Dublin

[seafoid]

Gavin didn't design the team> Didn't Pillar win the al Ireland with them a few years ago ?

You mean Gilroy?

I wasn't following it that closely tbh. someone else won it .Must have been gilroy

[easytiger95]

Definitely Gilroy - we only got to a couple of semi finals under Pillar.

[seafoid]

Definitely Gilroy - we only got to a couple of semi finals under Pillar.

Didn't Pillar and Gilroy do a lot of the work.of building the current team?
I think the hyperbole about the Dubs taking over is over the top. 4 all Irelands in over 30 years is below the long term average.

[easytiger95]

I would agree on the hyperbole, and most of it comes from outside the county - I remember the same stuff being written on this board in Spring 2014, all about Dublin's Thousand Year Reich. I said then that we had only beaten Mayo by a point the previous year, and the Kerry team we had beaten in the semi final was transitioning at the time.

I certainly wasn't happy to be proven right that year, but right I was. If there is a difference between then and now it is that we are not running up the same scores against the weaker teams as we did then but the control we exert over the stronger teams is startling - look at Kerry and Donegal twice in the league this year and I still maintain you could replay last year's AIF 10 times and we would win it ten times. But this has more to do with the standard of teams against us, rather than us taking a quantum leap. Don't get me wrong. I think we are the best team in the country, but I also think that other teams haven't figured out the questions we ask yet.

Kerry I think are really interesting, as there are a lot of parallels between them coming to the end of the last decade and where they are now. They seem to have a fetish for holding onto players for a lot longer than would be viable in other counties. Some of them are great players, but I remember them refashioning Eoin Brosnan as a centre back, back then, and I think that kind of stuff just doesn't work at the highest level. Players like Marc O Se and Aidan O'Mahony, Donnacha Walsh, even the Gooch to some extent, are all well and good in the league and in Munster - because their natural ability and muscle memory gets them through - but they are not able physically anymore for the very highest level, which is Dublin at the moment. If the answer is Kieran Donaghy at full forward, you are asking the wrong question. Kerry don't seem prepared for the years of retrenchment which are needed to rebuild a side (especially since they got an All Ireland out of them in 2014, but I'd argue that was a championship the Dubs threw away rather than Kerry dominated)

People seem to forget that it was in Gilroy's third year he won an All Ireland - in the years leading up to it, he took Cullen from centre back to wing forward, unearthed gems like McCauley, resolved the full back issue with Rory O'Carroll, recast the half back line with Brennan, Nolan and McCarthy, shifted Barry Cahill to third midfielder/CF, gave Alan Brogan a roving brief from corner forward to CF and put Berno and Diarmud Brogan inside. To do all this, he dropped a load of Pillar's stalwarts, endured a hiding from Kerry in 2009, went to extra time against Wexford in Leinster the following year, before a hiding from Meath in the final (where a load of lads I know from Meath told me in Jurys after that we were ten years away from Sam), before losing a narrow semi to Cork.

You have to go through that to rebuild and Gilroy was just the kind of hard-bitten Vincents man we neeed to do it. But Gavin's genius, and he does have a genius for it, I think, was to do the same kind of thing that Pep Guardiola did at Barca after Rijkaard's reign (who also won a Champions League, though it is often forgotten). He changed the squad and changed the style (remember Gilroy was criticized for the defensiveness of his teams) and turned what was a tank into a Maserati.

However - even he will be up against it to replace McCaffrey and O'Carroll. McCaffrey's pure pace gave an extra dimension to our attacking play, and we are lot more lateral when he isn't skinning players. Rory is, pure and simple, the best full back of this decade, not flashy, not brash, but a pure old school Darren Fay type of intelligent defender. You don't replace guys like that.

Throw in Berno coming to the end of his career (sharp and all as he was against Kerry in the League Final), Gavin's reliance on Bastick at the expense of McAuley (we need him back firing - him and Fenton would be a savage midfield) and the kind of carelessness that Philly and Dermo showed against Kerry, and we might be a different animal in Champo then people think. We certainly won't dominate the rest of the decade as most people seem to assume.

That said, the poverty of Leinster football will mean we will be regulars in quarters and semis, no matter what happens. Meath, Kildare and Offaly need to get it together, for their own sakes as much as for Leinster football.

[Lar Naparka]

Definitely Gilroy - we only got to a couple of semi finals under Pillar.

Didn't Pillar and Gilroy do a lot of the work.of building the current team?
I think the hyperbole about the Dubs taking over is over the top. 4 all Irelands in over 30 years is below the long term average.

As Mark Twain once put it; there are three types of lie, namely lies,
damn lies and statistics. No offence intended but your post belongs to the third category, without doubt.
Dunno why you went back thirty years because for 25 of them, Dublin won just a single title. You could feel sorry for the poor buggers if you let statistics go to your head. Kerry won a total of 8 in the Last 3w0 years- if you go by ststs, Kerry must be 8 times better than the Dubs.
   In a rapidly changing world, only about a max of five years can be taken as an accurate barometer of anything. The Dubs' dominance is set to continue for the foreseeable future and I believe that an average of five out of every ten years will see the Dubs winning Sam. (Same as the trend has been over the last five years.)
Between 20005 and 2015, Dublin failed to win the Leinster title only once.
From a long-term point of view, there is cause for worry there.
If the likes of, say, Meath, Kildare and Laois couldn't win one between then in the last ten years, there's something wrong with the structures and it's going to get worse not better.
One can talk about Kerry and Kilkenny having long periods of dominance but no valid comparison can be drawn between those two and Dublin.
In terms of population, playing numbers and wealth, neither stands out from their competitors. Kilkenny has far fewer clubs than Cork, Tipp and I imagine Dublin. Kerry has won far more Sams than their playing numbers and resources would warrant.
Dublin have as fine a team as I've seen in a long, long time but there's no denying that the odds of them landing Sam in any year in the future are shortening all the time.

[seafoid]

Definitely Gilroy - we only got to a couple of semi finals under Pillar.

Didn't Pillar and Gilroy do a lot of the work.of building the current team?
I think the hyperbole about the Dubs taking over is over the top. 4 all Irelands in over 30 years is below the long term average.

As Mark Twain once put it; there are three types of lie, namely lies,
damn lies and statistics. No offence intended but your post belongs to the third category, without doubt.
Dunno why you went back thirty years because for 25 of them, Dublin won just a single title. You could feel sorry for the poor buggers if you let statistics go to your head. Kerry won a total of 8 in the Last 3w0 years- if you go by ststs, Kerry must be 8 times better than the Dubs.
   In a rapidly changing world, only about a max of five years can be taken as an accurate barometer of anything. The Dubs' dominance is set to continue for the foreseeable future and I believe that an average of five out of every ten years will see the Dubs winning Sam. (Same as the trend has been over the last five years.)
Between 20005 and 2015, Dublin failed to win the Leinster title only once.
From a long-term point of view, there is cause for worry there.
If the likes of, say, Meath, Kildare and Laois couldn't win one between then in the last ten years, there's something wrong with the structures and it's going to get worse not better.
One can talk about Kerry and Kilkenny having long periods of dominance but no valid comparison can be drawn between those two and Dublin.
In terms of population, playing numbers and wealth, neither stands out from their competitors. Kilkenny has far fewer clubs than Cork, Tipp and I imagine Dublin. Kerry has won far more Sams than their playing numbers and resources would warrant.
Dublin have as fine a team as I've seen in a long, long time but there's no denying that the odds of them landing Sam in any year in the future are shortening all the time.

Lar they have a good team . Might win another 2. And Leinster is a mess. But domination is a pipe dream.
And Mayo will win stuff once the duck is broken. And they could pick.up 3 in the next decade ceteris pari Roscommon bus.

What is most interesting about now is the regularity with which Kerry get their arses handed to them in all Ireland finals.

[Beffs]

People seem to forget that it was in Gilroy's third year he won an All Ireland - in the years leading up to it, he took Cullen from centre back to wing forward, unearthed gems like McCauley, resolved the full back issue with Rory O'Carroll, recast the half back line with Brennan, Nolan and McCarthy, shifted Barry Cahill to third midfielder/CF, gave Alan Brogan a roving brief from corner forward to CF and put Berno and Diarmud Brogan inside. To do all this, he dropped a load of Pillar's stalwarts, endured a hiding from Kerry in 2009, went to extra time against Wexford in Leinster the following year, before a hiding from Meath in the final (where a load of lads I know from Meath told me in Jurys after that we were ten years away from Sam), before losing a narrow semi to Cork.

You have to go through that to rebuild and Gilroy was just the kind of hard-bitten Vincents man we neeed to do it. But Gavin's genius, and he does have a genius for it, I think, was to do the same kind of thing that Pep Guardiola did at Barca after Rijkaard's reign (who also won a Champions League, though it is often forgotten). He changed the squad and changed the style (remember Gilroy was criticized for the defensiveness of his teams) and turned what was a tank into a Maserati.

He did all that and he also was responsible for the current steely, never-say-die resolve that was noticeably absent in earlier Dublin teams. For all the praise that Gavin gets,  I don't think that Gilroy gets near enough the credit that he deserves. Gavin has done a lot of things right in his time, but he is constructing his Dublin team, from a foundation that Gilroy largely was responsible for laying, especially in the mental strength department.

[From the Bunker]

Ok lets look at the Myth of Leinster Football.

Looking beyond Dublin, Meath up to lately used to win 50% of the titles Dublin won. A 2:1 Ratio. That has collapsed lately. Dublin and meath have 75 titles between them. Looking at the rest of the counties they have 54 between. Which looks ok until you see that 33 were won before the end of WW2. Offaly came good in the 60's through to the 70's and the 80's.  Kildare were there or there abouts in the late 90's.

Really when we say Leinster is weak, we really mean Meath are Weak?


Kildare who we say (think) are a strong county have won two Leinster titles in the last 60 years. They have not won a Leinster since 2000.

Offaly One title in the last 34 years. Last title 1997.

Wexford Last title 1945.

Louth Last title 1957.

Laois One title in 70 years. Last title 2003.

Carlow last title and only 1945.

Longford Last title and only 1968.

Westmeath last and only title 2004.

Kilkenny last title 1911

[Syferus]

Wake me up when HQ admits they've consciously created a world devouring monster.

[Hill16 Blues]

Ok lets look at the Myth of Leinster Football.

Looking beyond Dublin, Meath up to lately used to win 50% of the titles Dublin won. A 2:1 Ratio. That has collapsed lately. Dublin and meath have 75 titles between them. Looking at the rest of the counties they have 54 between. Which looks ok until you see that 33 were won before the end of WW2. Offaly came good in the 60's through to the 70's and the 80's.  Kildare were there or there abouts in the late 90's.

Really when we say Leinster is weak, we really mean Meath are Weak?


Kildare who we say (think) are a strong county have won two Leinster titles in the last 60 years. They have not won a Leinster since 2000.

Offaly One title in the last 34 years. Last title 1997.

Wexford Last title 1945.

Louth Last title 1957.

Laois One title in 70 years. Last title 2003.

Carlow last title and only 1945.

Longford Last title and only 1968.

Westmeath last and only title 2004.

Kilkenny last title 1911

In last 20 years Dublin have won 11 Leinsters, Meath 4, Kildare 2, Laois, Offaly & Westmeath 1 each

In 20 years before that Dublin won 12 Leinsters, Meath 5 and Offaly 3

So what exactly is your point? Dublin dominate Leinster, always have and always will. Kerry do the same in Munster. Mayo now doing so in Connacht.

The other teams in Leinster have regressed because of their own failings and inadequacies. They will continue to fail until they get their heads out of their backsides, put proper structures in place as many non Leinster counties have done and stop constantly whinging & moaning about Dublin.

[From the Bunker]

Ok lets look at the Myth of Leinster Football.

Looking beyond Dublin, Meath up to lately used to win 50% of the titles Dublin won. A 2:1 Ratio. That has collapsed lately. Dublin and meath have 75 titles between them. Looking at the rest of the counties they have 54 between. Which looks ok until you see that 33 were won before the end of WW2. Offaly came good in the 60's through to the 70's and the 80's.  Kildare were there or there abouts in the late 90's.

Really when we say Leinster is weak, we really mean Meath are Weak?


Kildare who we say (think) are a strong county have won two Leinster titles in the last 60 years. They have not won a Leinster since 2000.

Offaly One title in the last 34 years. Last title 1997.

Wexford Last title 1945.

Louth Last title 1957.

Laois One title in 70 years. Last title 2003.

Carlow last title and only 1945.

Longford Last title and only 1968.

Westmeath last and only title 2004.

Kilkenny last title 1911

In last 20 years Dublin have won 11 Leinsters, Meath 4, Kildare 2, Laois, Offaly & Westmeath 1 each

In 20 years before that Dublin won 12 Leinsters, Meath 5 and Offaly 3

So what exactly is your point? Dublin dominate Leinster, always have and always will. Kerry do the same in Munster. Mayo now doing so in Connacht.

The other teams in Leinster have regressed because of their own failings and inadequacies. They will continue to fail until they get their heads out of their backsides, put proper structures in place as many non Leinster counties have done and stop constantly whinging & moaning about Dublin.

''Enfin je me rappelai le pis-aller d'une grande princesse à qui l'on disait que les paysans n'avaient pas de pain, et qui répondit : Qu'ils mangent de la brioche''

[seafoid]

Ok lets look at the Myth of Leinster Football.

Looking beyond Dublin, Meath up to lately used to win 50% of the titles Dublin won. A 2:1 Ratio. That has collapsed lately. Dublin and meath have 75 titles between them. Looking at the rest of the counties they have 54 between. Which looks ok until you see that 33 were won before the end of WW2. Offaly came good in the 60's through to the 70's and the 80's.  Kildare were there or there abouts in the late 90's.

Really when we say Leinster is weak, we really mean Meath are Weak?


Kildare who we say (think) are a strong county have won two Leinster titles in the last 60 years. They have not won a Leinster since 2000.

Offaly One title in the last 34 years. Last title 1997.

Wexford Last title 1945.

Louth Last title 1957.

Laois One title in 70 years. Last title 2003.

Carlow last title and only 1945.

Longford Last title and only 1968.

Westmeath last and only title 2004.

Kilkenny last title 1911

In last 20 years Dublin have won 11 Leinsters, Meath 4, Kildare 2, Laois, Offaly & Westmeath 1 each

In 20 years before that Dublin won 12 Leinsters, Meath 5 and Offaly 3

So what exactly is your point? Dublin dominate Leinster, always have and always will. Kerry do the same in Munster. Mayo now doing so in Connacht.

The other teams in Leinster have regressed because of their own failings and inadequacies. They will continue to fail until they get their heads out of their backsides, put proper structures in place as many non Leinster counties have done and stop constantly whinging & moaning about Dublin.

They have regressed because of their thoughts and their words as well as what they have done and failed to do.
Meath and Kildare are the most shocking cases.

[seafoid]

The Dubs would look a lot less impressive if Mayo were winning their share of Sams.
Winning is in large part psychological and the Dubs have the edge over Kerry as well. But the notion of a thousand year Reich is nuts .

[Hill16 Blues]

The Dubs would look a lot less impressive if Mayo were winning their share of Sams.
Winning is in large part psychological and the Dubs have the edge over Kerry as well. But the notion of a thousand year Reich is nuts .

Dublin win because at the minute they have the best team, better footballers and a desire & hunger to keep winning as all great teams do.

Share of SAMs?? Mayo have not won because of physchological shortcomings. More so because they are not as good as Dublin and the year recently Dublin didn't make it to the final they got done by inept& incompetent ref in semi replay v Kerry. No guarantee they would have beaten Donegal in final but you would have fancied them to.

[seafoid]

The Dubs would look a lot less impressive if Mayo were winning their share of Sams.
Winning is in large part psychological and the Dubs have the edge over Kerry as well. But the notion of a thousand year Reich is nuts .

Dublin win because at the minute they have the best team, better footballers and a desire & hunger to keep winning as all great teams do.

Share of SAMs?? Mayo have not won because of physchological shortcomings. More so because they are not as good as Dublin and the year recently Dublin didn't make it to the final they got done by inept& incompetent ref in semi replay v Kerry. No guarantee they would have beaten Donegal in final but you would have fancied them to.

the psych thing is what prevented Mayo from winning 2 of the last 5 all Irelands
the Dubs had it 91 to 94 as well of course...
But they made it over the line in 95

If Mayo can win one Sam they will kick on and develop even further

dubs have been going since 09 maybe so have a lot of mileage on the clock