GAA Betting Issue - Who was in the right?

[Lone Shark]

I am aware that I am slightly vested in that I work for a rival company - I've done my best to present the facts here as bare as possible, if anyone feels that I'm adding editorial or slanting the facts then please say so!

I'd be curious to get the board's opinion as to a recent bet I struck with Paddy Powers. Lest there be any confusion, I do currently work with Ladbrokes, so if people want to bear that in mind before voting, then do so by all means.

Tuesday of last week I noticed a price on Paddy Powers Website - Wexford plus two points against Louth at 8/11. I was looking to get with Wexford as I rate them as a middling team, which is more than I rate Louth - personal opinion and all that before any Louth posters jump down my throat!! I was very surprised to see a two point handicap on the game, particularly as Powers were even money Louth to win the match, but while I considered it unusual I went to strike the bet. I went into one of their Galway shops and asked behind the counter for a large bet. The girl behind the counter rang up head office to confirm the price, to confirm that it was okay to take the bet, all confirmed and duly took it. I stayed in the shop chatting with her for a few minutes seeing as a knew her and my sister had worked in the shop for a while. (The relevance of this will come up).

Went home to see that they had changed the handicap from two points to one, a relatively reasonable response to such a large bet I thought.

Went in to collect on Tuesday, to be told that the bet was to be paid out at 8/15 instead of 8/11, since it was a pricing error. How they would have been willing to void the bet, but I hadn't been in the shop since. They maintain that since Louth were even money, it was a palpable error and that the handicap was clearly intended to be one point at 8/11. I maintain that the handicap is a different market, and must be treated differently. For example this weekend I have Dublin at 1/5 and Galway at 1/8, but I have Dublin 6 point favourites and Galway five - to reflect the likelihood of the lower scoring in Carrick. I also believe that their not contacting me was their mistake - the girl who accepted the bet clearly knew who I was as we chatted for a while about how my sister was getting on and I worked with her myself when I was being trained in. The shop manager, assistant manager and several head office people all have my phone number and email address. I'm not saying that she passed on the information as to who struck the bet, but it was there if anyone took the time out to ask.

I would have voided the bet and backed Wexford at better prices elsewhere if I had known. (Even money plus one point was available)

I appreciate that a two point handicap for a game that close would have been unusual - but by ringing the head office I would have thought that was cleared up.

My question to you the punters is:

Was I taking advantage and 8/15 was the correct price?

or

Are they out of order and should it have been paid at 8/11?

[the Deel Rover]

i would assume they would have to pay at 8/11 .What would you do if it happened at ladbrokes Lone Shark

[Lone Shark]

With me the crucial issue would be if a call was put in. If the shop staff took it without calling and it was an erroneous price, then I'd have to think about it (i.e. weigh up the facts to try and determine if the customer knew it was a mistake or not). If somebody in head office answered the call, quoted the price and took the bet, I'd insist it was honoured - however that is just me. I'm not suggesting other bookies have to do things the same way I do, I'm merely curious as to what people think was the fair solution.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

I'd say you were shafted there Lone Shark, the call to head-office is the clincher.

[the Deel Rover]

as you said lone Shark the girl called Head office and they gave the ok, i'd insist that they would  honour the bet.what options are available to you?

[magpie seanie]

I can't see how it would be right for them to chenge the price to 8/15 after the bet was struck in full knowledge of head office. By all means PP should haul whoever fucked up in head office over the coals but that's their business and a bet is a bet.

[The Real SlimShady]

should have been 8/11

c***ts. you as a guy who works in a bookies should know this. if the Clerk accepts the bet with the odds written on the docket than thats the odds they pay out, unless its voided or rule 4 or whatever.

[supersarsfields]

On a different view if they advertised one price then changed it would that not be false advertising? Which I'm sure they can also be done for?

[Lone Shark]

Deel Rover - There is an arbitration service called IBAS - to be honest I don't really want to do that because I still know a lot of people in there, and would have called them friends, though I'd begin to wonder after this. Either way I'm not really up for that for the sake of a few hundred quid. Bad Karma and all that.


Slim - if the clerk had accepted it without making the call that would be one thing - there are a huge range of bets out there and it would be very easy for them to make a mistake on something they're not sure of. That's why if she didn't make the call herself, I would have asked her to.


Supersars - mistakes can happen anywhere along the line. It's the equivalent of some Tesco lad pricing up bottle of whiskey at 25c instead of €25  - it probably is false advertising, but who'd want to chase them down over it?

[Hardy]

LS, being in the business, do you know if betting comes under contract law (and if it doesn't, why not)? How do bookies manage so frequently to welch (sorry – say "we made a mistake, we didn't mean it when we put up that price and accepted your money for it")?

In this case, I'd contend you had a contract that would stand up in court. An offer was made (PP offered you 8/11), the offer was accepted and a consideration was paid (you handed them your €5K!). There was even a receipt issued, though this is not a necessary condition of a valid contract and furthermore the validity of the offer was double-checked before it was confirmed. So I can't see how they can back out of that.

[supersarsfields]

In the Tesco's senario Tesco would have to accept the lower price. Which does happen quite a bit in Supermarkets. But normally when the customer argues then they just call the manager and have to honour the lower price while correcting the mistake to make sure no one else gets the discounted price. I suppose like you say it's a matter or not if you could be bothered arguing with them.

[Hardy]

Supersarsfields - I heard some consumer law expert recently saying that's a myth about them having to sell the item at the marked price. Apparently they're entitled to refuse the sale. I.e they can't force you to pay the higher (proper) price, but you can't force them to sell it to you at the lower price. They can just say "no sale".

[Lecale2]

I always thought betting is a gentleman's agreement rather than a contract and therefore is not enforcable in law. In this case they clearly should have paid out at 8/11. I use PP on-line quite a bit and never had any bother but you hard to hear of this sh1te going on.

[The Real SlimShady]

Deel Rover - There is an arbitration service called IBAS - to be honest I don't really want to do that because I still know a lot of people in there, and would have called them friends, though I'd begin to wonder after this. Either way I'm not really up for that for the sake of a few hundred quid. Bad Karma and all that.


Slim - if the clerk had accepted it without making the call that would be one thing - there are a huge range of bets out there and it would be very easy for them to make a mistake on something they're not sure of. That's why if she didn't make the call herself, I would have asked her to.


Supersars - mistakes can happen anywhere along the line. It's the equivalent of some Tesco lad pricing up bottle of whiskey at 25c instead of €25  - it probably is false advertising, but who'd want to chase them down over it?

f**k 'em, if thats the case they shouldnt be working there. if they accept the bet and the odds on the slip then thats what they MUST pay you. it isnt the punters fault they let silly dizzy bints work in bkies shaps!

[Lone Shark]

LS, being in the business, do you know if betting comes under contract law (and if it doesn't, why not)? How do bookies manage so frequently to welch (sorry – say "we made a mistake, we didn't mean it when we put up that price and accepted your money for it")?

In this case, I'd contend you had a contract that would stand up in court. An offer was made (PP offered you 8/11), the offer was accepted and a consideration was paid (you handed them your €5K!). There was even a receipt issued, though this is not a necessary condition of a valid contract and furthermore the validity of the offer was double-checked before it was confirmed. So I can't see how they can back out of that.

It doesn't come under contract law because that would make gambling debts legally enforceable from both sides. The "from both sides" bit is the crucial issue - in that environment I could walk into a bookie shop, lose the €100 I have in my pocket and then lose €5000 that I don't have trying to chase it. In theory bookies could take bets you can't afford and repossess your house, in the same way as a bank could for unpaid debts. So as a result, as a punter protection to stop addictive gamblers losing it all in one go, all bets fall under the category of "gentlemans agreements" in the eyes of the law.

The upshot of this is that no bookie ever legally has to pay you out on any bet, no matter how clear cut. If I walked into a bookie tomorrow and bet on Kerry to win the All Ireland football, as genuine a bet as you'll get, there is no law of the land that will force them to pay if Kerry win and they decide they don't want to. You could object to their license, and in that environment you'd probably succeed, but you still wouldn't get their money.

Obviously they want to be seen to play fair in order to make sure that punters keep coming back. I'm guessing keeping me coming back is not high on PP's agenda.


Slim, in an ideal world I'd agree with you, and like I said if I was the man making the decision, as I sometimes am if it's a GAA bet, I'll try to read the customer's intentions - if he was placing a bet in good faith I'll pay it out. If the indications are he was trying to pull the wool over the clerk's eyes, I'll treat his bet according to our rules, whatever that results in. Having said that, Ladbrokes (for example) have almost 1000 Shop staff in Ireland - Powers probably nearly as many. Of course you'd love to fill those with people who understand horse racing, sports, big brother, politics, soccer and everything else we bet on, but it's simply not practical. You could pay way more for all maths graduates and write in extra margin into our bets to cover the costs, but I suspect that wouldn't wash, nor should it.