The IRISH RUGBY thread

[Syferus]

Whats Syf smoking!!

Is this why Jackson couldn't travel to the US for the New Zealand and USA tests?

One could hope. It hold be ironic that his pending charges prevented him gonig to America but it wasn't enough for Joe to drop it from the squad. Whatever about Ulster, Joe could easily have taken the high road on this one because Jackson is expendable at the best of times.

It's so sad that the response here is a predictable defense of someone charged with rape. The Ched Evans thread was lamentable enough. Do you think anyone here doesn't have an opinion on this, guilt or innonce? Pretending you don't and you're whiter than white fools no one, least of all me. And libel, get off your play horses.

We know no details of the story how can anyone on here opine as to the 2 lads guilt or innocence? If they did it then sure throw the book at them and never let them play for Ulster or Ireland again but to accuse two lads or rape based on no evidence and ahead of due process is just wrong!

Read my full post and you'll see what my aim has been.

[Owen Brannigan]

Whats Syf smoking!!

Is this why Jackson couldn't travel to the US for the New Zealand and USA tests?

One could hope. It hold be ironic that his pending charges prevented him gonig to America but it wasn't enough for Joe to drop it from the squad. Whatever about Ulster, Joe could easily have taken the high road on this one because Jackson is expendable at the best of times.

It's so sad that the response here is a predictable defense of someone charged with rape. The Ched Evans thread was lamentable enough. Do you think anyone here doesn't have an opinion on this, guilt or innonce? Pretending you don't and you're whiter than white fools no one, least of all me. And libel, get off your play horses.

As both Jackson and Olding have already shown with BBC they are more than ready to take action to protect their reputations and hopefully they will take on the likes of you who is impugning their characters with absolutely no knowledge of the crime of which they are accused.

[Syferus]

Whats Syf smoking!!

Is this why Jackson couldn't travel to the US for the New Zealand and USA tests?

One could hope. It hold be ironic that his pending charges prevented him gonig to America but it wasn't enough for Joe to drop it from the squad. Whatever about Ulster, Joe could easily have taken the high road on this one because Jackson is expendable at the best of times.

It's so sad that the response here is a predictable defense of someone charged with rape. The Ched Evans thread was lamentable enough. Do you think anyone here doesn't have an opinion on this, guilt or innonce? Pretending you don't and you're whiter than white fools no one, least of all me. And libel, get off your play horses.

As both Jackson and Olding have already shown with BBC they are more than ready to take action to protect their reputations and hopefully they will take on the likes of you who is impugning their characters with absolutely no knowledge of the crime of which they are accused.

Check the time stamps on the link I posted. Cheers.

[trueblue1234]

Whats Syf smoking!!

Is this why Jackson couldn't travel to the US for the New Zealand and USA tests?

One could hope. It hold be ironic that his pending charges prevented him gonig to America but it wasn't enough for Joe to drop it from the squad. Whatever about Ulster, Joe could easily have taken the high road on this one because Jackson is expendable at the best of times.

It's so sad that the response here is a predictable defense of someone charged with rape. The Ched Evans thread was lamentable enough. Do you think anyone here doesn't have an opinion on this, guilt or innonce? Pretending you don't and you're whiter than white fools no one, least of all me. And libel, get off your play horses.

A cursory google search finds multiple people saying the woman is crying wolf and is targeting Jackson for money: https://forum.ybig.ie/the-rugby-thread_topic33841_page159.html

Rape victims don't get the presumption of innocence you have been bleeting for about. I would hope you've all learnt your lessons on this front now and that we're a better forum than the above..

Serious question, do you think anyone charged with a crime is automatically guilty of that crime?

[TyroneOnlooker]

The issue with rape cases and the like in the north is that the police/pps are under a duty to accept the victim's side of the story automatically. I believe there is some kind of law of rule from the courts which says this. The purpose obviously is to encourage victims of such crimes to come forward.

The result though is that in most cases, the alleged perpetrators will be charged automatically and it is up to them to prove their innocence in court. Think of it this way for example. Victim reports a rape. Police haul in perpetrators for questioning. They give a completely different story stating their innocence, provide alibies etc. Police are still obliged to believe victim's story and charge the alleged perpetrators.

On the other hand say the crime is alleged theft. This time alleged perpetrators are called in for questioning and are able to provide police with alibies and otherwise prove they didn't commit the crime. Police are satisfied and do not recommend charging to PPS.

Two different standards for two very different crimes. Even allegations of rape can possible ruin a reputation or career forever but on the other hand you also have to weigh up the severity of the crime and effect on the victim.

[macdanger2]

The issue with rape cases and the like in the north is that the police/pps are under a duty to accept the victim's side of the story automatically. I believe there is some kind of law of rule from the courts which says this. The purpose obviously is to encourage victims of such crimes to come forward.

The result though is that in most cases, the alleged perpetrators will be charged automatically and it is up to them to prove their innocence in court. Think of it this way for example. Victim reports a rape. Police haul in perpetrators for questioning. They give a completely different story stating their innocence, provide alibies etc. Police are still obliged to believe victim's story and charge the alleged perpetrators.

On the other hand say the crime is alleged theft. This time alleged perpetrators are called in for questioning and are able to provide police with alibies and otherwise prove they didn't commit the crime. Police are satisfied and do not recommend charging to PPS.

Two different standards for two very different crimes. Even allegations of rape can possible ruin a reputation or career forever but on the other hand you also have to weigh up the severity of the crime and effect on the victim.

I presume that's because the incidence of false rape accusations is significantly lower than the incidence of unreported rape.

Jackson is absolutely entitled to the presumption of innocence but it might have been wise of the IRFU to drop him without prejudice until the allegations had been investigated. It's not what would happen in a normal job but when you're a public figure / role model and representing the national side, it's a different story.

[Owen Brannigan]

The issue with rape cases and the like in the north is that the police/pps are under a duty to accept the victim's side of the story automatically. I believe there is some kind of law of rule from the courts which says this. The purpose obviously is to encourage victims of such crimes to come forward.

The result though is that in most cases, the alleged perpetrators will be charged automatically and it is up to them to prove their innocence in court. Think of it this way for example. Victim reports a rape. Police haul in perpetrators for questioning. They give a completely different story stating their innocence, provide alibies etc. Police are still obliged to believe victim's story and charge the alleged perpetrators.

On the other hand say the crime is alleged theft. This time alleged perpetrators are called in for questioning and are able to provide police with alibies and otherwise prove they didn't commit the crime. Police are satisfied and do not recommend charging to PPS.

Two different standards for two very different crimes. Even allegations of rape can possible ruin a reputation or career forever but on the other hand you also have to weigh up the severity of the crime and effect on the victim.

It's not a duty or law to accept the victim's allegation as true, it is policy for the reason you have stated. The police take statements and pass to the PPS or a decision to proceed or prosecute.  Arrest of accused is police decision which gives them the right to question the accused. Charging is decided by PPS. Still the prosecutor must prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. No right to anonymity for the accused.  PPS will let such cases run for around a year while dragging accused to court postponements so that press can report it repeatedly with the jury pool being poisoned a little more each time. Just imagine a certain poster on this thread being called for jury service. Also social media poisons the pool. No one going in with an open mind.

[FermGael]

That works both ways .
Defence will often stall the case.
Get injunctions for the smallest things.  Put the case back time and time again.

They may seek a Preliminary Inquiry.
That means the get the witness in the box again to give their account
That means they have their statements and a verbal account.
Means when they come to trial they have two accounts to work with plus the one the witness will give to the jury.
Now thats where they can sow the seeds of doubt to the jury.

[Walter Cronc]

Bundee Aki and Tyler Blyendaal training with Ireland this week.

Still have mixed thoughts on this whole overseas player situation.

[NAG1]

Bundee Aki and Tyler Blyendaal training with Ireland this week.

Still have mixed thoughts on this whole overseas player situation.

It's a farce but it's a farce that everyone is at, from the All Blacks to England.

[Walter Cronc]

Bundee Aki and Tyler Blyendaal training with Ireland this week.

Still have mixed thoughts on this whole overseas player situation.

It's a farce but it's a farce that everyone is at, from the All Blacks to England.

Yeah thats true. Would a better situation not be making overseas players who wish to play international rugby play for European, Australian & NZ Barbarian sides  rather than becoming 'token' Irish, Welsh or Englishmen?

[AZOffaly]

Bundee Aki and Tyler Blyendaal training with Ireland this week.

Still have mixed thoughts on this whole overseas player situation.

It's a farce but it's a farce that everyone is at, from the All Blacks to England.

Yeah thats true. Would a better situation not be making overseas players who wish to play international rugby play for European, Australian & NZ Barbarian sides  rather than becoming 'token' Irish, Welsh or Englishmen?

I think we just need to change the way we look at International Rugby. You're not representing your country, you are representing your union. So CJ Stander is not representing his country, his country is South Africa. He is representing his Union which is the IRFU. Likewise the Vunapola brothers are representing the RFU, and so on.

[Walter Cronc]

That's fair enough AZ when you put it like that.

I think the Vunipola's can't be compared to CJ etc. Did they not move to Wales as kids and the settled in England.

[Hardy]

Bundee Aki and Tyler Blyendaal training with Ireland this week.

Still have mixed thoughts on this whole overseas player situation.

It's a farce but it's a farce that everyone is at, from the All Blacks to England.

Yeah thats true. Would a better situation not be making overseas players who wish to play international rugby play for European, Australian & NZ Barbarian sides  rather than becoming 'token' Irish, Welsh or Englishmen?

I think we just need to change the way we look at International Rugby. You're not representing your country, you are representing your union. So CJ Stander is not representing his country, his country is South Africa. He is representing his Union which is the IRFU. Likewise the Vunapola brothers are representing the RFU, and so on.

I dunno. I like cheering for Ireland. I can't imagine getting excited about how the IRFU gets on.

[NAG1]

Bundee Aki and Tyler Blyendaal training with Ireland this week.

Still have mixed thoughts on this whole overseas player situation.

It's a farce but it's a farce that everyone is at, from the All Blacks to England.

Yeah thats true. Would a better situation not be making overseas players who wish to play international rugby play for European, Australian & NZ Barbarian sides  rather than becoming 'token' Irish, Welsh or Englishmen?

I think we just need to change the way we look at International Rugby. You're not representing your country, you are representing your union. So CJ Stander is not representing his country, his country is South Africa. He is representing his Union which is the IRFU. Likewise the Vunapola brothers are representing the RFU, and so on.

I dunno. I like cheering for Ireland. I can't imagine getting excited about how the IRFU gets on.

Did they not take the first step down this road with the 'Ireland's Call' abomination?