5   4   3   24   11   41.6   33.3   25      
                   Euro00Q   10   5   3   2   15   7   50   30   20      
                   WC02Q   12   8   3   1   25   6   66.6   25   8.3      
                   WC02   4   1   3   0   6   3   25   75   0      Lost on Penalties to Spain
                   Euro04Q   2   0   0   2   3   6   0   0   100      Lost Job after 2 games
                   Total    40   19   13   8   73   33   47.5   32.5   20      
                                    
Brian Kerr           Euro04Q   6   3   2   1   7   5   50   33.3   16.6      
                   WC06Q   10   4   5   1   12   5   40   50   10      
                   Total    16   7   7   2   19   10   43.7   43.7   12.5      
                                    
Steve StauntonEuro08Q   12   4   5   3   14   17   33.3   41.6   25      
                    Total    12   4   5   3   14   17   33.3   41.6   25      
                                    
Trap                   WC10Q   12   4   7   1   12   8   33.3   58.3   8.3      
                     Euro12Q   12   7   4   1   20   8   58.3   33.3 8.3      
                   Euro12    3   0   0   3   1   9   0   0   100      
                   WC14Q   2   1   0   1   3   7   50   0   50      
                   Total    29   12   11   6   36   32   41.3   37.9 20.6