Westminster Election 12th December 2019

[five points]

Both of those countries have access (or as good as) to the common market.

As will the UK, if they want it.

[RadioGAAGAA]

Dont they have special deals and pay for that privilege?

Yep.

[RadioGAAGAA]

Both of those countries have access (or as good as) to the common market.

As will the UK, if they want it.

That's the big question though isn't it.

By all appearances - Bozo and the ERJ want to move closer to the US.

They won't be able to have common market access and a FTA with the USA. The two are too incompatible.

[five points]

Both of those countries have access (or as good as) to the common market.

As will the UK, if they want it.

That's the big question though isn't it.

By all appearances - Bozo and the ERJ want to move closer to the US.

They won't be able to have common market access and a FTA with the USA. The two are too incompatible.

I suspect they'll do whatever they think will benefit the UK the most. Meanwhile as someone who is absolutely crippled with taxes here in ROI I'm still wondering where are these wonderful EU benefits that we're supposed to be enjoying.

[johnnycool]

Both of those countries have access (or as good as) to the common market.

As will the UK, if they want it.

That's the big question though isn't it.

By all appearances - Bozo and the ERJ want to move closer to the US.

They won't be able to have common market access and a FTA with the USA. The two are too incompatible.

I suspect they'll do whatever they think will benefit the UK the most. Meanwhile as someone who is absolutely crippled with taxes here in ROI I'm still wondering where are these wonderful EU benefits that we're supposed to be enjoying.

Do you drive at all?

[RadioGAAGAA]

Meanwhile as someone who is absolutely crippled with taxes here in ROI I'm still wondering where are these wonderful EU benefits that we're supposed to be enjoying.

I genuinely don't know how to respond to this.

[tbrick18]

In that scenario, regardless of political persuasion, if we were to have on offer a scenario where we could re-join Europe and have all the same benefits our neighbours in ROI have I think it would be very difficult to argue against.

I'm amazed by this view that EU citizens enjoy huge benefits that are the envy of everyone else. The EU is essentially a bloated bureaucratic middleman that levies taxes on member states and, in the case of both Ireland and the UK, pays out substantially less than they pay in.

In any of the fiscal studies carried out, and indeed in the leaked reports from government, all have pointed out that NI will be substantially worse off than it currently is with any form of Brexit. So regardless of what you think of the EU and it's benefits or lack thereof, for NI it seems it would benefit us more to be in the EU than outside it.
I think people don't really believe the studies or perhaps they haven't been explained well enough for there to be mass outrage at this, though we did vote remain in NI. But, as time goes on if this proves to be the case it could become apparent to everyone that we would be better off in Europe.
The easiest route for NI to be a member of the EU, is a UI.

[smelmoth]

No it isn't. It is completely unfair to put that pressure on a 10 year old. And lets be straight, what the Grammar system is doing is taking the best and easiest taught students and to f**k with the rest. It's laziness on behalf of the school and the teachers. It's dividing society on basis of intelligence and in some cases money, when it is already divided here on religion.

Name an alternative that works better.

Splitting up classes on the basis of intelligence is the sensible thing to do - otherwise the pace is too quick for the stupidest, and too slow for the smartest - meaning both are disadvantaged. Its a global economy. Wee Paddy from down the road isn't competing with wee Sammy from up the road. They are both competing with Chuck in the USA, Jian in China and Arhun from India.


Society already is divided on the basis of intelligence! What percent of idiots who can barely spell their own name do you think are in the top 5% of salaries?

Splitting classes based on ability can work. Matching the pace of work to the ability of the child in the subject can work. Name 1 outright grammar school that does either?

In the global economy what skills does NI need to compete? Do grammar schools provide these skills?

Outline the benefits as you see them of doing a single exam at 10 years old, hinging everything on the result and putting the child in school A where they are taught at a "grammar pace" but don't have the ability at say 15 of the kid that didn't do the test or didn't perform to their ability in it or was sick on the day but then exhibited or developed the ability after the age of 10?

Are you saying that you have thought about it and cannot think of a better system that grammar schools?

[seafoid]

With the benefit of hindsight the Unionists should have left Derry city, Throne and Fermanagh in the Free State if they wanted the thing to last.
And it was stupid not to make concessions to Nationalists in the early 60s.

  http://virtualmethodist.blogspot.com/2009/09/coasters.html

You coasted along
To larger houses, gadgets, more machines
To golf and weekend bungalows,
Caravans when the children were small,
the Mediterranean, later, with the wife.

You did not go to Church often,
Weddings were special;
But you kept your name on the books
Against eventualities;
And the parson called, or the curate.

You showed a sense of responsibility,
With subscriptions to worthwhile causes
And service in voluntary organisations;
And, anyhow, this did the business no harm,
No harm at all.
Relations were improving. A good
useful life. You coasted along.

You even had a friend of two of the other sort,
Coasting too: your ways ran parallel.
Their children and yours seldom met, though,
Being at different schools.
You visited each other, decent folk with a sense
Of humour. Introduced, even, to
One of their clergy. And then you smiled
In the looking-glass, admiring, a
Little moved by, your broadmindedness.
Your father would never have known
One of them. Come to think of it,
When you were young, your own home was never
Visited by one of the other sort.

Relations were improving. The annual processions
began to look rather like folk-festivals.

When that noisy preacher started,
he seemed old-fashioned, a survival.
Later you remarked on his vehemence,
a bit on the rough side.
But you said, admit, you said in the club,
'You know, there's something in what he says'.


And you who seldom had time to read a book,
what with reports and the colour-supplements,
denounced censorship.
And you who never had an adventurous thought
were positive that the church of the other sort
vetoes thought.
And you who simply put up with marriage
for the children's sake, deplored
the attitude of the other sort
to divorce.
You coasted along.

And all the time, though you never noticed,
The old lies festered;
the ignorant became more thoroughly infected;
there were gains, of course;
you never saw any go barefoot.

The government permanent, sustained
by the regular plebiscites of loyalty.
You always voted but never
put a sticker on your car;
a card in the window
would not have been seen from the street.
Faces changed on posters, names too, often,
but the same families, the same class of people.
A Minister once called you by your first name.
You coasted along
and the sores supperated and spread.


Now the fever is high and raging;
Who would have guessed it, coasting along?
The ignorant-sick thresh about in delirium
And tear at the scabs with dirty finger-nails.
The cloud of infection hangs over the city,
A quick change of wind and it
Might spill over the leafy suburbs.
You coasted along.

[smelmoth]

It's easy to forget that there was a point in time when only for the catholic education sector catholics in NI would not have been educated and they weren't fully funded to the 70's.

An interesting point of history but of zero relevance to how best to educate and look after our society today

[smelmoth]

There are 2 main dynamics at play. Demographics are reducing the Unionist share of population. English nationalism is destroying Britishness

NI was created to give a state to a single identity British population. Irrespective of the union or a UI what happens when the majority of elected reps are from a catholic nationalist background? In that scenario what do unionists do? They are already in a minority albeit the balance of power rests with the liberal unionist Alliance party. Tough days ahead for unionism and that's not related to continued membership of the UK. A UI is not inevitable but could be achieved. However unlike the NI state to succeed it must be based on inclusiveness of a British identity. We are a ways of that as yet.

Are Alliance a unionist party?

[tbrick18]

It's easy to forget that there was a point in time when only for the catholic education sector catholics in NI would not have been educated and they weren't fully funded to the 70's.

+1
Education was (and I hesitate to use the word) weaponised within Nationalism. It was seen as a way of climbing out from under the boot of Unionist oppression and largely it has worked.
CCMS facilitated the education of Catholics to a level not previously seen here and now generally speaking the Catholic education system provides an education to a higher level than the State system.

[five points]

In that scenario, regardless of political persuasion, if we were to have on offer a scenario where we could re-join Europe and have all the same benefits our neighbours in ROI have I think it would be very difficult to argue against.

I'm amazed by this view that EU citizens enjoy huge benefits that are the envy of everyone else. The EU is essentially a bloated bureaucratic middleman that levies taxes on member states and, in the case of both Ireland and the UK, pays out substantially less than they pay in.

In any of the fiscal studies carried out, and indeed in the leaked reports from government, all have pointed out that NI will be substantially worse off than it currently is with any form of Brexit. So regardless of what you think of the EU and it's benefits or lack thereof, for NI it seems it would benefit us more to be in the EU than outside it.
I think people don't really believe the studies or perhaps they haven't been explained well enough for there to be mass outrage at this, though we did vote remain in NI. But, as time goes on if this proves to be the case it could become apparent to everyone that we would be better off in Europe.
The easiest route for NI to be a member of the EU, is a UI.

Over many decades I have seen enough government and govt agency studies to be very suspicious of what they conclude and advise.

[Franko]

No it isn't. It is completely unfair to put that pressure on a 10 year old. And lets be straight, what the Grammar system is doing is taking the best and easiest taught students and to f**k with the rest. It's laziness on behalf of the school and the teachers. It's dividing society on basis of intelligence and in some cases money, when it is already divided here on religion.

Name an alternative that works better.

Splitting up classes on the basis of intelligence is the sensible thing to do - otherwise the pace is too quick for the stupidest, and too slow for the smartest - meaning both are disadvantaged. Its a global economy. Wee Paddy from down the road isn't competing with wee Sammy from up the road. They are both competing with Chuck in the USA, Jian in China and Arhun from India.


Society already is divided on the basis of intelligence! What percent of idiots who can barely spell their own name do you think are in the top 5% of salaries?

Just teach the kids, like they do in primary school. Splitting kids on academic ability is the easiest and laziest way out. If your child turned up to u-10 training and there was two groups. One for the best and one for the worst you'd be pissed or at least you should be. Kids learn by example and they learn from each other. Taking the highest achievers out actually limits their ability to learn.

Another well thought out post by our resident expert.

Jesus I must start following you around the board rolling my eyes at every contribution you make.

To reference an intellectual peer of yours, "Chat shit, get banged"

[Applesisapples]

There are 2 main dynamics at play. Demographics are reducing the Unionist share of population. English nationalism is destroying Britishness

NI was created to give a state to a single identity British population. Irrespective of the union or a UI what happens when the majority of elected reps are from a catholic nationalist background? In that scenario what do unionists do? They are already in a minority albeit the balance of power rests with the liberal unionist Alliance party. Tough days ahead for unionism and that's not related to continued membership of the UK. A UI is not inevitable but could be achieved. However unlike the NI state to succeed it must be based on inclusiveness of a British identity. We are a ways of that as yet.

Are Alliance a unionist party?

They say not but opting for the status quo is opting to maintain the union, you can't be agnostic on the union.