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Who do we hate the most? The referees, the team from the next parish, the British establishments? Let's have a vote.

Always the team from the next parish! I don't give a fcuk about the Brits or other sports. It's Ballygalget we hate!!

I said the team from the next parish, but i meant Roscommon, not Knockmore

The Brits. That includes other sports.

God we're very inward looking. Is this a stenght or a weakness for the association?

In fact they r all pretty hateful!!!!! Most refs are egatisical bastards who have preconceved ideas about who should win. They r only in it for the money. No doubt about it. The refs Ive seen this yr r gettingh WORST.

Quote from: Colonel Cool on December 06, 2006, 09:39:17 PM
Always the team from the next parish! I don't give a fcuk about the Brits or other sports. It's Ballygalget we hate!!

Jealousy is an awful thing, does it keep you awake at night?

The neighbouring club.

I would like to take this opportunity to wish Scotstown nothing but misfortune and ill-luck in all their endeavours next year from U-10 up to senior. May you win nothing.

I know a British soccer referee from the next parish---Guess he'd be really popular among you guys!

I wouldn't have a problem with him myself, assuming as he was of an amiable disposition.

What if he was a a British soccer referee from the next parish who carried a man bag? What would you think then Charlie?

In that case I would fear that his disposition was too amiable if you know what I mean, and I'd keep my distance.  ;)

It has to be the Brits for me. Hating the neighbouring club more than the Brits is something I just can't understand. We may be rivals on the sports field but off it we are all Irishmen. Referees come and go. Some are hateful basta*ds but others a re ok. I'm happy to watch rugby on TV and follow the fortunes of Ireland & the 4 provinces so I can't say I hate other sports. St John's are a shower of hateful middle class c*nts but deep down I really don't hate them. It the Brits for me.

As a Down man it has to be Armagh

As an Armagh man it has to be Down

Keady - Nothing else to be said.

I don't think there could be anything worse than an English man living and supporting Tyrone ;)

During my playing Career i hated having to play Clans in Davitt Park, 1) The pitch is massive
2) It was always raining with a gale force wind
3) Them F$%kers could run all day

;D

Quote from: stephenite on December 06, 2006, 09:42:54 PM
I said the team from the next parish, but i meant Roscommon, not Knockmore

Right back at ya! Unless your playing the Dubs in which case i would support yis or the dark lord lucifer himself before the Jackeens.

Quote from: Spiritof98 on December 07, 2006, 08:38:16 AM
Keady - Nothing else to be said.

I have to agree with spirit, I know we're supposed to hate the Harps but it was always keady.

What about the team from the same parish?

jeez hate is a bit strong lads
I dont even hate the Brits..

dont like the brit media though
or the Irish media come to think of it...

That's a question for Stephenite mid mon! I said the Brits. As Guillem said how the hell can anyone hate the team from the next parish, when sometimes they're great friends (off the pitch) and are all Irish.

I live for the return of Meath to that list.

Paddy Heaney and university teams playing ringers.

Quote from: Hardy on December 07, 2006, 11:38:07 AM
I live for the return of Meath to that list.

Dont worry Hardy, we hate ye still.  :)

Ah thanks. There's hope yet.

And the same to you, of course.

Quote from: Guillem2 on December 07, 2006, 08:05:58 AM
It has to be the Brits for me. Hating the neighbouring club more than the Brits is something I just can't understand. We may be rivals on the sports field but off it we are all Irishmen. Referees come and go. Some are hateful basta*ds but others a re ok. I'm happy to watch rugby on TV and follow the fortunes of Ireland & the 4 provinces so I can't say I hate other sports. St John's are a shower of hateful middle class c*nts but deep down I really don't hate them. It the Brits for me.

You've confused me now, Guillem. As one of around a million Irish people who also considers himself to be British, which category do I fall into? And what if I'm also one of your neighbours?
Maybe the categories need widening, to include "Irish people who call themselves Brits"? Or "Brits who call themselves Irish"? What about "West Brits"? Maybe just "The English"?
It's a poser, isn't it?

Still, it's reassuring to hear that 3/5ths of GAA fans appear not actually to "hate" a million of their fellow islanders...  ;)

"Maybe the categories need widening, to include "Irish people who call themselves Brits"?

Great point Evil Genuis, I'd definately vote for them!

As a self proclaimed Brit, do you also follow the GAA?

"Still, it's reassuring to hear that 3/5ths of GAA fans appear not actually to "hate" a million of their fellow islanders"

The poll is on who you hate THE MOST, just cause you dont vote for one doesnt mean you dont hate them too!

Quote from: dubnut on December 07, 2006, 01:26:17 PM
"Still, it's reassuring to hear that 3/5ths of GAA fans appear not actually to "hate" a million of their fellow islanders"

The poll is on who you hate THE MOST, just cause you dont vote for one doesnt mean you dont hate them too!

Does this mean that we (i.e. "the million others") are not actually "Brits"? And if so, does that mean we are simply "Irish"? Or mere "Neighbours"? I only ask in case I decide to become a fan of Gaelic sports, so that I'll know what sort of welcome I might expect... :-\

is this the first time you posted on the GAA discussion side?

Dont give him too much attention or he wont go away.
Trust me, one of the plagues of the non GAA site, only here to stir things up.
Strictly anti-gaa agenda.

Evil Genius
Who are your local GAA Club and what level do their senior team play at?

the Mayo County Board and the Verger

Quote from: dubnut on December 07, 2006, 01:24:17 PM
"Maybe the categories need widening, to include "Irish people who call themselves Brits"?

Great point Evil Genuis, I'd definately vote for them!

As a self proclaimed Brit, do you also follow the GAA?

I'm actually interested in most sports (well, motor sports excepted, since they invariably bore the tits off me). As such, I have a passing interest in Gaelic Football, though am slightly ambivalent partly because of the political "hue" that attaches itself to the game (in certain of the Ulster counties, anyhow), though more because it is a competitor with my own preferred game, soccer (as I think you term it).
From what very little I've seen of hurling, it seems to be a wonderfully skillfull and athletic game, but I've never lived in any of its traditional heartlands, so it doesn't really "appear on my radar".
My Granda was an accomplished Handball player AFAIK, but that was a long time ago.

On reflection, I think I'd like to follow GAA, but it has certain off-putting elements which deter me, including the notion that 2/5ths of its followers don't appear in the least embarrassed about voting that they "hate" me and my sort on this Poll. Of course, I accept that this kind of survey has a tongue-in-cheek element to it, so that it should not necessarily be taken at face value.
Perhaps more disturbing than the active "haters", are those who, when they see the term "Brits", don't even stop to think that that might actually include people who work at the next desk to them, or catch the same bus, go to the same films, or drink in the same bars. Perhaps it's the Irish accents which throw them off the scent... 8)

Heres a question for the Northern contributors.
Theres about a million of you in all.
Evil Genuis reckons you consider yourselves to be British.

"As one of around a million Irish people who also considers himself to be British, which category do I fall into?"

Care to comment?

I hate the straw hat, Tin of Harp drinking, big Championship match band wagon brigade that plague most counties.

Why go to a game and get smashed off yer face before watching it.

Clubs should stop these booze buses leaving their area to bring young ones (& not so young ones) to Clones, Croker, Casement etc etc to puke and piss all over the street.

Have to admit my own county Tyrone is as bad as any others for this disease

Quote from: lurganblue on December 07, 2006, 01:42:56 PM
is this the first time you posted on the GAA discussion side?

No, I have contributed to two other threads. One was "Twenty Reasons why Football is better than Soccer", where my attempt at a humourous reply seemed to bring the wrath of several other posters down on my head. This criticism wasn't just for the actual substance of my post, but also of the "What right do you have even to be here?" variety.
I also started a thread on the proposed new Maze stadium, since this obviously affects both codes directly, and I was keen to hear the opinions of GAA fans.
Aside from that, I browse the GAA section occasionally out of interest, but don't post, since I'm really not qualified even to venture an opinion.

As regards this particular thread, I have to say I was struck by the unselfconscious manner in which some GAA fans appear blithely not even to "see" that there are a million other people on this island who might raise an eyebrow at seeing a poll on a sports board which could be taken to mean that they are "hated", for no reason, sporting or otherwise, other than that they hold a different political opinion.

I used to think that many fans of GAA were antagonistic towards people like me; after browsing this Board, I have been educated to understand that this is not so, other than for a small but vociferous minority, mostly located in six of the most Northerly counties of the island (if I may express it so!).
However, I still feel that many more GAA fans simply do not see that there is another Irish "constituency" sharing this island with them, to which they are wholly indifferent, at best.

To put it another way, how would people here feel if they were to see a poll on a soccer board asking who they "hated" most, which alongside the usual suspects (Linfield, Glentoran, Man U, Liverpool etc), they also included "the Irish"? I suspect that the 40% of people on here who voted for "The Brits" would actually be the first to be spitting feathers in outrage.

Anyhow, those are just my thoughts, seeing as you asked.

P.S. Before anyone jumps in, I did not actually start this thread, nor did I place it in the "GAA Section", so anyone who doesn't like my particular replies, might just look towards whoever it was did. Unless there is some sort of "qualification" which one must hold before being "allowed" to post on a public discussion board?  ;)

When calculating your stats please modify them to include the significant majority who don't bother their holes with infantile shit like this before making sweeping generalisations.

"I used to think that many fans of GAA were antagonistic towards people like me"

The other way round Evil Genius!

Quote from: magpie seanie on December 07, 2006, 02:31:02 PM
When calculating your stats please modify them to include the significant majority who don't bother their holes with infantile shit like this before making sweeping generalisations.

"Of course, I accept that this kind of survey has a tongue-in-cheek element to it, so that it should not necessarily be taken at face value."

"I was struck by the unselfconscious manner in which some GAA fans appear..."

Still, it's reassuring to hear that 3/5ths of GAA fans appear not actually to "hate" a million of their fellow islanders" ;)

"...including the notion that 2/5ths of its followers don't appear in the least embarrassed about voting that they "hate" me and my sort on this Poll."

I had hoped by my careful use of the language above (plus smilies) to demonstrate that I by no means consider a Poll like this, or even this Board in general, to be a comprehensive and accurate reflection of the views of all fans of GAA.

Nor will I take it personally that none of the other posters on this Board felt inclined to contribute to the debate along the lines of: "Perhaps Evil Genius has a point", or "I'd never thought about it in that way", or even "I think he's talking crap, but we might respect his right to hold such an opinion".

But as I've said before, just as GAA appears to feel it can happily live without the interest of one million Irish people, I've no doubt those same one million Irish can happily live without GAA, sad though both such conclusions may be for what they denote.

Hate's a strong word. I always prefer dislike. For the info I voted "none of the above", even though T****reagh are hard to listen to.

" just as GAA appears to feel it can happily live without the interest of one million Irish people"

Funny I thought there was a few up North playing Gaelic football and hurling, thanks for clarifying otherwise  ::)

in reality though i know its wrong it has to be the ref whens the last time you scream you wanted to kill some one and meant it at the time except at a referee whereas we hust pity Knockmore who havent even won a allireland club championship

Quote from: dubnut on December 07, 2006, 02:57:14 PM
" just as GAA appears to feel it can happily live without the interest of one million Irish people"

Funny I thought there was a few up North playing Gaelic football and hurling, thanks for clarifying otherwise  ::)

Indeed, there are very many "up North" playing GAA sports; it's just that very few of them come from the Unionist community (or "the "Brits" as they are sometimes known). Perhaps one of the reasons for this might be that they have somehow concluded that they might be "hated" by certain elements from within the GAA Community?  ;)

if pushed I would have to go along with rosnarun's sentiments

refs (and indeed GAA county or club boards/committees etc) that are not impartial, lack of consistency
or where there is injustice - thats what I hate (in most sports and life in general too).

"Perhaps one of the reasons for this might be that they have somehow concluded that they might be "hated" by certain elements from within the GAA Community?"

Bull, they HATE the GAA, as Ian óg Paisley proves on a regular basis.

You are taking this poll way to seriously Evil Genius, it was a bit of fun for members of the board.
Not shit stirrers.

Quote from: dubnut on December 07, 2006, 03:08:09 PM
"Perhaps one of the reasons for this might be that they have somehow concluded that they might be "hated" by certain elements from within the GAA Community?"

You are taking this poll way to seriously Evil Genius, it was a bit of fun for members of the board.

The quotation of mine which you include above had a "wink" smilie after it; it was meant to denote that my comment wasn't altogether serious... :-*

I presumed none of them were  ;)

Stephenite u'll be happy to hear that when i vote neighbour i dont mean the rossies!
Hate is a bit strong but there is no nicer feeling than, as i flet as recently as 2 weeks ago, sitting with mates from ballina watching the saffron and blue knock 7 colours of shite outta them.
Rosnarun no need for a southmayoman to be pitying the parish of backs.

Dubnut i have to say evil genius is making some very valid points, even though his 1 million people living in ireland who call themselves british sounds far overestimated.
U said the poll was a bit of fun for members, of which evil genius is one
I have to agree with him on his observation that the blatent bigitory that is taken for granted on this board as par for the course by most gaaboard, and indeed gaa, members.
Just because u are a memebr of the gaa does not mean that u are automatically republican. I for one believe that northern ireland shoudl be its own independent state, free from both the dublin and london governments because i feel this is the only viable solution for a peaceful future. Having lived in the north i think there are a lot of people who would be happy enough with this.

But i fear that by posting sentiments such as this on this board I'll get branded a west-brit, a hun-lover etc, I'm not, my grandfather and his brothers fought in the war of independence for the IRA and my father and one of his brothers were on one side of the civil war while they had another brother on the opposite, pro-treaty, side. I consider myself to be a proud irishman but someone who can look at things as they are now in the 21st century and realise that the ideals that my grandfather and his brothers fought for will not lead to peace in ireland.

Mayo, thats fine and your opinion, I strongly disagree with lots of it, but your opinion.
I do however take issue with a non GAA fans like Evil Genius joining up to stir things up specifically.
This is the ONLY reason he is here.
I would say he would be delighted to see us argueing amongst ourselves.
A kind of "mission accomplished" for him.

I saw it on the non GAA board and sadly now creeping on here.

you big west brit!

I cant see from his posts how u think he's stirring things up, giving a prodestant/british view on things is hardly stirring it up. At no point does he go about calling anyone anything derogetary. He disagrees with alot of the slanted opinion that is posted here but this is a discussion board, are we that inward and backward that we're able to have a logical argument? His posts, or what i've read of them, seems to make a good argument of his opinion based on facts. he did say he came here to see exactly what gaa people were like and if this is the way he's treated i think its a sad indication of where gaa fans are at.

"and if this is the way he's treated i think its a sad indication of where gaa fans are at"

I think you are grossly over reacting Mayo4Sam.
The only bad treatment he got was the errors in his posts being pointed out (as happens to all posters) and his motives being questioned.
From what I have seen on the non GAA board it is my opinion that he is here on the wind up so I said it.
Hardly dogs abuse!  :o

Quote from: dubnut on December 07, 2006, 03:48:51 PM
Mayo, thats fine and your opinion, I strongly disagree with lots of it, but your opinion.
I do however take issue with a non GAA fans like Evil Genius joining up to stir things up specifically.
This is the ONLY reason he is here.
I would say he would be delighted to see us argueing amongst ourselves.
A kind of "mission accomplished" for him.

I saw it on the non GAA board and sadly now creeping on here.

Curious.

Mayo4Sam is "allowed" to post opinions with which you disagree, but not certain other posters, including me.
I note that the gist of your replies to my posts is generally to attack the messenger, rather than the message. Is this because you do not actually have any reply, or simply because you cannot see past (your impression of) the poster?
Just because my opinions might "stir" you, does not mean I joined just to "stir things up specifically", nor is it the "only reason" I am here. Rather, I visit this site because I am interested in what other people think.
And I am neither "delighted", nor am I in the least bit surprised, that posters on a Board like this should disagree on various topics, GAA-related or otherwise. That is because I do not see all GAA fans as being homogeneous (or "all the bloody same", as some would have it).

But that, in fact, goes to the very heart of my posts in this thread. Just as not every GAA fan is exactly the same, neither is every Irishman (or "Brit" for that matter). I personally think it a good thing to allow healthy dissent; by your attacks on me, it seems you do not.

Surely if people within GAA circles are to be allowed to hold differing opinions, then people without GAA circles should be accorded the same privilege?
Unless, of course, you "wouldn't have them about the place..."

GAA For All?  ;)

"Attacks" ???

More so personal opinion Evil Genius.
It so happens that my personal opinion of you is quite low, surely thats allowed too?

Plus I questioned some facts in your posts too rather than "attack the messenger" such as your point that 1 million people consider themselves British.
This is not true. Funny you never retracted that!

Let it go Evil Genius, no-one wants to see another drawn out personal spat.
You gave your opinion, I gave mine, let that be that.

Mayo4sam just because you born on the wrong side of Nephin doesnt mean you can go accusing decent people of being from south mayo.

I always got the impression u were a shrule man or from that neck of the woods, somewhere over there in the footballing wilderness near galway ;)

not a bit of it from a club cannibalised by the former all ireland club champions though we do cheer them on at this stage as most of the senior team are our players anyway

You've lost me  ???

you were getting too close , my club is a largely inactive part of deel rovers a cookie if you can name it

Quote from: dubnut on December 07, 2006, 04:43:50 PM
Plus I questioned some facts in your posts too rather than "attack the messenger" such as your point that 1 million people consider themselves British.
This is not true. Funny you never retracted that!

The population of NI in the 2001 Census was given at 1,685,267. One million would constitute 59.3% of that figure. In the last NI election (2004 Westminster), 56.1% of the voters chose to vote for pro-Union parties.
Therefore, I shall indeed retract my "one million" claim.

P.S. Does it make any difference to the validity of my argument if only 946,000 Irish people consider themselves British, without the extra 54,000 I so disingenuously, nay deceitfully, claimed?  ???

P.P.S. I've just checked my original post in this thread (a reply to Guillem2, on Page 2); in that, the figure I cited was "around a million". So on the basis that you misrepresented me, I now retract my retraction!  :D 

Quote from: ballwasthere on December 07, 2006, 05:56:46 PM
I hate tossers who waste space on community message boards suffering from delusions that they are being victiimised. Not being part of the GAA, they obviously do not understand the parachocial sense of humour and camaradery that goes with the organisation.

If you're referring to me, BWT, then I do not suffer from any "delusions that I am being victimised" (though I'll leave it for you to guess whether that is because I am not delusional, or not being victimised!)
As for your second point (not being "part of the GAA"), I am not American, either, but I manage to understand the humour of, eg, the Simpsons.
Is the GAA really so "parochial", metaphorically as well as literally, that outsiders cannot understand it? That all sounds a bit "masonic", even Orange Order to me! (I am neither a Mason, nor an Orangeman, btw).
It's all a bit of a shame, really, since in the spirit of Trevor Ringland's "One Small Step", I took to reading this part of the Board specifically to try to understand better the thinking of GAA fans, but perhaps that simply won't work.
Of course, I could join the GAA in order to further my education, but if the reaction of this Board of, ahem, GAA people is anything to go by, I'm not sure I could expect much of a welcome. Or is "hatred" for the Brits actually some form of GAA-argot which really means "love"?  :-*

QuoteOf course, I could join the GAA in order to further my education, but if the reaction of this Board of, ahem, GAA people is anything to go by, I'm not sure I could expect much of a welcome.

Why what bad reaction did you get?

Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 07, 2006, 06:17:22 PM

QuoteOf course, I could join the GAA in order to further my education, but if the reaction of this Board of, ahem, GAA people is anything to go by, I'm not sure I could expect much of a welcome.

Why what bad reaction did you get?

"Dont give him too much attention or he wont go away.
Trust me, one of the plagues of the non GAA site, only here to stir things up.
Strictly anti-gaa agenda." [This one was presumably inspired by my desription of Hurling as being a "wonderfully skillful and athletic game"]

"When calculating your stats please modify them to include the significant majority who don't bother their holes with infantile shit like this before making sweeping generalisations"

"You are taking this poll way to seriously Evil Genius, it was a bit of fun for members of the board.
Not shit stirrers"

"I do however take issue with a non GAA fans like Evil Genius joining up to stir things up specifically.
This is the ONLY reason he is here.
I would say he would be delighted to see us argueing amongst ourselves.
A kind of "mission accomplished" for him."

"I hate tossers who waste space on community message boards suffering from delusions that they are being victiimised."

The above are only the reactions I've received on this thread. When I attempted a humourous reply to another thread comparing Gaelic Football with Soccer, many of the replies were vituperative out of all proportion (imo). And that's before we get to some of the comments in response to my posts in the non-GAA section!

Don't get me wrong, I am not in the least upset by this response; and though I half expected it, I appreciate that it may not accurately the feelings of  members generally, some of whom may actually understand my stance, even if the majority are entirely indifferent. Besides, I'm a big boy now, so I ought to be able to look after myself when a bit of stick comes my way without running home to Mammy in tears.

I guess the point I am making is that if this Board's membership is anything to go by, perhaps the GAA doesn't altogether go out of its way to welcome those Irish people like me who may be interested in sport, but who are in some way "disqualified" from joining in, or even having an opinion, by virtue of having a different political outlook from the norm.

Or does a return of 40% on a sports website hating "The Brits", rather than some sporting rival, or the Officials etc, suggest something different?  ??? 

Anyhow, here's a question for you and the rest of the Board: How would you feel if the category of "The Brits" in this Poll were replaced with "Foreigners", "Immigrants", "Travellers" or even "Blacks" or "Jews"?  ;)

Jaysus Evil Genius is taking this poll horrid serious....  :D

Anyone got a tiny little violin?  :D :D :D :D :D

Quote from: ballwasthere on December 07, 2006, 06:53:21 PM
Do you know why the GAA was established and its aims, evil g?
Maybe the answer to this question will answer your questions

I do, indeed, know the GAA's origins and aims BWT, not least from having read up about it on the GAA's official website. I found the various accounts and stories to be fascinating and illuminating and I can see how they may be inspiring for many people (if not for me personally).

But one consequence of my research is that I also know that the GAA and its aims were established not in this century, nor even the last century, but the one before that.

As a fan of many other sports, including e.g. soccer, rugby, cricket, athletics and boxing, I am grateful that those sports, at least, manage to confine some of the more antiquated and contentious aspects of their history to an appropriate place, namely museums and history books, without at the same time either forgetting them, nor allowing them to inform every aspect of their modern-day thinking.  8)

Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 07, 2006, 06:17:22 PM

QuoteOf course, I could join the GAA in order to further my education, but if the reaction of this Board of, ahem, GAA people is anything to go by, I'm not sure I could expect much of a welcome.

Why what bad reaction did you get?

I would think on this thread and on other threads he/she has got quiet a bad reception, in the main due to the fact that there has been no attempt to hide the fact that this is not a gaa supporter but someone "just in for a look".
Bad form IMHO

I'm not going to comment either way on the content of this debate but I have to say that for "quality of argument", Evil Genius wins hands down.
Very articulate, rational and not one personal insult.
Impressive.

Agreed Charlie,He does come across very well and makes valid points...... He obviously doesnt understand GAAesque humour though......if he did he would know the poll was done Tongue in cheek,and that the vast majority of those who voted for the Brits,in reality hold no real illfeeling towards  normal ordinary British People.
(PS...i voted for my nearest neighbours...Redhills and Drumalee  >:(  >:(  >:( Hatred there is serious as Brick or Boojangles will tell ya  ;D )

Jesus EG if you think those things amount to a bad reaction you've lived a very sheltered life.  I have had a lot worse said to me (and it's not as if I bring it on myself)  and so has a lot of others.
I think you'll also find when nationalists (for the want of a better word) refer to the "brits" they aren't talking about the protesant/unionist people in the north nor are they talking about ordinary English people  or the scots or the welsh, they are refering the British army and British rule in Ireland.  But I suspect you already knew that.

QuoteIs the GAA really so "parochial", metaphorically as well as literally

the GAA is somewhat "parochial" in the best sense of the word. The GAA is based on people who have pride in their place. This doesn't fit well people who don't identify with the place they are associated with. Irish people who regard themselves as British, French or whatever, despite having no particular connection to Britain or France, have a rather different attitude than GAA members generally. You can criticise the GAA for its devotion to its founding values, although in fact the GAA evolves all of the time.  However a community who think of themselves as British because their ancestors came from Britain 400 years ago can hardly throw stones in regard to concern with outmoded values.

As Montgomery Brewster said, "None of the Above"

I suppose the word "hate" needs to be defined in order to conduct a proper poll.

I loathe the team from the next parish on the field and always want to see them beaten. Off the field however some of them are good mates.
I abhor British foerign policy and their continued occupation of a section of our country. I have no problem with the ordinary man from Britain who goes about his business to make ends meet in much the same way as I do though.
The referee will always make bad decisions against my team. It's a fact of sport for everyone, so I think it's a bit harsh to HATE him for it.
I may not be interested in another sport, may perceive it as a threat to my own, or may even be envious of some aspects of it; but I don't let sport play such a role in my life as to let it consume me with HATE. It is only sport after all.

I don't hate anyone. Still, I can't say I like Scotstown either.

Nice one charlie. Hate the nail on the head there!!!

I'd wrath-er we didn't go down this avenue NKAB.

I was agreeing with you're a-version Charlie but you know what dis-like.

Hates a bit strong but I go with POGs line. It's the Bristish establishment I hate. Not Irish Protestants or English/Welsh people.

Why not replace "Hate the most" with "like the least" on the poll to avoid such misunderstandings and outrage?

Quote"Foreigners", "Immigrants", "Travellers" or even "Blacks" or "Jews"? 

just a small point hope its not too political. the reason none of the above are in the poll is that the didn't come and try and come here murdering,raping, looting pillaging and claiming to to have a god given right to own the plavce and refuse to leave after 800 years
hope this clears that up

Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 07, 2006, 08:03:47 PM
Jesus EG if you think those things amount to a bad reaction you've lived a very sheltered life.  I have had a lot worse said to me (and it's not as if I bring it on myself)  and so has a lot of others.
I think you'll also find when nationalists (for the want of a better word) refer to the "brits" they aren't talking about the protesant/unionist people in the north nor are they talking about ordinary English people  or the scots or the welsh, they are refering the British army and British rule in Ireland.  But I suspect you already knew that.

I have, indeed, been called a hell of a sight worse, but as I indicated earlier, it doesn't "hurt" me in the slightest! What I was alluding to was not the personal nature of any abuse (which on this thread has been unremarkable); rather, it was the implication that I have no "right" to comment or venture an opinion, either because I am not a keen GAA fan, and/or because I hold a different political outlook to the great majority on this Board.
To which I say: "Fair enough", it's a free country. However, as an outsider, it really doesn't project a welcoming image for "non-conformists" and is contrary to the official face of GAA, which likes to think of itself as being open to all.

On your second point ("Brits" = Army/Establishment etc), I'm sorry, but I can't let you get away with that, since it is for me to determine what I am, not you! Now, you may think I'm deluded/ weak/ idiotic/pitiable etc for choosing to characterise myself as "British", but so be it, since that's what I am.
You have no more right to tell me that I am not British, than I would have to tell any of my friends and neighbours in NI that they cannot be Irish (i.e. that they must somehow only be Brits).
Which is really the crux of my whole objection to this thread - when people post that they "Hate the Brits", notwithstanding that it is hardly an entirely serious exercise (since revised), I am merely trying to point out that there are almost one million of their fellow Irishmen and women sharing this island with them, who most decidedly fall within that category.
We were not parachuted in and we're not going to leave; we're every bit as Irish as anyone else, regardless of whether anyone else recognises that, including the GAA.
In fact, the only difference is that politically speaking, we prefer to live in one constituent part of the Union, along with the English, Scots and Welsh.
And as far as I'm concerned, it is a weakness of the GAA that it continues to maintain this "political qualification" (i.e. Irish = Nationalist), into the 21 st Century, when old quarrels may safely be consigned to the history books.

Quote from: Evil Genius on December 08, 2006, 02:02:19 PM

Which is really the crux of my whole objection to this thread - when people post that they "Hate the Brits", notwithstanding that it is hardly an entirely serious exercise (since revised), I am merely trying to point out that there are almost one million of their fellow Irishmen and women sharing this island with them, who most decidedly fall within that category.

and

Quote

We were not parachuted in and we're not going to leave; we're every bit as Irish as anyone else, regardless of whether anyone else recognises that, including the GAA.

Quote

a bit contradictory is it not - professing to be both?

also in my exp- a large slice of English (british) people dont view NI folk as british...
apart from when it comes to gathering up sports teams

I think this thread has become misleading with the 'brits' category put in as a partial jest
the question is I believe - 'who in GAA circles do you not like'....
even though it doesnt specifically state that (but being on the GAA discussion part, I dont think that anyone should be reading anything else into it )

You are thinking way too much into this thread Evil Genius.
You made your points and they are noted, now let it go.

Quote from: armaghniac on December 07, 2006, 09:18:25 PM

QuoteIs the GAA really so "parochial", metaphorically as well as literally

the GAA is somewhat "parochial" in the best sense of the word. The GAA is based on people who have pride in their place. This doesn't fit well people who don't identify with the place they are associated with. Irish people who regard themselves as British, French or whatever, despite having no particular connection to Britain or France, have a rather different attitude than GAA members generally. You can criticise the GAA for its devotion to its founding values, although in fact the GAA evolves all of the time.  However a community who think of themselves as British because their ancestors came from Britain 400 years ago can hardly throw stones in regard to concern with outmoded values.

I'm sorry, Armaghniac, but you don't seem to have any understanding of the concept of "Britishness". It is not a question of ancestry, or ancestral birthplace i.e. I am British because my ancestors came from what is now Great Britain.
Such a construction is so shot full of contradictions, weaknesses and anachronisms as to be irrelevant to the present situation.
For example, if my ancestors came over at the Plantation 400 years ago, is that too recent(!) to count as against someone whose ancestors came over with the Normans? Or the Vikings? Or, dare I say it, with the Gaelic tribes who marched westwards from Central Europe, until they arrived in Ireland, where they assimilated the earlier inhabitants they found there?
What if one side of my family is "Planter", but the other Gael? Where do e.g. Gerry Adams or John Hume, with their impeccably Planter names, come in? How does "Britishness by ancestry" work when many of the ancestors in question migrated from England or Scotland to Ireland a century before the Union even existed?

Quite simply, I am an Irishman (more specifically a Northern Irishman) who is British, since my birthplace is one of the four constituent parts of the United Kingdom. This does not make me "English" (or Scottish or Welsh, for that matter), nor does it make me any less Irish, either.

Now you and others may not wish to buy into this concept - fair enough, that is your right. But the self-same right which you would proclaim not to be British, despite coming from part of the UK (Armagh, I assume), is exactly the same right that I use when I say I am British. I just happen to be one of those Brits who comes from NI, as opposed to E, S or W.

In this sense, it is no different from e.g. a Frenchman proclaiming his "Frenchness" has in no way been diminished or altered by virtue of France being part of the European Union (there's that word again). Or somebody from the Irish Republic, or even an Irishman from Northern Ireland, being any less "Irish".

Which is where the GAA comes back in. As far as that organisation is concerned, the only kind of Irishman or woman they recognise is one who also espouses a Nationalist, or Republican, political outlook. Fair enough, it is entitled to do so, if it wishes.
Personally, I think it a pretty "poor show" for a sporting organisation to cling onto such an anachronistic position into the 21st Century, when just about every other sport in the world has moved far beyond such parochial considerations, but so be it.
Of course, until it faces up to this, it is going find it extremely difficult to attract the other (Irish) tradition on this island. Personally, I accept it is entitled to remain this way if it wishes, whether out of antagonism or indifference.
However, I just wish they would stop trying to proclaim that they are an organisation for all Irish people. By their very Constitution and ethos, by their practices of identifying themselves with partisan political figures (e.g. stadia, clubs, tournaments etc named after contemporary Republican activists) and by their determination to cling onto the principles of their 19th Century founders in the face of contemporary demands, they prove daily that this simply is not the case.

Which is only the point I was trying to make when I took mild exception to the Poll which sought to have a wee dig at the "Brits".

Anyhow, its Friday afternoon and I should be starting the build up to joining my fellow Irishmen and women when they go to stick one onto a bunch of Brits on the rugby field at Reading tomorrow (Ulster v London Irish, to be precise!)  ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: rosnarun on December 08, 2006, 10:23:32 AM

Quote"Foreigners", "Immigrants", "Travellers" or even "Blacks" or "Jews"? 

just a small point hope its not too political. the reason none of the above are in the poll is that the didn't come and try and come here murdering,raping, looting pillaging and claiming to to have a god given right to own the plavce and refuse to leave after 800 years
hope this clears that up

As I indicated in my previous post, I am now to busy to respond to this. I suggest you take it up with Dermot McMorrough.  ::)

Anyhow, I hope your weekend is a good one, whichever century it's in... ;)

Thank jesus.

According to the poll "the brits" have shot to number one at 42% !

"by their practices of identifying themselves with partisan political figures (e.g. stadia, clubs, tournaments etc named after contemporary Republican activists) and by their determination to cling onto the principles of their 19th Century founders in the face of contemporary demands, they prove daily that this simply is not the case"

Ok, so should we change the stadium names and club names to suit you?

And while we are at it should we change the names of the streets and train stations named after these Irish heroes?

Please also explain the "contemporary demands" they are ignoring. And please for the love of god keep it short!

Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 08, 2006, 02:07:22 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on December 08, 2006, 02:02:19 PM

Which is really the crux of my whole objection to this thread - when people post that they "Hate the Brits", notwithstanding that it is hardly an entirely serious exercise (since revised), I am merely trying to point out that there are almost one million of their fellow Irishmen and women sharing this island with them, who most decidedly fall within that category.

and

Quote

We were not parachuted in and we're not going to leave; we're every bit as Irish as anyone else, regardless of whether anyone else recognises that, including the GAA.

Quote

a bit contradictory is it not - professing to be both?

Not at all. Would you tell an Englishman he is not British? Or a Scotsman or Welshman? (Well, some of them, anyhow!)

You are Irish. Does that mean you are not also European?

It's really a very simple concept: I am British by virtue of being a citizen of the Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I am Irish by virtue of coming from Ireland. And more specifically I am Northern Irish, or an Ulsterman, if you prefer. On which note, I've got an appointment with a weekend's drinking which i don't want to miss!

Enjoy your weekend.  :)

QuoteIndeed, there are very many "up North" playing GAA sports; it's just that very few of them come from the Unionist community (or "the "Brits" as they are sometimes known). Perhaps one of the reasons for this might be that they have somehow concluded that they might be "hated" by certain elements from within the GAA Community?

I'm from the north and no one I know has ever called a protestant or unionist 'a brit'. When the term brits is used by a nationalist in the north it refers almost exclusively to the english. Indeed I would consider most protestants or unionistas as Irish although I accept you may or may not have the same viewpoint.  Could it be evil genius that you're a bit of a mope?

Quote from: OdoSkimodo on December 08, 2006, 03:10:54 PM
I'm from the north and no one I know has ever called a protestant or unionist 'a brit'. When the term brits is used by a nationalist in the north it refers almost exclusively to the english. Indeed I would consider most protestants or unionistas as Irish although I accept you may or may not have the same viewpoint.  Could it be evil genius that you're a bit of a mope?

If I called my cat a dog, would that make it bark?

I am from NI, which means I am Irish and I am British. I do not feel "oppressed" by that; nor does it give me the right to "oppress" others who may not be so.
You may call me what you like, since I am now about to open my first can of stout of the weekend and I no longer give a flying one!  ;D

Nice to see you checking out without answering my question  ::)

"Please also explain the "contemporary demands" they are ignoring. And please for the love of god keep it short!"

Quote from: Evil Genius on December 08, 2006, 03:04:52 PM

You are Irish. Does that mean you are not also European?

Ireland is part of Europe. Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain.

It's a poll which you claim says that a significant proportion of gaa people hate our unionist friends. This I say is wrong because a brit to a gaa person is an englishman (sweeping statement but I would say fairly accurate). I am not denying you the right to be what you want, just asking you not to cry over milk that hasn't been spilt

QuoteIf I called my cat a dog, would that make it bark?

By the way you can call your cat lolita and violate it if you want for all i care ;)

Quote from: Evil Genius on December 08, 2006, 03:04:52 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 08, 2006, 02:07:22 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on December 08, 2006, 02:02:19 PM

Which is really the crux of my whole objection to this thread - when people post that they "Hate the Brits", notwithstanding that it is hardly an entirely serious exercise (since revised), I am merely trying to point out that there are almost one million of their fellow Irishmen and women sharing this island with them, who most decidedly fall within that category.

and

Quote

We were not parachuted in and we're not going to leave; we're every bit as Irish as anyone else, regardless of whether anyone else recognises that, including the GAA.

Quote

a bit contradictory is it not - professing to be both?

Not at all. Would you tell an Englishman he is not British? Or a Scotsman or Welshman? (Well, some of them, anyhow!)

You are Irish. Does that mean you are not also European?

It's really a very simple concept: I am British by virtue of being a citizen of the Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I am Irish by virtue of coming from Ireland. And more specifically I am Northern Irish, or an Ulsterman, if you prefer.

`

::)
apples and oranges - if you'll excuse the pun

QuoteIf I called my cat a dog, would that make it bark?

I am from NI, which means I am Irish and I am British.

So, you are from NI, this does not make you British. NI is in Union with Britain, this should not mean that it becomes Britain. Ireland is in the European Union with Italy, it is not Italian.

Quote from: Evil Genius on December 08, 2006, 02:02:19 PM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 07, 2006, 08:03:47 PM
Jesus EG if you think those things amount to a bad reaction you've lived a very sheltered life.  I have had a lot worse said to me (and it's not as if I bring it on myself)  and so has a lot of others.
I think you'll also find when nationalists (for the want of a better word) refer to the "brits" they aren't talking about the protesant/unionist people in the north nor are they talking about ordinary English people  or the scots or the welsh, they are refering the British army and British rule in Ireland.  But I suspect you already knew that.

I have, indeed, been called a hell of a sight worse, but as I indicated earlier, it doesn't "hurt" me in the slightest! What I was alluding to was not the personal nature of any abuse (which on this thread has been unremarkable); rather, it was the implication that I have no "right" to comment or venture an opinion, either because I am not a keen GAA fan, and/or because I hold a different political outlook to the great majority on this Board.
To which I say: "Fair enough", it's a free country. However, as an outsider, it really doesn't project a welcoming image for "non-conformists" and is contrary to the official face of GAA, which likes to think of itself as being open to all.

On your second point ("Brits" = Army/Establishment etc), I'm sorry, but I can't let you get away with that, since it is for me to determine what I am, not you! Now, you may think I'm deluded/ weak/ idiotic/pitiable etc for choosing to characterise myself as "British", but so be it, since that's what I am.
You have no more right to tell me that I am not British, than I would have to tell any of my friends and neighbours in NI that they cannot be Irish (i.e. that they must somehow only be Brits).
Which is really the crux of my whole objection to this thread - when people post that they "Hate the Brits", notwithstanding that it is hardly an entirely serious exercise (since revised), I am merely trying to point out that there are almost one million of their fellow Irishmen and women sharing this island with them, who most decidedly fall within that category.
We were not parachuted in and we're not going to leave; we're every bit as Irish as anyone else, regardless of whether anyone else recognises that, including the GAA.
In fact, the only difference is that politically speaking, we prefer to live in one constituent part of the Union, along with the English, Scots and Welsh.
And as far as I'm concerned, it is a weakness of the GAA that it continues to maintain this "political qualification" (i.e. Irish = Nationalist), into the 21 st Century, when old quarrels may safely be consigned to the history books.

Where did I try to determine what you are? I couldn't care less if you consider yourself to be British, Duth, French or whatever else.  I tried to explain to you what nationalists meant when they talked about the "brits".  Are you having trouble understanding that?

Quote from: dubnut on December 08, 2006, 02:58:56 PM
"by their practices of identifying themselves with partisan political figures (e.g. stadia, clubs, tournaments etc named after contemporary Republican activists) and by their determination to cling onto the principles of their 19th Century founders in the face of contemporary demands, they prove daily that this simply is not the case"

Ok, so should we change the stadium names and club names to suit you?

And while we are at it should we change the names of the streets and train stations named after these Irish heroes?

Please also explain the "contemporary demands" they are ignoring. And please for the love of god keep it short!

Seeing as you seemed desperate for a reply on Friday pm (when I was desperate for a drink!), here goes:

The GAA may name clubs, tournaments & stadia after whoever they like. And when they name them after contemporary paramilitary killers and the like, people will react accordingly. I daresay the same would apply for you if your local soccer or rugby club were to be named after e.g. Michael Stone or Billy Wright.
Personally, I would have nothing to do with any such practices in any sport, since I deplore the mixing of sport and politics where avoidable, especially in a place like NI, where wounds are still raw for people on all sides.

As for Irish Street and Station names, the Government of the Republic can name them after whoever the hell they like, since that is a political decision and has nothing to do with sport generally, or the GAA specifically.

As for my reference to "contemporary demands", I was referring to the notion that in the 21st Century, it is inappropriate to mix sport and poilitics, especially in Ireland, where politics has caused such division and mistrust, whereas sport has the potential to bring together people of all backgrounds in comradeship and understanding.
All sports with a long history have developed and moved on over the decades. For example, Baseball had segregated Leagues right up until the 1950's (I think); South African rugby rigidly enforced the Apartheid system; Rugby Union worldwide held on to (a sham) Amateurism officially, long after it had broken down unofficially; English cricket insisted on Captains and Administrators being "Gentlemen" (amateurs), in control of mere "Players" (professionals) and Soccer, too, has any number of embarrassing episodes in its past, which needed sweeping away.
Whereas, with GAA, whilst I fully understand the importance and emotional hold its historical mix of politics and sport once held, I feel strongly that to maintain this idea that Irish games are really only for Irish people of one particular political persuasion is an anachronism that desreves to be consigned to the museum at Croke Park.

I hope that was short enough for you; when faced with the choice between giving such issues a considered and reasoned answer, or a mere "soundbite", I prefer the former.

Quote from: Turlough O Carolan on December 08, 2006, 03:22:53 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on December 08, 2006, 03:04:52 PM

You are Irish. Does that mean you are not also European?

Ireland is part of Europe. Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK, however. The clue is in the full title: "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".
This also explains why NI is commonly held to be "British": technically speaking, it might more properly be termed "United Kingdomish", but that would be a bit silly.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 08, 2006, 03:29:06 PM
::)
apples and oranges - if you'll excuse the pun

I understand the pun, but not the analogy. As e.g. an Italian, you can be part of the European Union and therefore a European, whilst remaining an Italian.
I am an Irishman - more specifically a Northern Irishman - who is also a member of the United Kingdom and therefore British ("United Kingdomish"!). I remain Irish.

Quote from: armaghniac on December 08, 2006, 03:53:57 PM
So, you are from NI, this does not make you British. NI is in Union with Britain, this should not mean that it becomes Britain. Ireland is in the European Union with Italy, it is not Italian.

You clearly don't understand the difference between a Union and an Alliance.
NI is a member of the UK, just the same as England, Scotland and Wales. As a Northern Irishman, I am not English, Scots or Welsh and none of those is Northern Irish. By the same token, a Scot is not Welsh or English, or vice versa.
However, all of us are British (should we so wish to define ourselves).

Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 08, 2006, 07:05:03 PM
Where did I try to determine what you are? I couldn't care less if you consider yourself to be British, Duth, French or whatever else.  I tried to explain to you what nationalists meant when they talked about the "brits".  Are you having trouble understanding that?

When an Irish nationalist starts sounding off about "the hateful Brits", he/she might actually choose more accurate terminology, otherwise, a million of his/her neighbours on this island might take exception.
It's a bit like me spouting off about hating GAA fans, when I really only mean those from County ... (well, I'll let you fill in the missing word as you choose)
Are you having trouble understanding that?

yes you can be British and be from nothern ireland but what it makes you is either a traitor to Ireland or else Part of the invading english Take your pick

Evil I have been reading most of your posts. Got the jist of what your saying. I have a suggestion, there is a GAA club in south Belfast called St Brigid's. Now this club is relatively young and would be seen as a very broad minded club. For example I dont think they have a permanent pitch so the local ruby club Harlequins has allowed them to use their pitches. It seems there is quite a partnership developing between the two clubs. Now if you have a genuine interest in tasting GAA, this sounds like the place for you to wet your feet so to speak. Certainly not as intimidating as Erins Own Cargin or Kevin Lynchs Dungiven. I think you'll get a warm welcome and nobody will give a hoot whether your British, Irish or Northern Irish....now dont say your not from Belfast, sure its only a short drive now for someone like yourself to assess what the GAA is truely all about. Your safe there is no indoctrination ceremonies  

Brilliant Max, not very likely though  :D :D

Quote from: Maximus Marillius on December 11, 2006, 03:59:10 PM
Evil I have been reading most of your posts. Got the jist of what your saying. I have a suggestion, there is a GAA club in south Belfast called St Brigid's. Now this club is relatively young and would be seen as a very broad minded club. For example I dont think they have a permanent pitch so the local ruby club Harlequins has allowed them to use their pitches. It seems there is quite a partnership developing between the two clubs. Now if you have a genuine interest in tasting GAA, this sounds like the place for you to wet your feet so to speak. Certainly not as intimidating as Erins Own Cargin or Kevin Lynchs Dungiven. I think you'll get a warm welcome and nobody will give a hoot whether your British, Irish or Northern Irish....now dont say your not from Belfast, sure its only a short drive now for someone like yourself to assess what the GAA is truely all about. Your safe there is no indoctrination ceremonies  

I've no doubt that every word you say is true, Max. One of the things I have learned about GAA from this Board (and elsewhere) is that the organisation accommodates many different types of club and member, the great majority of whom are only there for the sport and the crack.
But I would ask you this, don't you think it an indictment that someone from my community should have to drive some way from their local parish in order to be certain of obtaining "a warm welcome", where "nobody will give a hoot" whether I'm British/Irish/N.Irish etc?
If, for example, someone from a Nationalist background were to express an interest in taking up GAA, would you have any difficulty in simply pointing him/her to the nearest club? Indeed, if it were someone from an "ethnic minority" or immigrant community, would you suggest he/she drive half way across the country? Of course not.
If we were to take your suggestion to its logical conclusion, we would all end up (in parts of the North, at least) with a kind of "apartheid", consisting of those clubs like St. Brigids, which may be entirely relaxed about such things, and those clubs (Kevin Lynch Dungiven perhaps?), where the "welcome" might be more that to be expected from the likes of Rosnarun:

Posted on: Today at 03:57:04 PMPosted by: rosnarun 
"yes you can be British and be from nothern ireland but what it makes you is either a traitor to Ireland or else Part of the invading english Take your pick"

P.S. I'm rather glad that my nearest club is not in Dungiven:
(From earlier this year)
Kevin Lynch's commemoration takes place on Sunday, July 30 in Dungiven. People are asked to assemble at The Grove at 12 noon.

Republican Sinn Féin will hold a commemoration in Dungiven on Saturday at the chapel gates at 7pm. The oration will be delivered by party president Ruairí Ó Brádaigh.

On Saturday afternoon, Kevin Lynch Hurling Club's minor team will play Ballycastle while the intermediate side will take on Cumann na Fuinseoige from Twinbrook in Belfast.

The opening ceremony for the new field starts at 2pm on Sunday and will be followed by a challenge hurling match between Kevin Lynch senior team and the current Kilkenny county senior champions, James Stephens.
The famous Kilkenny club, which added the 2005 all-Ireland club crown to its previous two national titles, will travel specially to Dungiven for the opening of Kevin Lynch Park. A commemorative booklet will be on sale in conjunction with the opening.

On Saturday evening Kevin Lynch and the Irish Hunger Strike will be launched at Saint Canice's GAA club, Dungiven, at 5pm. Martin McGuinness will be guest speaker.

Sharing the Platform Party at the naming ceremony were: Nicky Brennan, Michael Greenan and  Gerry Adams, as well as local figures "associated with" the INLA.

dont come into a barn and then start complaining about the smell of muck . you deliberatly come on to a GAA web site to antagonise and then claim not to feel welcome
the internet is full of  trolls like you .

Your points are well written and in great detail Evil Genius, and politely made.
Which fools some people as to your intentions.

"local figures associated with the INLA"
Are you going to back that up, who? Associated how?
Thats a vague point but a mischievous one.

"But I would ask you this, don't you think it an indictment that someone from my community should have to drive some way from their local parish in order to be certain of obtaining "a warm welcome", where "nobody will give a hoot" whether I'm British/Irish/N.Irish etc?
If, for example, someone from a Nationalist background were to express an interest in taking up GAA, would you have any difficulty in simply pointing him/her to the nearest club? Indeed, if it were someone from an "ethnic minority" or immigrant community, would you suggest he/she drive half way across the country? Of course not"

Thats the North for you. Not the GAA. Do you think you would be ok until you walked into the GAA club??!??
If I were to walk into Windsor park with a big Dublin accent and got attacked I wouldnt blame "soccer" as an entire organisation.

Answer me one question, should any stand or ground named after a 1916 or civil war hero have its name changed?
Thats a straight forward one which yes or no will do nicely.

having gone off an a huge tangent I fail to see what you are talking about evil person!

I think you are not discussing the point of the thread who do some people not like - is in relation to GAA and the joke
was in adding the token category 'Brits' in it.

when people think of 'brits' they are almost entirely thinking of 'English'
which is how most English people also think.
A lot of Welsh couldnt care less and a large maybe even 50% of Scots do not want to be considered british.

the united kingdowm of great Britain AND NI would indicate that NI is not actually British but us a state on a par with it and it all comes under the remit of the united Kingdom.
How you profess anything otherwise is highly amusing !

Anyhow, back to the point..
If any non national, non-nationalist and even prod went to play hurling with Kevin Lynch's Dungiven, I an 99% sure these people would be accepted and welcomed into the club
I would say you are being very prejudicial here by saying they wouldnt be!
This welcoming would go for more or less any GAA club.

If people wont join them for reasons of their own prejudices - thats hardly the fault of the GAA
::)

Quote from: rosnarun on December 11, 2006, 05:13:50 PM
dont come into a barn and then start complaining about the smell of muck . you deliberatly come on to a GAA web site to antagonise and then claim not to feel welcome
the internet is full of  trolls like you .

As I have tried throughout my posts to point out, ultimately, the GAA may behave how it likes. This includes associating itself with controversial contemporary paramilitary figures by the naming of clubs, stadia and tournaments etc.
However, what I do object to is the notion that Gaelic sports are open to all, when such activities clearly deter one fifth (approx) of the population of Ireland.
And these aspects are not merely symbolic, either. When it comes to its Rulebook, we may contrast the GAA ban on "foreign" sports being strictly enforced when the Omagh Bomb Charity applied to hold a fundraising soccer match in the Omagh GAA grounds (permission denied), as against the recent inability to enforce the rule against political demonstrations over the recent Hunger Strike Commemorations at Casement.

Btw, do your fellow GAA fans appreciate your choice of metaphor ("smells", "barns" and "muck") to describe your Association?  ;)

Quote from: dubnut on December 11, 2006, 05:24:18 PM
Thats the North for you. Not the GAA. Do you think you would be ok until you walked into the GAA club??!??
If I were to walk into Windsor park with a big Dublin accent and got attacked I wouldnt blame "soccer" as an entire organisation.

Answer me one question, should any stand or ground named after a 1916 or civil war hero have its name changed?
Thats a straight forward one which yes or no will do nicely.

I would not expect to be "attacked" upon walking into any GAA club. Nor would I provoke any such attack by expressing my personal political opinions, either. But that is the problem; since at certain GAA clubs, by virtue simply of my Membership, I would be endorsing figures and events which have a clear political character (and a somewhat militant character, at that). I know of no other sport in Ireland which forces me into, or tolerates, such a situation.

As for the chances of your being attacked in Windsor Park for your big Dublin accent, I think it's safe to say you'd be OK, since it never did Pat Fenlon any harm when he was winning an Irish League Champions medal with Linfield in 1994! In fact, "Billy", as the fans nicknamed him (!), was immensely popular! Likewise, I don't think your GAA membership would be any great barrier, either, seeing as how Linfield proved happy to provide their local West Belfast Camogie Club with facilities, when they were in a fix recently!
However, should anything happen to you, I would have no hesitation in condemning it without reservation, as indeed I would any incidents, images or icons of a clearly partisan nature associated with my sport.

As for associations with 1916 or the Civil War, whilst I may privately find such references contrary to my own tastes, I also accept that that was all long before my era, reflecting as it does, different people in different times. Therefore, I would accept that as being part of the history of the game.
I do not, however, consider that sport should be associated with modern-day "activists", whether "Loyalist" or Republican.
(Btw, if that answer is too long for you, you can take it as a simple "No")

Quote from: Evil Genius on December 11, 2006, 03:34:56 PM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 08, 2006, 07:05:03 PM
Where did I try to determine what you are? I couldn't care less if you consider yourself to be British, Duth, French or whatever else.  I tried to explain to you what nationalists meant when they talked about the "brits".  Are you having trouble understanding that?

When an Irish nationalist starts sounding off about "the hateful Brits", he/she might actually choose more accurate terminology, otherwise, a million of his/her neighbours on this island might take exception.
It's a bit like me spouting off about hating GAA fans, when I really only mean those from County ... (well, I'll let you fill in the missing word as you choose)
Are you having trouble understanding that?

I couldn't care less who takes exception to anything I say, if you're stupid enough or so intent on being the victim that you take offence that's your own problem.  Having lived and worked in England I know plenty of British people,  one's without idenity crisis, who had no trouble understanding my (or other Irish people's) dislike of the British and who understood perfectly what I meant when I'd say so. 
But you go ahead and play the victim, act astonished when an Irish nationalist states they don't like Britain.

QuoteI would not expect to be "attacked" upon walking into any GAA club. Nor would I provoke any such attack by expressing my personal political opinions, either. But that is the problem; since at certain GAA clubs, by virtue simply of my Membership, I would be endorsing figures and events which have a clear political character (and a somewhat militant character, at that). I know of no other sport in Ireland which forces me into, or tolerates, such a situation.

What exactly do you think you'd be endorsing?  There are AGMs where you're free to voice your concerns or objections.

Quote
But I would ask you this, don't you think it an indictment that someone from my community should have to drive some way from their local parish in order to be certain of obtaining "a warm welcome", where "nobody will give a hoot" whether I'm British/Irish/N.Irish etc?

Go to the club in your local parish then.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 11, 2006, 05:34:05 PM
Anyhow, back to the point..
If any non national, non-nationalist and even prod went to play hurling with Kevin Lynch's Dungiven, I an 99% sure these people would be accepted and welcomed into the club
I would say you are being very prejudicial here by saying they wouldnt be!
This welcoming would go for more or less any GAA club.

If people wont join them for reasons of their own prejudices - thats hardly the fault of the GAA
::)

You may well be right about the reception at Kevin Lynch, Dungiven, but that is hardly the point. Lynch was an active member of the INLA. I would no more wish to be associated with that organisation than I would with the LVF or UFF, by e.g. attending a soccer match at "Michael Stone Memorial FC", or "Billy Wright United FC" (not that such clubs would ever be tolerated by the IFA). Would you?

(Come to think of it, seeing as Billy Wright is reputed to have played GAA when a boy growing up in South Armagh, would you be happy to see a GAA club named after him? No? I thought not...)

Quote
You may well be right about the reception at Kevin Lynch, Dungiven, but that is hardly the point. Lynch was an active member of the INLA. I would no more wish to be associated with that organisation than I would with the LVF or UFF,

So are you saying anyone that's a member of the Kevin Lynch club is "associated" with the INLA?

Quote(Come to think of it, seeing as Billy Wright is reputed to have played GAA when a boy growing up in South Armagh, would you be happy to see a GAA club named after him?

I couldnt care less.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 11, 2006, 06:37:15 PM
I couldn't care less who takes exception to anything I say, if you're stupid enough or so intent on being the victim that you take offence that's your own problem.  Having lived and worked in England I know plenty of British people,  one's without idenity crisis, who had no trouble understanding my (or other Irish people's) dislike of the British and who understood perfectly what I meant when I'd say so. 
But you go ahead and play the victim, act astonished when an Irish nationalist states they don't like Britain.

QuoteI would not expect to be "attacked" upon walking into any GAA club. Nor would I provoke any such attack by expressing my personal political opinions, either. But that is the problem; since at certain GAA clubs, by virtue simply of my Membership, I would be endorsing figures and events which have a clear political character (and a somewhat militant character, at that). I know of no other sport in Ireland which forces me into, or tolerates, such a situation.

What exactly do you think you'd be endorsing?  There are AGMs where you're free to voice your concerns or objections.

Quote
But I would ask you this, don't you think it an indictment that someone from my community should have to drive some way from their local parish in order to be certain of obtaining "a warm welcome", where "nobody will give a hoot" whether I'm British/Irish/N.Irish etc?

Go to the club in your local parish then.

This was not a simple case of "Irish Nationalists stating that they don't like the English"; such a situation neither "astonishes" me, nor makes me feel in any way "victimised". Nor do I suffer from any "identity crisis", either, thank you very much.

However, your revisionist attempt to recharacterise the nature of the Poll is clearly disingenuous. What caused me originally to take exception was a Poll whereby GAA fans stated, however humourously or light-heartedly, that they "hate the Brits".
All I was did essentially was to try to point out three things:
1. The epithet "Brits" applies not only to those people from the other side of the Irish Sea who speak with an English accent; rather, it also applies, "hateful" or otherwise, to around one million of your fellow islanders;
2. This "blindspot" precisely demonstrates just how little comprehension some GAA supporters have of "the other million";
3. The combination of ignorance, indifference and occasional antagonism towards your fellow islanders explains exactly how and why the GAA only appears to recognise one type of islander as being truly "Irish" i.e. those who endorse the "right" kind of politics.

All of which, I repeat, is fair enough - I don't expect for one moment, never mind demand, that the GAA should accede to me when determining what sort of organisation it should be.

However, neither should that organisation be "astonished", or feel "victimised" when I and others deplore it for mixing politics with sport, at the same time as it claims to be open equally to all.

(On a more specific note, if Kevin Lynch, Dungiven were to be my local GAA club, what reception do you think I would receive if I were to pay my subscription, join and then at the next AGM, propose that the club name be changed to something less "partisan", on the basis that mixing politics with sport should be avoided wherever possible?  ???)

"As for the chances of your being attacked in Windsor Park for your big Dublin accent, I think it's safe to say you'd be OK, since it never did Pat Fenlon any harm when he was winning an Irish League Champions medal with Linfield in 1994! In fact, "Billy", as the fans nicknamed him (!), was immensely popular!"

Pat Fenlon wasnt mingling in the crowd! A mate of mine played in the North a few years back and got all sorts of vicious vile abuse in windsor park for being a "dirty f**king taig"

Back up your INLA comment by the way!

p.s. dont be so patronising with your posts, it doesnt make you look clever.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 11, 2006, 06:50:33 PM

So are you saying anyone that's a member of the Kevin Lynch club is "associated" with the INLA?

Quote(Come to think of it, seeing as Billy Wright is reputed to have played GAA when a boy growing up in South Armagh, would you be happy to see a GAA club named after him?

I couldnt care less.

Re your first point: Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying; I fail to see how it could be any different  ::)

As for Billy Wright GAA club, perhaps you dont mind being associated with murderous, drug-dealing sectarian bigots like him or Kevin Lynch, but I do. And that counts equally in the context of GAA, soccer, rugby or any other sport.  >:(

Evil Genius, I'll tell you how you can prove you are not just here on the wind up, dont post again on this thread.

If you continue into an 8th or 9th page it just proves my earlier points about you.

And the smug patronising language makes you look like an ass, not clever.
But no doubt you will want the last word  ::)

Quote from: dubnut on December 11, 2006, 07:20:00 PM
Evil Genius, I'll tell you how you can prove you are not just here on the wind up, dont post again on this thread.

If you continue into an 8th or 9th page it just proves my earlier points about you.

And the smug patronising language makes you look like an ass, not clever.
But no doubt you will want the last word  ::)

Yes.

QuoteHowever, your revisionist attempt to recharacterise the nature of the Poll is clearly disingenuous. What caused me originally to take exception was a Poll whereby GAA fans stated, however humourously or light-heartedly, that they "hate the Brits".
All I was did essentially was to try to point out three things:
1. The epithet "Brits" applies not only to those people from the other side of the Irish Sea who speak with an English accent; rather, it also applies, "hateful" or otherwise, to around one million of your fellow islanders;
2. This "blindspot" precisely demonstrates just how little comprehension some GAA supporters have of "the other million";
3. The combination of ignorance, indifference and occasional antagonism towards your fellow islanders explains exactly how and why the GAA only appears to recognise one type of islander as being truly "Irish" i.e. those who endorse the "right" kind of politics.

Or it could be that, as I've tired to explain, irish nationalist's definition of "brits" in the context that it was used is different to yours.
But no, that would be to simple of an explanation and it wouldnt give you a chance to play the victim.

Quote
(On a more specific note, if Kevin Lynch, Dungiven were to be my local GAA club, what reception do you think I would receive if I were to pay my subscription, join and then at the next AGM, propose that the club name be changed to something less "partisan", on the basis that mixing politics with sport should be avoided wherever possible?  Huh)

I would say if you raised the issue there would be a debate, you may or may not receive support but after it you might understand why the club was named after Kevin Lynch.

This topic is already 8 pages long and may be good for another few yet if present indications are anything to go by.
I don't want too see anyone being denied a good discussion, or row or argy bargy or call it what you will but the subject matter currently under discussion has gone decidedly off-topic  since about the end of page two in fact..
What we are now getting is quite an able presentation by the main poster, Evil Genius, of how it feels to be both Irish and British simultaneously and of how he and others like him regard the GAA.
That may appear as over simplification but any reasonable person, on reading the last six pages of this thread, may very well come to the same conclusion.
The poll asks participants to indicate which of six options they like least and the second listed was the British Establishment. Now, this is a poll on a GAA board and the person setting the poll might reasonably infer that the vast majority of viewers would understand what is meant by the British Establishment and, in this context, it does have a pretty narrow, specific meaning. For starters it does not refer to the non-GAA ((loyalist) people of Northern Ireland.
When I think of the British Establishment I bring to mind Colonel Forde of Bloody Sunday fame or Maggie Thatcher and one could include much of the media and really the list is a long one.
My point is that most poll participants will immediately know the people I am referring to and I do say that this is what, or who, I had in mind when I picked the second option.
I do not think the poll was structured to represent an attack on the people of Northern Ireland who broadly share EG's point of view and I certainly have seen no evidence on this post or elsewhere that GAA followers, as a body, feels it can happily live without the interest of one million Irish people, who just don't happen to share their sporting interests.
I also don't feel that all loyalist people have the same developed sense of Britishness as EG does; I have stood shoulder to shoulder with good decent Irishmen, who also happened to be professed Orangemen, on the terraces of Landsdowne Road as Ireland faced up to the common enemy and I have heard them bawl out the words of the National Anthem too!
Really, I do have many sincere good friends in the North and apart from a period leading up to every Twalfth and in the days afterwards I never have sensed any appreciable change in their demeanour.  8) 8)
I may be half-joking here but I am deadly serious when I say that many people who feel a sense of being British also have a sense of betrayal and insecurity, as if the protestations of loyalty no longer evoke the same sense of bonding and support it once did. Obviously I am not speaking for the whole of the loyalist people of Northern Ireland here but I do know enough of its rugby confraternity to say there is a case to be made.
I'd go further and state that many such people would blame the British Establishment for this and would share my view that the view from that quarter of all of us who share this island is one of studied indifference and condescension.
I'd gladly discuss this further buy in my view this is not the forum to do so.

How is anyone who is a member of Kevin Lynch's club associated with the INLA?

Quote from: Evil Genius on December 11, 2006, 07:12:21 PM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on December 11, 2006, 06:50:33 PM

So are you saying anyone that's a member of the Kevin Lynch club is "associated" with the INLA?

Quote(Come to think of it, seeing as Billy Wright is reputed to have played GAA when a boy growing up in South Armagh, would you be happy to see a GAA club named after him?

I couldnt care less.

Re your first point: Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying; I fail to see how it could be any different  ::)

As for Billy Wright GAA club, perhaps you dont mind being associated with murderous, drug-dealing sectarian bigots like him or Kevin Lynch, but I do. And that counts equally in the context of GAA, soccer, rugby or any other sport.  >:(

its astonishing to see someone with their head purposely stuck in the sand like this evil chappie...

how about the GAA retiring all names found offensive to the enghlish 'KEVIN LYNCH' 'PEARSES' ect  if the english decommisson all clubs and associations with names like  'ROYAL' 'HER MAJESTYS'S ' ' THE QUEENS VERY OWN'  ect ect ect.

Quote from: Lar Naparka on December 11, 2006, 08:24:27 PM
The poll asks participants to indicate which of six options they like least and the second listed was the British Establishment. Now, this is a poll on a GAA board and the person setting the poll might reasonably infer that the vast majority of viewers would understand what is meant by the British Establishment and, in this context, it does have a pretty narrow, specific meaning. For starters it does not refer to the non-GAA ((loyalist) people of Northern Ireland.
When I think of the British Establishment I bring to mind Colonel Forde of Bloody Sunday fame or Maggie Thatcher and one could include much of the media and really the list is a long one.
My point is that most poll participants will immediately know the people I am referring to and I do say that this is what, or who, I had in mind when I picked the second option.
I do not think the poll was structured to represent an attack on the people of Northern Ireland who broadly share EG's point of view and I certainly have seen no evidence on this post or elsewhere that GAA followers, as a body, feels it can happily live without the interest of one million Irish people, who just don't happen to share their sporting interests.
I also don't feel that all loyalist people have the same developed sense of Britishness as EG does; I have stood shoulder to shoulder with good decent Irishmen, who also happened to be professed Orangemen, on the terraces of Landsdowne Road as Ireland faced up to the common enemy and I have heard them bawl out the words of the National Anthem too!
Really, I do have many sincere good friends in the North and apart from a period leading up to every Twalfth and in the days afterwards I never have sensed any appreciable change in their demeanour.  8) 8)
I may be half-joking here but I am deadly serious when I say that many people who feel a sense of being British also have a sense of betrayal and insecurity, as if the protestations of loyalty no longer evoke the same sense of bonding and support it once did. Obviously I am not speaking for the whole of the loyalist people of Northern Ireland here but I do know enough of its rugby confraternity to say there is a case to be made.
I'd go further and state that many such people would blame the British Establishment for this and would share my view that the view from that quarter of all of us who share this island is one of studied indifference and condescension.

An interesting and considered reply, LN. Believe it or not, I, too, share your concern about the length of this thread, but as I said elsewhere, I don't believe in "soundbites" and I have always tried to keep my posts related to the situation as regards the GAA, rather than just letting the debate generate to the usual, never-ending argument over the border etc.
Anyhow, I don't know at what point you came into this debate, but the Poll originally asked: "Who do you hate the most?", with "The Brits" being offered as a choice. This is rather more stark than the present revisionist version, even though it garnered hardly less support than the new version!
I originally posted to point out that by voting for "The Brits", respondants are also voting for a million or so of their fellow Irish people.
Of course, many pointed out, as you do, that this is not what Nationalists generally mean when using the term. However, as a teenager growing up in the Troubles, faced daily with Gerry Adams et alia using guns and bombs in the "Armed Struggle", we knew exactly who the "Brits" in the accompanying cry of "Brits Out" were then: it meant us.
Of course, circumstances have calmed down considerably since those dark days, but whilst even Adams has realised that he has got to find a way of sitting down and dealing with these former enemies - "We've not gone away, either, you know!" - it seems to me that the GAA still fails to recognise our presence, or our legitimacy as Irishmen and women the same as the rest of our fellow islanders.
It is curious that you raise the topic of rugby-supporting Unionists. I, too, have sat or stood to cheer on Ireland at Lansdowne Road as loudly as the next fan. I am also an avid soccer fan, with the NI team being especially dear to me.
However, whilst I see no contradiction or difficulty in supporting either code, I simply cannot feel the same ease in my relationship with the GAA.
Let me explain. Historically, both rugby and soccer were organised on an All-Ireland basis, as it happens with rugby centred in Dublin and soccer in Belfast. At the time of their origins, whilst participation inevitably reflected the political and religious divide in the island to a certain extent, nonetheless, neither had the same overt political ambitions as adopted by the emerging GAA of the period. (Let me add, too, that I do understand why the GAA was more than a mere sporting organisation at that time; also that rugby and soccer were somewhat divided on socio-economic, or class, lines)
Subsequently, at the time of partition, whilst rugby managed to remain organised on al All-Ireland basis, soccer was split following the breakaway in the South of the new "Football Association of the Irish Free State", with the IFA left to continue in the new NI.
This split was sad imo, but for all the difficulties which followed for both codes, they eventually managed to steer an apolitical "path through the minefield" to arrive at the present situation, which is as follows.
Consequently, just as a David Humphries or Andrew Trimble can happily represent the Ireland rugby team at Landsdowne, without in any way being required to deny or "trim" his own political or cultural identity, similarly, a Pat Jennings or a Gerry Armstrong can achieve hero status for the NI soccer team without it making either of them one whit less of a Nationalist or Republican etc (if that's what they wish). This is because ultimately, they are both merely representing their own wee "patch" at their chosen game for 80 or 90 minutes.
Whereas, Gaelic Games still retain the historic "qualification" which requires adherents to sign up not just to sporting rules, but also to a political aspiration of a United Ireland - it's even in the Rulebook.
Of course, I understand entirely that that may be the last thing on the mind of 99.9% of players when they line up for a game. And I accept that in the 26 counties, at least, such considerations have little meaning even when drawn to their attention. (Then again, for people in the South, the "National question" has alrady been settled pretty much to their satisfaction, so it need not have the same significance?)
In parts of the North, however, the situation is different. As Unionists, we are faced with the naming of clubs, stadia and competitions in honour of people seen in GAA circles as heroes of the Armed Struggle for Nationhood, but whom we saw merely as people with bombs and guns who tried to kill us. We see elaborate ceremonies on GAA premises featuring prominent Republican activists (both political and paramilitary), commemorating overtly political events such as the Hunger Strikes, at the same time as Charities like the Omagh Bomb Appeal are turned away.
Nowhere does either soccer or rugby maintain official practices on an anything remotely similar basis.
Of course, that is not to say that everything is "rosy" for Northern Nationalists in the garden or soccer or rugby - far from it.
However, any occurrences as may give offence are nowhere condoned or defended, much less authorised or endorsed, by the organisers of these games, unlike the situation with Gaelic Games.
Ultimately, as an Irishman who is also a sports fan, I am not asking that my own particular political aspirations should be accorded some sort of official "recognition" by the GAA, either in addition to Nationalism, never mind instead of it. Nor would I ask that any of my fellow adherents become in any way less Nationalist or whatever in their views.
All I am saying is that if Gaelic Games are to hold any appeal to people like me, they will have to drop the political baggage which they are still carrying from the 19th Century.
If the organisation cannot, or will not, do so, then that's fine with me, as well; other than a mild irritation that GAA should try to claim that it is a "Sport For All", I am quite happy to let them carry on as at present, whilst I carry on celebrating my Northern Irishness at Windsor Park and my Irishness at Lansdowne*, with all my fellow fans, irrespective of who they are or where they come from!

And in the interests of conserving bandwidth (and keeping other posters awake!), that's just about all I can say on the matter - Over and Out!


* - I'll even do so at Croke Park, should I get a ticket!  ;)

"I, too, share your concern about the length of this thread"

Followed by....

"but as I said elsewhere, I don't believe in "soundbites" and I have always tried to keep my posts related to the situation as regards the GAA, rather than just letting the debate generate to the usual, never-ending argument over the border etc.
Anyhow, I don't know at what point you came into this debate, but the Poll originally asked: "Who do you hate the most?", with "The Brits" being offered as a choice. This is rather more stark than the present revisionist version, even though it garnered hardly less support than the new version!
I originally posted to point out that by voting for "The Brits", respondants are also voting for a million or so of their fellow Irish people.
Of course, many pointed out, as you do, that this is not what Nationalists generally mean when using the term. However, as a teenager growing up in the Troubles, faced daily with Gerry Adams et alia using guns and bombs in the "Armed Struggle", we knew exactly who the "Brits" in the accompanying cry of "Brits Out" were then: it meant us.
Of course, circumstances have calmed down considerably since those dark days, but whilst even Adams has realised that he has got to find a way of sitting down and dealing with these former enemies - "We've not gone away, either, you know!" - it seems to me that the GAA still fails to recognise our presence, or our legitimacy as Irishmen and women the same as the rest of our fellow islanders.
It is curious that you raise the topic of rugby-supporting Unionists. I, too, have sat or stood to cheer on Ireland at Lansdowne Road as loudly as the next fan. I am also an avid soccer fan, with the NI team being especially dear to me.
However, whilst I see no contradiction or difficulty in supporting either code, I simply cannot feel the same ease in my relationship with the GAA.
Let me explain. Historically, both rugby and soccer were organised on an All-Ireland basis, as it happens with rugby centred in Dublin and soccer in Belfast. At the time of their origins, whilst participation inevitably reflected the political and religious divide in the island to a certain extent, nonetheless, neither had the same overt political ambitions as adopted by the emerging GAA of the period. (Let me add, too, that I do understand why the GAA was more than a mere sporting organisation at that time; also that rugby and soccer were somewhat divided on socio-economic, or class, lines)
Subsequently, at the time of partition, whilst rugby managed to remain organised on al All-Ireland basis, soccer was split following the breakaway in the South of the new "Football Association of the Irish Free State", with the IFA left to continue in the new NI.
This split was sad imo, but for all the difficulties which followed for both codes, they eventually managed to steer an apolitical "path through the minefield" to arrive at the present situation, which is as follows.
Consequently, just as a David Humphries or Andrew Trimble can happily represent the Ireland rugby team at Landsdowne, without in any way being required to deny or "trim" his own political or cultural identity, similarly, a Pat Jennings or a Gerry Armstrong can achieve hero status for the NI soccer team without it making either of them one whit less of a Nationalist or Republican etc (if that's what they wish). This is because ultimately, they are both merely representing their own wee "patch" at their chosen game for 80 or 90 minutes.
Whereas, Gaelic Games still retain the historic "qualification" which requires adherents to sign up not just to sporting rules, but also to a political aspiration of a United Ireland - it's even in the Rulebook.
Of course, I understand entirely that that may be the last thing on the mind of 99.9% of players when they line up for a game. And I accept that in the 26 counties, at least, such considerations have little meaning even when drawn to their attention. (Then again, for people in the South, the "National question" has alrady been settled pretty much to their satisfaction, so it need not have the same significance?)
In parts of the North, however, the situation is different. As Unionists, we are faced with the naming of clubs, stadia and competitions in honour of people seen in GAA circles as heroes of the Armed Struggle for Nationhood, but whom we saw merely as people with bombs and guns who tried to kill us. We see elaborate ceremonies on GAA premises featuring prominent Republican activists (both political and paramilitary), commemorating overtly political events such as the Hunger Strikes, at the same time as Charities like the Omagh Bomb Appeal are turned away.
Nowhere does either soccer or rugby maintain official practices on an anything remotely similar basis.
Of course, that is not to say that everything is "rosy" for Northern Nationalists in the garden or soccer or rugby - far from it.
However, any occurrences as may give offence are nowhere condoned or defended, much less authorised or endorsed, by the organisers of these games, unlike the situation with Gaelic Games.
Ultimately, as an Irishman who is also a sports fan, I am not asking that my own particular political aspirations should be accorded some sort of official "recognition" by the GAA, either in addition to Nationalism, never mind instead of it. Nor would I ask that any of my fellow adherents become in any way less Nationalist or whatever in their views.
All I am saying is that if Gaelic Games are to hold any appeal to people like me, they will have to drop the political baggage which they are still carrying from the 19th Century.
If the organisation cannot, or will not, do so, then that's fine with me, as well; other than a mild irritation that GAA should try to claim that it is a "Sport For All", I am quite happy to let them carry on as at present, whilst I carry on celebrating my Northern Irishness at Windsor Park and my Irishness at Lansdowne*, with all my fellow fans, irrespective of who they are or where they come from!

And in the interests of conserving bandwidth (and keeping other posters awake!), that's just about all I can say on the matter - Over and Out!"

Oh the irony!  :o

Lads once again Evil Genius is winning this argument hands down with well thoughtout structured arguments.
He does betray his upbringing in some of his comments

Quotewhilst even Adams has realised

but on the whole from his point of view the argument makes perfect sense, if the GAA is claiming to be a sport for all then they need to stop celebrating, as an organisation, political events which some people would view as atrocities from their backround.

Quote from: Evil Genius on December 12, 2006, 12:40:58 PM
. However, as a teenager growing up in the Troubles, faced daily with Gerry Adams et alia using guns and bombs in the "Armed Struggle", we knew exactly who the "Brits" in the accompanying cry of "Brits Out" were then: it meant us.

Actually it didnt.
Your whole argument is based on a false sense of exclusion if this is the case.

I will say again, that if any protestant wanted to join/play hurling at Kevin Lynch's Hurling club in dungiven county Derry, they would be welcomed.
they would be made to feel VERY welcome.
the issue then is whether someone from that community would want to join.
Ok so the name puts them off.
Funnily similar names do not put off too many nationalists from attending 'Queens University' , Royal Victoria etc etc

if you want to find offense you will - which is what your postulation and 'debate' actually just is.

OK so the name doesnt fit, how about you go to any GAA club with some Irish name - Ruari Og in Cushendall ...
Would you go then?
The GAA does not exclude anyone, the last traces of that were discarded with the rule banning british army and security forces being deleted a couple of years ago.
you are going around in circles but avoiding the real crux that is - people like you will never want to join the GAA as you will alwsys find faults and move the goalposts - as witnessed by all in the dup's goalpost moving in the assembly 'talks'.
thats in the nature of a lot of these people folks.
Dont be taken in.

Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 12, 2006, 01:09:43 PM

He does betray his upbringing in some of his comments

Quotewhilst even Adams has realised

Fair enough; you may substitute "Paisley" for "Adams", if you wish!  :D

Quote from: Mayo4Sam on December 12, 2006, 01:09:43 PM
Lads once again Evil Genius is winning this argument hands down with well thoughtout structured arguments.

With all due respect Mayo4Sam, its your personal opinion that Evil Genius is "winning" this argument.
Its not for you to decide as fact who is.
There are many who disagree with you, and him.
And while it is my own opinion that he is wrong and being very deceptive, and overloading this thread with so much text that people just dont have the time to reply to his points, I can at least admit it is just my opinion.
Lets not assume the roles of "judge" here.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 12, 2006, 01:20:32 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on December 12, 2006, 12:40:58 PM
. However, as a teenager growing up in the Troubles, faced daily with Gerry Adams et alia using guns and bombs in the "Armed Struggle", we knew exactly who the "Brits" in the accompanying cry of "Brits Out" were then: it meant us.

Actually it didnt.
Your whole argument is based on a false sense of exclusion if this is the case.

I will say again, that if any protestant wanted to join/play hurling at Kevin Lynch's Hurling club in dungiven county Derry, they would be welcomed.
they would be made to feel VERY welcome.
the issue then is whether someone from that community would want to join.
Ok so the name puts them off.
Funnily similar names do not put off too many nationalists from attending 'Queens University' , Royal Victoria etc etc

if you want to find offense you will - which is what your postulation and 'debate' actually just is.

OK so the name doesnt fit, how about you go to any GAA club with some Irish name - Ruari Og in Cushendall ...
Would you go then?
The GAA does not exclude anyone, the last traces of that were discarded with the rule banning british army and security forces being deleted a couple of years ago.
you are going around in circles but avoiding the real crux that is - people like you will never want to join the GAA as you will alwsys find faults and move the goalposts - as witnessed by all in the dup's goalpost moving in the assembly 'talks'.
thats in the nature of a lot of these people folks.
Dont be taken in.

It seems to me that what you are saying is that you, as a Nationalist, reserve the right to determine what you mean by epithets such as "Brits", but I, as a Unionist, am not accorded the same privilege when using the same term. Thank You.

As for the Kevin Lynch club (an example of a less "liberal-minded" club chosen by Max Mill, rather than me, btw), I have no reason to suppose you're wrong about the welcome I would receive. However, I have no more wish to be associated in any way with a GAA club named in honour of an INLA man, than I would a soccer club named in "honour" of a UDA man. And just in case there should be any doubt, yes, that is precisely because "the name puts [me] off".

Your examples of QUB or the Royal Victoria are mere "whataboutery".  I no more object to these than I do to the naming of O'Connell Street or Parnell Square in Dublin. The naming of institutions such as these are solely a political matter, to be determined by political authorities. I fail to see what they have to do with sport, which is what we are discussing here (or more particularly, the mixing of sport and politics, as practised by the GAA)

Nor have I anywhere in my (lengthy!) posts expressed any objection whatever to the Irish language; how could any reasonable person take exception to a Gaelic Athletic club having, ahem,  a Gaelic name? As it happens, many NI soccer clubs have Irish names (albeit Anglicised), like Portadown, Glenavon, Derry City, Ballymena United etc etc!

And while the GAA does not specifically exclude anyone (bar those who might wish to rent their facilities for certain "foreign" games, unlike e.g. rugby or soccer  ;)), it does deter many by its insistence in retaining a political, as well as a sporting ethos, unlike just about every other sporting organisation in Ireland.

As for Irish Unionists consistently "moving the goalposts" in order to justify not joining in GAA, I have consistently said that my objection is simply to the GAA's insistence on mixing the political with what I believe should solely be sporting matters. But if you don't believe me, then call my bluff: if you drop the politics, see then whether I drop the objections!

As for "the dup's goalpost moving in the assembly 'talks'.", where, other than in a light-hearted aside to Mayo4Sam, did I even mention, never mind endorse, anything to do with the DUP in this debate? This is more "whataboutery" from you, I'm afraid, and frankly, I think it's pathetic. :(

Quotewe knew exactly who the "Brits" in the accompanying cry of "Brits Out" were then: it meant us

Prove it. You can't, because it's absolute bollocks. 'Brits out' referred to the british armed services, no more and no less. You are still trying to be offended by a poll which in intent does not refer to northern unionists, protestants, british irish, northern british irish etc. etc. Give it up

Evil Genius, tell you what.
You have explained why you wouldnt join the GAA in detail, not that I believe for a second you ever had any intentions.
So dont join, dont participate, dont watch it, entirely your choice, if you change your mind you will be welcomed.
END OF STORY!!!  ::)

Quote from: Evil Genius on December 12, 2006, 01:53:56 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 12, 2006, 01:20:32 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on December 12, 2006, 12:40:58 PM
. However, as a teenager growing up in the Troubles, faced daily with Gerry Adams et alia using guns and bombs in the "Armed Struggle", we knew exactly who the "Brits" in the accompanying cry of "Brits Out" were then: it meant us.

Actually it didnt.
Your whole argument is based on a false sense of exclusion if this is the case.

I will say again, that if any protestant wanted to join/play hurling at Kevin Lynch's Hurling club in dungiven county Derry, they would be welcomed.
they would be made to feel VERY welcome.
the issue then is whether someone from that community would want to join.
Ok so the name puts them off.
Funnily similar names do not put off too many nationalists from attending 'Queens University' , Royal Victoria etc etc

if you want to find offense you will - which is what your postulation and 'debate' actually just is.

OK so the name doesnt fit, how about you go to any GAA club with some Irish name - Ruari Og in Cushendall ...
Would you go then?
The GAA does not exclude anyone, the last traces of that were discarded with the rule banning british army and security forces being deleted a couple of years ago.
you are going around in circles but avoiding the real crux that is - people like you will never want to join the GAA as you will alwsys find faults and move the goalposts - as witnessed by all in the dup's goalpost moving in the assembly 'talks'.
thats in the nature of a lot of these people folks.
Dont be taken in.

It seems to me that what you are saying is that you, as a Nationalist, reserve the right to determine what you mean by epithets such as "Brits", but I, as a Unionist, am not accorded the same privilege when using the same term. Thank You.

As for the Kevin Lynch club (an example of a less "liberal-minded" club chosen by Max Mill, rather than me, btw), I have no reason to suppose you're wrong about the welcome I would receive. However, I have no more wish to be associated in any way with a GAA club named in honour of an INLA man, than I would a soccer club named in "honour" of a UDA man. And just in case there should be any doubt, yes, that is precisely because "the name puts [me] off".

Your examples of QUB or the Royal Victoria are mere "whataboutery".  I no more object to these than I do to the naming of O'Connell Street or Parnell Square in Dublin. The naming of institutions such as these are solely a political matter, to be determined by political authorities. I fail to see what they have to do with sport, which is what we are discussing here (or more particularly, the mixing of sport and politics, as practised by the GAA)

Nor have I anywhere in my (lengthy!) posts expressed any objection whatever to the Irish language; how could any reasonable person take exception to a Gaelic Athletic club having, ahem,  a Gaelic name? As it happens, many NI soccer clubs have Irish names (albeit Anglicised), like Portadown, Glenavon, Derry City, Ballymena United etc etc!

And while the GAA does not specifically exclude anyone (bar those who might wish to rent their facilities for certain "foreign" games, unlike e.g. rugby or soccer  ;)), it does deter many by its insistence in retaining a political, as well as a sporting ethos, unlike just about every other sporting organisation in Ireland.

As for Irish Unionists consistently "moving the goalposts" in order to justify not joining in GAA, I have consistently said that my objection is simply to the GAA's insistence on mixing the political with what I believe should solely be sporting matters. But if you don't believe me, then call my bluff: if you drop the politics, see then whether I drop the objections!

As for "the dup's goalpost moving in the assembly 'talks'.", where, other than in a light-hearted aside to Mayo4Sam, did I even mention, never mind endorse, anything to do with the DUP in this debate? This is more "whataboutery" from you, I'm afraid, and frankly, I think it's pathetic. :(

again 100% wrong and your brassed neck is something else
you are trying to tell us what WE (ie nationalists/republicans etc) meant when uttering the phrase 'brits out'

thats the good old unionist 'tell them what they should think' routine.
as for your charges of whataboutery - facile cries to lessen the MO of you and your type.

You want to be offended and thats about it.There is no politics in the Gaelic sport ( though sports people appear in politics)
Would you be offended in joining a GAA club with a harmless name?
I believe you would always find a reason not to, but lying on here would suit your purpose.
Has done so far anyhow.
I am prepared for more forked tongue reality dodging responses from you...

so back to the main point
for those who voted that they disliked 'the brits'
they mean british army , british(english) establishment and government

not the people living in the six counties - whatever their persuasion.

so your argument against this is pointless and idiotic.
You may not like it, but you cannot tell people what they mean whan they say 'brits'.

:D

"for those who voted that they disliked 'the brits'
they mean british army , british(english) establishment and government"

I voted "the brits" and agree 100% with the above.
Or did I mean something else Evil Genius? Please let me know.  ::)

I voted for the Brits thinking it was the music awards. Lost respect for them when Culture Club lifted only 2 awards in 1984.

(http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/ARP/ARP108/judge.jpg)