Down Club Hurling & Football

Started by Lecale2, November 10, 2006, 12:06:55 AM

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RadioGAAGAA

Quote from: downjim on October 15, 2019, 03:41:00 PM
I'm off today and bored so looking through league tables. 66 games in reserves leagues were conceded this year. That's crazy and participation in football needs to be addressed

Participation in sport in general is falling off a cliff.

Rugby, soccer, football (and I assume camogie/hurling too?) - all clubs are suffering - and most have very worrying age profiles as well.

It's a bigger social problem than just Down GAA.  :(
i usse an speelchekor

6th sam

Quote from: downjim on October 15, 2019, 03:41:00 PM
I'm off today and bored so looking through league tables. 66 games in reserves leagues were conceded this year. That's crazy and participation in football needs to be addressed

Reserves is a problem . Apart from the top clubs, unfortunately it doesn't capture the imagination. Sunday football has become unpopular in most areas because of Saturday / Sunday drinking culture, TV soccer and weekends away.
It's risky playing football Ill prepared , those unable to train hard due to other commitments etc., don't feel prepared or motivated to play on a Sunday . Even The Down over 40s doesn't help as a big squad plays for Down as opposed to their club reserve teams.
IMHO Top Reserve teams going to Div 4 is a non starter for the reasons mentioned by another poster above.
I think playing it on a Tuesday night alternating with minors might improve participation.
Renaming it development team/league. Area based in group stages then all county for graded latter stages , 13 a side options, functional eligibility change ie only those who play less than a half for seniors is expected/allowed to play next reserve game.
It's all about development and participation as opposed to winning the trophy  ie clubs are discouraged from playing active seniors but ensure those getting minimal senior match time are getting loads of football. And finally don't squeeze in reserve games when there are loads of senior and minor games


PAULD123

Gutted about the result but would never argue about it. Kilcoo were probably just about one point better from start to finish.

But I do believe the Point have the potential to win a championship. It's a fairly young team, most of them won the U21 championship only 5 years ago.

Year by year the Point have improved. This team has a few more years in them.

But all credit to Kilcoo and I will support them in Ulster, as I would for any of our county champions.

RadioGAAGAA

Quote from: 6th sam on October 15, 2019, 04:27:57 PM
I think playing it on a Tuesday night alternating with minors might improve participation.

I would have thought a Thursday would be better.

Pros
- might stop first teams training on the Thursday - too much training these days asks an unfair commitment IMO.
- manager should have a good idea of his 15 for Friday's senior game, so can release the subs to the reserve squad for the Thursday game.
- doesn't interfere with weekend

Cons
- travelling distances after work for a game is a balls. But can't really be got around unless you play Sat evening?
- manager of firsts might decree they train anyway and has a squad of 30 training for only ~20 of them to have a chance of matches any week.
i usse an speelchekor

Sandstorm

PaulD123, agree entirely with you. The Point are in the same position Kilcoo and Mayobridge were in before they won their first championship in the current era. They were knocking on the door for a number of years before they got their first, but when it happened they both pushed on and won a number. The Point can do the same, providing they can hold on to all potential players in their catchment area.

thewobbler

#32270
For what it's worth I think Saturday evenings have been a major improvement for reserve football. We'd our most consistent turn out for years.

Regular midweek doesn't work as it clashes with minor football, senior training and work. Sundays were too much of a struggle between hangovers, Sunday drinking, family commitments.

But if it was up to me I'd regionalise reserve football, with a first and second division in each board. All County league playoffs would see the top 2 in each board playing against each other semi-final and final. 15 a side where possible in D1, 13 a side in D2 unless both teams agree to 15.

All County championship would remain as is.

Travelling across the county for seconds football is a catch 22 for many clubs; players committing to 4-5 hours and when travelling up, half expecting the opposition not to field, so quite a few players just don't go, in case that happens. That in my lifetime of reserve football is the continual single biggest obstacle to players committing.

——

I'd have no interest in seeing seconds teams entering the ACFL. Kilcoo seconds would gain a lot more from playing Burren seconds and Clonduff seconds, than from bartering the bottom teams in the county for an hour every week. And that's before the cultural change required for lads, mentors and club people not to follow their firsts on a Friday night.

——

Id also regionalise divisions 3 and 4 of the ACFL for similar reasons. Combine all the teams and split them arbitrarily into a D3 Shimna and D3 Bann (doesn't matter what they're called).

Yep it would see a few hannerings  handed out when the 21st "ranked" team in the county meets the 44th. But I would guarantee the teams "ranked" 38-44 would have greater turnout from their less-interested players, if every other Friday evening wasn't a rush to the other end of the county. This can only improve those clubs.

Regionalisation of those leagues almost certainly  would work better on an arbitrary basis rather than along Divisional Board lines i.e. take the two sides farthest from each other and then put the 10-11 clubs closest to them into their divisions. Central teams like Dromara or the Fin might find themselves swapping divisions year on year, but there would be no harm in that.

6th sam

#32271
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on October 15, 2019, 05:30:55 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on October 15, 2019, 04:27:57 PM
I think playing it on a Tuesday night alternating with minors might improve participation.

I would have thought a Thursday would be better.

Pros
- might stop first teams training on the Thursday - too much training these days asks an unfair commitment IMO.
- manager should have a good idea of his 15 for Friday's senior game, so can release the subs to the reserve squad for the Thursday game.
- doesn't interfere with weekend

Cons
- travelling distances after work for a game is a balls. But can't really be got around unless you play Sat evening?
- manager of firsts might decree they train anyway and has a squad of 30 training for only ~20 of them to have a chance of matches any week.
The difficulty with Thursday is that fringe players may be asked to play two nights in a row.

On another note , the main reason for reserves struggling and we appear to be seeing more dropout is the rule that only final year minors can play adult football. This has completely hammered small clubs.it was supposedly to avoid burnout but other rules such as starred games takes the pressure of the tiny percentage of players susceptible to burnout , an additional easily policed rule that no player should play more than two games per week would easily avoid burnout. I am not aware of any evidence that introduction to adult club football at 16.5 created significant increased injury risk. In rural areas introducing 16/17 year olds to adult football with big numbers and higher quality training was a mainstay of  player Development . Now these lads only football is ~10 minor games , often in amalgamations which bring their own problems.
If GAA were serious about reducing injury risk and developing young players whilst support their bedrock rural clubs ,the most effective way was to change to 13 a side across the board , and allow physically mature 16/17 year olds to play senior. Soccer is a worldwide professional sport heavily financed and committed to player development, it's also probably a greater injury risk eg head/ankles etc, yet they have no age restriction that I am aware of?
GAA need to be ahead of the game in terms of player retention but it seems to me that there have been negative unintended consequences of recent rule changes

Smurfy123

Tough loss for us but very proud of the lads. They give it all and are a credit to the club. Great night all the same Sunday and yesterday and very much deserved. We will be back.
Our premier reserve team is poor and shoukd be much better. I think the top 3/4 teams in reserve football would compete high in division 3 and a certain thirds team as well from what I seen.
Saturday evening did not really work and I think Sundays were actually better

Lotto

#32273
Quote from: Smurfy123 on October 15, 2019, 06:25:41 PM
Tough loss for us but very proud of the lads. They give it all and are a credit to the club. Great night all the same Sunday and yesterday and very much deserved. We will be back.
Our premier reserve team is poor and shoukd be much better. I think the top 3/4 teams in reserve football would compete high in division 3 and a certain thirds team as well from what I seen.
Saturday evening did not really work and I think Sundays were actually better

Nothing like celebrating failure.

You missed one of the best opportunities for a county title. Kilcoo were there for the taking but your reluctance to go for the throat cost you. Far too conservative, safe and lacking belief.  You would have thought Barney would have had you in better shape. Burren and Clonduff will also be kicking themselves. They always reckon that in any broth, scum rises to the top.

Oglach

Whats wrong with you Lotto?
You're like a wee fella bullied at school and spends his time taking it out on Kilcoo GAC.
There's people you can talk to that help with the kind of issues you have.
Browsing through your posts it would appear you're a little depressed.
I'll help you... Suck it up you poisonous w**ker.

Last Caress

Quote from: Lotto on October 15, 2019, 08:59:25 PM
Quote from: Smurfy123 on October 15, 2019, 06:25:41 PM
Tough loss for us but very proud of the lads. They give it all and are a credit to the club. Great night all the same Sunday and yesterday and very much deserved. We will be back.
Our premier reserve team is poor and shoukd be much better. I think the top 3/4 teams in reserve football would compete high in division 3 and a certain thirds team as well from what I seen.
Saturday evening did not really work and I think Sundays were actually better

Nothing like celebrating failure.

You missed one of the best opportunities for a county title. Kilcoo were there for the taking but your reluctance to go for the throat cost you. Far too conservative, safe and lacking belief.  You would have thought Barney would have had you in better shape. Burren and Clonduff will also be kicking themselves. They always reckon that in any broth, scum rises to the top.
Is this the words of a true GAA lover?........... Didn't take long for the Trolling to return

outinfront

The Premier Reserve League is very competitive with good quality throughout. Yes some kickings occur but that's sport. I see no need to change this.  It's mainly made up from Clubs that have large enough numbers to field 3 teams and/or enough quality players to compete.

For clubs with smaller numbers and no interest in travelling there are the East Down and South Down leagues.  Made up of thirds teams from larger clubs and seconds teams from clubs with less numbers. Reserve champ. would be only time needed to travel too far. 

Honestly what more do people want? If you want to play senior football Div 4 - 1 you have to be willing to make some sacrifices along the way and that can mean travelling, taking some tankings, etc.  Maybe if clubs decide they don't want to do this or can't, then maybe they should be allowed entry to the regional divisions, but this could well result in kilcoo 3rds giving you a  kicking.  So who benefits? 

sdg

Reserve football needs to start in February, and have 7 or 8 games played, this will give young players and fringe men the chance to impress senior managers and get into their plans for the start of senior league in April.

DownFanatic

I think people are overestimating the potential strength of second string teams in the ACFL structure.
Remember that if a seconds' team enters into this structure then their games will be at the same time on a Friday night as their senior game.
Take for example if Kilcoo 1sts were in Division 1 and Kilcoo 2nds were in Division 4. Top 13 rule is applicable.
Say the Kilcoo 1sts manager has an injury list of 4/5 and yet still, as most do, wants to bring a panel of 25-28 to the senior game. That's the guts of 33 -35 players out of commission for the 2nds team for their game.
Not withstanding the 2nds squads' own potential injury list/unavailability. That would probably leave half of a 2nds team made up with 3rds players. Consistently this sort of team may be competitive enough at times in Division 4 but definitely not in Division 3.

bigarsedkeeper

Quote from: DownFanatic on October 16, 2019, 03:46:58 PM
I think people are overestimating the potential strength of second string teams in the ACFL structure.
Remember that if a seconds' team enters into this structure then their games will be at the same time on a Friday night as their senior game.
Take for example if Kilcoo 1sts were in Division 1 and Kilcoo 2nds were in Division 4. Top 13 rule is applicable.
Say the Kilcoo 1sts manager has an injury list of 4/5 and yet still, as most do, wants to bring a panel of 25-28 to the senior game. That's the guts of 33 -35 players out of commission for the 2nds team for their game.
Not withstanding the 2nds squads' own potential injury list/unavailability. That would probably leave half of a 2nds team made up with 3rds players. Consistently this sort of team may be competitive enough at times in Division 4 but definitely not in Division 3.

Mayobridge are the only one with a 3rds team strong enough for that.