The Many Faces of US Politics...

Started by Tyrones own, March 20, 2009, 09:29:14 PM

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Eamonnca1

So you have to be a paid-up card-carrying member of Adolf's party before you can be called a Nazi? That's taking hair-splitting to the next level.

thejuice

Well since it's perfectly acceptable now to "punch a nazi in the face" or get them fired from their jobs it would be good to have a clear definition of what a nazi is. Also who gets to decide? I'm fairly confident that we've all been called nazi by someone on the net in a political discussion.

So has David Cameron, so has John McCain, Mitt Romney, George Bush, there's even republicans who write books on how Democrats are the real nazis and racists. So how does this work?

How does it help to keep labelling people as genocidal maniacs when you know damn well they really aren't.
It won't be the next manager but the one after that Meath will become competitive again - MO'D 2016

sid waddell

Quote from: thejuice on August 17, 2017, 12:44:36 AM
Well since it's perfectly acceptable now to "punch a nazi in the face" or get them fired from their jobs it would be good to have a clear definition of what a nazi is. Also who gets to decide? I'm fairly confident that we've all been called nazi by someone on the net in a political discussion.

So has David Cameron, so has John McCain, Mitt Romney, George Bush, there's even republicans who write books on how Democrats are the real nazis and racists. So how does this work?

How does it help to keep labelling people as genocidal maniacs when you know damn well they really aren't.
I think it's fair to assume that anybody who flies a Nazi flag is a Nazi.

I think it's fair to assume that anybody who goes around chanting "Jews will not replace us" and "blood and soil" and carries flaming torches while doing so is a Nazi.

I think it's fair to assume that anybody who sticks around to participate in any way at a "demonstration" at which these flags are flying and these chants are chanted, has, at the very least, strong Nazi sympathies, which I'd say makes them a Nazi.

Feminists, on the other hand, are not Nazis.




thejuice

Yes obviously it's gone past a certain stage at that point but look at what I wrote earlier. This was a step by step process of escalation. These young men and women who ended up in Charlottesville probably got called nazi or demonised by someone for having very centrist views or disagreed on abortion or for simply being a white person by some talking head on CNN.

So this is why reasoned rational debate has to happen from the beginning.
It won't be the next manager but the one after that Meath will become competitive again - MO'D 2016

seafoid

Quote from: sid waddell on August 17, 2017, 12:51:02 AM
Quote from: thejuice on August 17, 2017, 12:44:36 AM
Well since it's perfectly acceptable now to "punch a nazi in the face" or get them fired from their jobs it would be good to have a clear definition of what a nazi is. Also who gets to decide? I'm fairly confident that we've all been called nazi by someone on the net in a political discussion.

So has David Cameron, so has John McCain, Mitt Romney, George Bush, there's even republicans who write books on how Democrats are the real nazis and racists. So how does this work?

How does it help to keep labelling people as genocidal maniacs when you know damn well they really aren't.
I think it's fair to assume that anybody who flies a Nazi flag is a Nazi.

I think it's fair to assume that anybody who goes around chanting "Jews will not replace us" and "blood and soil" and carries flaming torches while doing so is a Nazi.

I think it's fair to assume that anybody who sticks around to participate in any way at a "demonstration" at which these flags are flying and these chants are chanted, has, at the very least, strong Nazi sympathies, which I'd say makes them a Nazi.

Feminists, on the other hand, are not Nazis.
Any group that goes to a public gathering chanting blood and soil with automatic weapons that freak out the authorities potentially qualifies.

Nazism is all about grievances and Violence. 

If the people in 4 Chan have grievances they should address them via the usual channels.

I think they are being manipulated by the likes of Bannon. He wants to blow up western society .

One of the saddest videos on YouTube is the 1955 return of the German prisoners from the Soviet Union.  There were hundreds of thousands of them if not a million in 1945  . Only 10, 000 made it home. It was Adenauers most important achievement  Before he killed himself Hitler declared that the German people didnt deserve him. Nazis are c###s.

the Daily Stormer described Heather Heyer, the young woman killed by an alleged white supremacist driver in Charlottesville, as "a fat, childless 32-year-old s**t",
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

CiKe

Interesting post juice but I don't think anyone starts flying and appropriating the swastika simply because someone called them a Nazi, if they don't at least have sympathies in that direction. As someone else said, it's not only paid up card carrying members.

seafoid

Robert B. Neller @GenRobertNeller

No place for racial hatred or extremism in @USMC. Our core values of Honor, Courage, and Commitment frame the way Marines live and act.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

seafoid

Alt right has a big dose of antisemitism. Josh Marshall is Jewish.

Josh Marshall @joshtpm

On the subject of mockery, I believe it is a deeply moral stance. Mocking bad people is a way of depriving them of power, the power of ...

2/ fear and intimidation. Marching around with torches in the night is performative menace. That's the point. One can fight that in many

3/ ways but not accepting it on its own terms, valorizing it through condemnation, as it were, is a key, necessary way. Does

4/ We'll, we can judge that in many ways. In directly and immediately affecting the targets, sometimes yes and sometimes no. But I believe..

Josh Marshall @joshtpm·Aug 12

5/ it always buoys those who do the mocking, gives them moral nourishment and strength. We shld never cower. And losing the ability

6/ laugh at the laughable can sometimes amount to cowering. Don't cower. Don't give anyone power or strength who does not deserve it.

"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Keyser soze

Quote from: sid waddell on August 17, 2017, 12:51:02 AM
Quote from: thejuice on August 17, 2017, 12:44:36 AM
Well since it's perfectly acceptable now to "punch a nazi in the face" or get them fired from their jobs it would be good to have a clear definition of what a nazi is. Also who gets to decide? I'm fairly confident that we've all been called nazi by someone on the net in a political discussion.

So has David Cameron, so has John McCain, Mitt Romney, George Bush, there's even republicans who write books on how Democrats are the real nazis and racists. So how does this work?

How does it help to keep labelling people as genocidal maniacs when you know damn well they really aren't.
I think it's fair to assume that anybody who flies a Nazi flag is a Nazi.

I think it's fair to assume that anybody who goes around chanting "Jews will not replace us" and "blood and soil" and carries flaming torches while doing so is a Nazi.

I think it's fair to assume that anybody who sticks around to participate in any way at a "demonstration" at which these flags are flying and these chants are chanted, has, at the very least, strong Nazi sympathies, which I'd say makes them a Nazi.

Feminists, on the other hand, are not Nazis.

You would also assume that Cork people flying confederate flags at matches are racists.

theskull1

#10134
Bernhard Langer's German so there's your Nazi proof
It's a lot easier to sing karaoke than to sing opera

thejuice

Seafoid. On the previous page you called James Damore the former senior engineer at google a nazi and then I would say unfairly mischaracterised the findings in the memo he wrote. Have you read his memo? Have you checked the research that it cites? He wrote the memo in response to a request for ideas following a particular meeting on the subject at hand.

Do you think a senior google engineer would just write an unsubstantiated career threatening rant for the fun of it?

In case you haven't read it here it is, in what I hope is an unedited version.

https://www.scribd.com/mobile/document/355823379/Google-s-Ideological-Echo-Chamber#

Of course both sides picked it up and ran with it to their own camp. So even if it turns out that the research he cited ends up flawed but has been peer reviewed and maybe disputed but not disproven why should he be attacked personally.

Argue the facts and the science, ease off on the ad hominem. But you should recognise what you are feeding into when you throw around that label recklessly. Remember you are reducing someone to the level of a genocidal monstrosity with that word. Perhaps that's why websites like dailystormer exist nowadays.

I don't have time to get into a long discussion about this here and I think I've said enough. I'll leave you with Sam Harris' latest podcast (that's right, there are people out there who think Sam Harris is a Nazi). It's quite instructive on the issues at hand and will bring far better insight to it than I ever could.

https://soundcloud.com/samharrisorg/92-the-limits-of-persuasion
It won't be the next manager but the one after that Meath will become competitive again - MO'D 2016

sid waddell

Quote from: seafoid on August 17, 2017, 07:41:25 AM

Nazism is all about grievances and Violence. 

If the people in 4 Chan have grievances they should address them via the usual channels.


Everybody has grievances.

Not all grievances are legitimate.

The "grievances" of the people who populate the likes of 4Chan tend to be entirely spurious and frivolous ones.

Much of "conservative" politics these days is centred around a sort of bizarre white male identity politics.

In the US the motivating factors for "grievance" have become very similar to the motivating factors for "grievances" held by Northern Unionists and the Afrikaaners - primarily the sense of unease at losing a previously held position of dominance and unease at the rise of people who were previously trampled on.

Modern US "conservatism" is largely centred around the idea of the superiority and primacy of the white man. This idea is largely unspoken but it is undeniable. It varies on a spectrum from people who are silently uneasy at the prospect of whites becoming a minority within 30 years to outright KKK Nazis.

The Republican party and US conservatism, particularly media, has encouraged and nurtured this sense of imagined grievance for decades.

The reaction to Obama's presidency brought these imagined grievances into full view and Trump has legitimised them.

Given the right conditions, nothing motivates support like hatred of "the other". The Republicans spent 50 years working towards creating a situation where these conditions can exist. They have succeeded.

Grievances based on the white man losing his previously held position of dominance are not legitimate ones.






Denn Forever

I have more respect for a man
that says what he means and
means what he says...

haranguerer

Quote from: thejuice on August 17, 2017, 09:39:58 AM
Seafoid. On the previous page you called James Damore the former senior engineer at google a nazi and then I would say unfairly mischaracterised the findings in the memo he wrote. Have you read his memo? Have you checked the research that it cites? He wrote the memo in response to a request for ideas following a particular meeting on the subject at hand.

Do you think a senior google engineer would just write an unsubstantiated career threatening rant for the fun of it?

In case you haven't read it here it is, in what I hope is an unedited version.

https://www.scribd.com/mobile/document/355823379/Google-s-Ideological-Echo-Chamber#

Of course both sides picked it up and ran with it to their own camp. So even if it turns out that the research he cited ends up flawed but has been peer reviewed and maybe disputed but not disproven why should he be attacked personally.

Argue the facts and the science, ease off on the ad hominem. But you should recognise what you are feeding into when you throw around that label recklessly. Remember you are reducing someone to the level of a genocidal monstrosity with that word. Perhaps that's why websites like dailystormer exist nowadays.

I don't have time to get into a long discussion about this here and I think I've said enough. I'll leave you with Sam Harris' latest podcast (that's right, there are people out there who think Sam Harris is a Nazi). It's quite instructive on the issues at hand and will bring far better insight to it than I ever could.

https://soundcloud.com/samharrisorg/92-the-limits-of-persuasion

thejuice speaks sense

whitey