NI soccer manager says they need to get out of windsor:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/6918727.stm
Looks like the IFA are starting to change on the issue of a new stadium
I thought that the IFA was keen on a move from windsor anyway.
Sure they wrote to Linfield claiming breach of the ridiculous lease already.
to be honest i think its the only logical solution they cant expext to have team appealing to the both sides of the community while its home ground is situated in th village, i no i wouldn feel safe goin to games there even i actually would have loved to have been at the england and spain games, th atmosphere in the ground seemed electric!
Quote from: nifan on July 27, 2007, 11:51:07 AM
I thought that the IFA was keen on a move from windsor anyway.
Sure they wrote to Linfield claiming breach of the ridiculous lease already.
why is the lease between the IFA and linfield ridiculous? if linfield failed to comply with the covenant to repair then the IFA are entitled to terminate the lease and linfield it would seem have no-one to blame but themselves. I suppose you'd need to read the lease and see who expressly had to do what, but i doubt the IFA would have taken this action without good justification. Anyway i agree this is a messy situation alright and it it's clear that the IFA want rid of windsor. If you want to encourage anyone to go to NI games then you need a state of the art stadium with accessible access. The current location in south belfast clearly does not provide for this.
Time to face facts. They only people who are opposed to moving from Windsor are the handful of hypocritical bigots on OWC who do not want to share a stadium with anyone of the catholic/irish tradition. Far too much time and space is allocated to these non entities, ffs their leader Mc Allister is on tv more often than Eamonn Holmes. These twats are on ego trips wallowing in their own self importance afforded to them by a media that should really know better. With a new stadium and jettisoning its unionist/loyalist exclusive baggage the IFA might lose a few hundred bigots and gain thousands of new fans potentially
Quote from: T Fearon on July 27, 2007, 12:30:27 PM
Time to face facts. They only people who are opposed to moving from Windsor are the handful of hypocritical bigots on OWC who do not want to share a stadium with anyone of the catholic/irish tradition. Far too much time and space is allocated to these non entities, ffs their leader Mc Allister is on tv more often than Eamonn Holmes. These twats are on ego trips wallowing in their own self importance afforded to them by a media that should really know better. With a new stadium and jettisoning its unionist/loyalist exclusive baggage the IFA might lose a few hundred bigots and gain thousands of new fans potentially
I fail to understand why NI fans are oppossed to a move from Windsor. They could propose that it is their spiritual home but look at the clubs in england that have moved to knew stadiums. derby moved from the baseball ground to pride park and liverpool are moving to stanley park provided they get planning permission. why? because they recognise that of you want to attract fans and keep the current ones coming then you need proper facilities. Windsor is falling to pieces. I mean football is in the entertainment industry. Would anyone go to a run down cinema where you would be snookered if a fire broke out? no, so why is football stadia any different. The NI fans should be delighted that so much money is being thrown into this stadium when not much revenue is going to be produced. Economically thinking, spening so much on a stadium when NI can only muster 13,000 for big games does not make much sense. They should appreciate everything they are getting.
Inisceithleann your argument would hold water if indeed North of Ireland "fans" were indeed football fans. They are first and foremost staunch unionists/loyalists who use a so called international football team as a badge of political identity. Therein lies the crux of the problem
Surely there is no reason to start another thread about Windsor while there is a perfectly good one about it already.
It's called 'The biggest shithole in Ireland'.
Tony i take your point and that is one of the reasons i'll never attend one of the North's games. But in fairness I worked with a few of the them and they were decent enough fellas and they dispised some of the loyalist twits who made windsor a cold house for catholics, and many of them weren't staunch unionists. They tried to get me to accompany them to a game but i politely declined. when i told them that i couldn't support the North as in my opinion it would be accepting the partition of ireland they accepted my argument. But i wouldn't say any of them used their support as a badge of political identity.
QuoteThey are first and foremost staunch unionists/loyalists who use a so called international football team as a badge of political identity. Therein lies the crux of the problem
"I have never attacked the NI fans" - Seems like yesterday you said that, in fact I believe it was.
You are a complete joke - actually scratch that you are a bigot.
Quotewhy is the lease between the IFA and linfield ridiculous?
Because it is a lease which is for nigh on 100 years and enables linfield to 15% of all match day profits.
The IFA should never have entered into it.
Not staunch loayalists?
Why then does the following take place:
Use of England's National Anthem.
Insertion of the words No Surrender into the aforementioned anthem
Continuous cries of No Surrender during games
Sacking their captain for organising an innocuous All Ireland team to play a friendly.
It is more than a coincidence that support for the North of Ireland team har burgeoned in recent years as the political union with Britain has manifestly weakened. As a Scottish psychologist explained having a so called international football team is one of the last remaining comfort blankets remaining to unionists
Tony you have just claimed me, my family and friends are not football fans.
We are in fact staunch unionist/loyalists who use a so called international football team as a badge of political identity.
You dont think thats bigotry?
QuoteContinuous cries of No Surrender during games
That ones even laughable - ive never heard this in my time.
QuoteSacking their captain for organising an innocuous All Ireland team to play a friendly.
Discussed recently, and quite balls.
Quote from: T Fearon on July 27, 2007, 12:30:27 PM
Time to face facts. They only people who are opposed to moving from Windsor are the handful of hypocritical bigots on OWC who do not want to share a stadium with anyone of the catholic/irish tradition. Far too much time and space is allocated to these non entities, ffs their leader Mc Allister is on tv more often than Eamonn Holmes. These twats are on ego trips wallowing in their own self importance afforded to them by a media that should really know better. With a new stadium and jettisoning its unionist/loyalist exclusive baggage the IFA might lose a few hundred bigots and gain thousands of new fans potentially
Time for you to face facts. You talk utter bollox.
No thats fact. As with every statement there are exceptions but I believe my description fits the typical North of Ireland soccer fan
Well I tend to disagree, and I know a lot more of them than you.
I despise the scum element of our support as much as anyone, but your constant one-upmanship and bigotry is something i despise as well
QuoteThese twats are on ego trips wallowing in their own self importance afforded to them by a media that should really know better.
Sorry I just reread the thread and noticed this nugget from Tony Fearon. Pots and Kettle spring to mind
Quote from: T Fearon on July 27, 2007, 12:56:29 PM
Inisceithleann your argument would hold water if indeed North of Ireland "fans" were indeed football fans. They are first and foremost staunch unionists/loyalists who use a so called international football team as a badge of political identity. Therein lies the crux of the problem
You still haven't explained how Northern Ireland fans display 'exclusively unionist symbols' from a previous thread.
That old pots and kettle cliche is a bit worn. After all they are mostly silver these days, but then again someone with a 17th century mindset would hardly realise that
i didnt specify a colour....
There are suggestions that, in any new stadium, only neutral flags and anthems will be flown / played. How would this go down with GAA and more vociferous soccer people, I doubt if it would annoy the rugger buggers too much.
As an strong irish nationalist, I have to accept that people on this island think of themselves as british, and are proud to sing 'their anthem'. Similarly i am a proud irish man and am proud to sing the irish anthem at GAA matches. That does not make me a bigot. Most catholics in the North support the ROI and i think we should continue to do so. I think we should let NI fans continue to support 'their national team'. The fact that they do so causes no offense to me. All supporting organisations has their fair few disgraceful fans but it is football at the end of the day. Lets not forget that.
Quote from: T Fearon on July 27, 2007, 01:14:20 PM
Not staunch loayalists?
Why then does the following take place:
Use of England's National Anthem.
There is no use of the English National Anthem. It is the anthem of the United Kingdom. Don't let facts get in the way of your prejudices. Just a note on the anthem. There is a continious debate among Northern Ireland fans on what anthem should be used. Some in favour of leaving things as they (does not make them Staunch Loyalists btw) and others who would prefer something more specific to Northern Ireland.
Quote from: T Fearon on July 27, 2007, 01:14:20 PM
Insertion of the words No Surrender into the aforementioned anthem
To be utterly condemned and indeed has been by many on OWC.
Quote from: T Fearon on July 27, 2007, 01:14:20 PM
Continuous cries of No Surrender during games
Once again utter bollox.
Quote from: T Fearon on July 27, 2007, 01:14:20 PM
Sacking their captain for organising an innocuous All Ireland team to play a friendly.
Lies
Are any of you ni fans unionists? or loyalists?
Quote from: inisceithleann on July 27, 2007, 01:04:11 PM
They tried to get me to accompany them to a game but i politely declined. when i told them that i couldn't support the North as in my opinion it would be accepting the partition of ireland they accepted my argument. But i wouldn't say any of them used their support as a badge of political identity.
Do you support the Republic of Ireland football team? If you do does this not show your acceptance in the partition of Ireland?
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 27, 2007, 01:37:00 PM
Quote from: inisceithleann on July 27, 2007, 01:04:11 PM
They tried to get me to accompany them to a game but i politely declined. when i told them that i couldn't support the North as in my opinion it would be accepting the partition of ireland they accepted my argument. But i wouldn't say any of them used their support as a badge of political identity.
Do you support the Republic of Ireland football team? If you do does this not show your acceptance in the partition of Ireland?
Yes I am a fan of the Republic of Ireland and yes in doing so it also recognises the partition of ireland? But it is a better alternative than supporing the North with there being no union jacks, british anthems etc, you have to accept that?
Quote from: T Fearon on July 27, 2007, 12:56:29 PM
Inisceithleann your argument would hold water if indeed North of Ireland "fans" were indeed football fans. They are first and foremost staunch unionists/loyalists who use a so called international football team as a badge of political identity. Therein lies the crux of the problem
I know what you mean, Mr Fearon. Bishop Tony Farquhar always says that's why he's such a big fan of the Northern Ireland soccer team.
Quote from: An Fear Rua on July 27, 2007, 01:35:17 PM
Are any of you ni fans unionists? or loyalists?
Of course. Not everyone is "staunch" as tony claims:
QuoteThey are first and foremost staunch unionists/loyalists who use a so called international football team as a badge of political identity.
If i said that GAA fans where first and foremost republicans an the GAA is a badge of political identity how would that go down?
Quote from: inisceithleann on July 27, 2007, 01:41:28 PM
Yes I am a fan of the Republic of Ireland and yes in doing so it also recognises the partition of ireland? But it is a better alternative than supporing the North with there being no union jacks, british anthems etc, you have to accept that?
Im not knocking you just interested in your take re supporting the Republic and the partition of Ireland.
Re flags & anthems. There is a fan driven Sea of Green initiative and people have been encouraged not to take the Union Flag to internationals. I have already explained the debate around the anthem. I for one would prefer a change.
Quote from: inisceithleann on July 27, 2007, 01:41:28 PM
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 27, 2007, 01:37:00 PM
Quote from: inisceithleann on July 27, 2007, 01:04:11 PM
They tried to get me to accompany them to a game but i politely declined. when i told them that i couldn't support the North as in my opinion it would be accepting the partition of ireland they accepted my argument. But i wouldn't say any of them used their support as a badge of political identity.
Do you support the Republic of Ireland football team? If you do does this not show your acceptance in the partition of Ireland?
Yes I am a fan of the Republic of Ireland and yes in doing so it also recognises the partition of ireland? But it is a better alternative than supporing the North with there being no union jacks, british anthems etc, you have to accept that?
FAI can pick from any of the 32 counties ,hardly partitionist ...... ;)
Quote from: An Fear Rua on July 27, 2007, 01:56:26 PM
FAI can pick from any of the 32 counties ,hardly partitionist ...... ;)
I think you will find this is currently being disputed with no ruling as yet.
Quote from: nifan on July 27, 2007, 01:46:42 PM
Quote from: An Fear Rua on July 27, 2007, 01:35:17 PM
Are any of you ni fans unionists? or loyalists?
Of course. Not everyone is "staunch" as tony claims:
QuoteThey are first and foremost staunch unionists/loyalists who use a so called international football team as a badge of political identity.
If i said that GAA fans where first and foremost republicans an the GAA is a badge of political identity how would that go down?
you would have to qualify it with nationalist or republican to even the comment up for starters, saying that it would go down quite well, it would be the truth .
So Tonys right then that you are mostly unionist or loyalist, and on that basis pro ni in the uk, and would maybe see a ni football team as an expression of that ideal, even though it was never originally formed for that purpose, but sorta grew into the position?
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 27, 2007, 02:00:47 PM
Quote from: An Fear Rua on July 27, 2007, 01:56:26 PM
FAI can pick from any of the 32 counties ,hardly partitionist ...... ;)
I think you will find this is currently being disputed with no ruling as yet.
It may be being disputed but the outcome is quite clear, that the FAI can pick people born on this Island. FIFA are never going to overrrule an act of law i.e what was created by the Good Friday Agreement. If someone has an irish passport then they are an irish citizen and have the exact same status as anyone currently playing for the Repbublic.
The IFA split from the main footballing organisation in Ireland by its refusal to embrace an all ireland footballing administration and one team concept. It was set up to cater for unionists only and does to this day (and that is why the Football for All Campaign is false and indeed offensive). Derry City and Belfast Celtic were both forced to withdraw from the Irish league for political/sectarian reasons and Celtic players such as Neil Lennon and Anton Rogan have been subject to shameful abuse and a death threat. It all boils down to this, should any Football Association affiliated to UEFA and FIFA exist purely to promote football or to promote football with a politicial undercurrent?
Also there is no such team as the "Republic of Ireland" The scoreboard at Lansdowne Road/Croke Park describes this team as "Ireland" as do the match programmes, and the team can be selected from all 32 counties of Ireland and regulalry features in the squad Derry's Darren Gibson plus a host of others born in the 6 counties in under age teams
Quote from: inisceithleann on July 27, 2007, 02:10:48 PM
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 27, 2007, 02:00:47 PM
Quote from: An Fear Rua on July 27, 2007, 01:56:26 PM
FAI can pick from any of the 32 counties ,hardly partitionist ...... ;)
I think you will find this is currently being disputed with no ruling as yet.
It may be being disputed but the outcome is quite clear, that the FAI can pick people born on this Island. FIFA are never going to overrrule an act of law i.e what was created by the Good Friday Agreement. If someone has an irish passport then they are an irish citizen and have the exact same status as anyone currently playing for the Repbublic.
For some clarity why don't you read the
seventy odd page thread on OWC. For further clarity why don't you read FIFA's rules.
Quote from: An Fear Rua on July 27, 2007, 02:03:15 PM
you would have to qualify it with nationalist or republican to even the comment up for starters, saying that it would go down quite well, it would be the truth .
So it isnt about the sport, thats an aside as part of the nationalist/republican festivities.
Certainly isnt amongst my mates who ar ethere for the sport, and the numerous people on here who have professed it is about the sport for them as well.
So you now say the GAA is a political organisation and the sporting is secondry?
Quote
So Tonys right then that you are mostly unionist or loyalist, and on that basis pro ni in the uk, and would maybe see a ni football team as an expression of that ideal, even though it was never originally formed for that purpose, but sorta grew into the position?
I have never claimed that the majority of NI arent unionist/loyalist. Not all are.
Tony claimed we where all staunch unionist/loyalists, and that it wasnt about supporting NI it was simply a badge of political aliegence - implying that we dont give a shit about the football in effect.
Quote from: inisceithleann on July 27, 2007, 02:10:48 PM
It may be being disputed but the outcome is quite clear, that the FAI can pick people born on this Island. FIFA are never going to overrrule an act of law i.e what was created by the Good Friday Agreement. If someone has an irish passport then they are an irish citizen and have the exact same status as anyone currently playing for the Repbublic.
A passport doesnt necessarily cut it anymore, to stop countries "buying" international players (Dubai buying brazilians for example)
Do any of the Northern born or based posters who support the Republic of Ireland soccer team not feel a bit nomadic if they go to or watch Republic of Ireland games? They might feel that it's their team, but the team itself and South of Ireland born and based fans don't really agree?
Quote from: nifan on July 27, 2007, 02:25:00 PM
Quote from: inisceithleann on July 27, 2007, 02:10:48 PM
It may be being disputed but the outcome is quite clear, that the FAI can pick people born on this Island. FIFA are never going to overrrule an act of law i.e what was created by the Good Friday Agreement. If someone has an irish passport then they are an irish citizen and have the exact same status as anyone currently playing for the Repbublic.
A passport doesnt necessarily cut it anymore, to stop countries "buying" international players (Dubai buying brazilians for example)
Maybe so, but because if the politically sensitive nature of the irish situation I have no doubt that they will make an exception in this situation. Do you really want people playing for you when their allegiances lie else where? Just let players play for the team they feel is their national team.
Quote from: T Fearon on July 27, 2007, 02:11:16 PM
Also there is no such team as the "Republic of Ireland" The scoreboard at Lansdowne Road/Croke Park describes this team as "Ireland" as do the match programmes, and the team can be selected from all 32 counties of Ireland and regulalry features in the squad Derry's Darren Gibson plus a host of others born in the 6 counties in under age teams
;D ;D ;D
So the scoreboard says it then it's true.
It seems FIFA think differently
http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/ranking/lastranking/gender=m/fullranking.htmll (http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/ranking/lastranking/gender=m/fullranking.htmll)
Couldn't resist posting this link btw 8)
It seems UEFA agree with FIFA
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/euro/standings/round=2241/group=2633.html (http://www.uefa.com/competitions/euro/standings/round=2241/group=2633.html)
As for Gibson. How many appearences has he made to date? He can carry as many cones and move as many nets in training all he likes.
Quote from: GweylTah on July 27, 2007, 02:28:05 PM
Do any of the Northern born or based posters who support the Republic of Ireland soccer team not feel a bit nomadic if they go to or watch Republic of Ireland games? They might feel that it's their team, but the team itself and South of Ireland born and based fans don't really agree?
I'm Irish. Why would I feel 'nomadic' in any part of Ireland? :-\ If there were no Mayo or Galway players on the team, should some westerners feel 'nomadic' when they're sitting in Lansdowne or Croker? :-\
Quote from: GweylTah on July 27, 2007, 02:28:05 PM
Do any of the Northern born or based posters who support the Republic of Ireland soccer team not feel a bit nomadic if they go to or watch Republic of Ireland games? They might feel that it's their team, but the team itself and South of Ireland born and based fans don't really agree?
Everyone i know born in the south feels that they team is for everyone born on this island. One fella from dublin said to me that if you support a united ireland rugby or basketball team then you are more than welcome to support the Republic. I think most southern born people welcome the support they get from the North. I remember roy keane in his autobiography appreciating the support the team got from the North. I for one do not feel at all nomadic when at landsdowne/croker.
Quote from: nifan on July 27, 2007, 02:23:29 PM
Quote from: An Fear Rua on July 27, 2007, 02:03:15 PM
you would have to qualify it with nationalist or republican to even the comment up for starters, saying that it would go down quite well, it would be the truth .
So it isnt about the sport, thats an aside as part of the nationalist/republican festivities.
Certainly isnt amongst my mates who ar ethere for the sport, and the numerous people on here who have professed it is about the sport for them as well.
So you now say the GAA is a political organisation and the sporting is secondry?
Quote
So Tonys right then that you are mostly unionist or loyalist, and on that basis pro ni in the uk, and would maybe see a ni football team as an expression of that ideal, even though it was never originally formed for that purpose, but sorta grew into the position?
I have never claimed that the majority of NI arent unionist/loyalist. Not all are.
Tony claimed we where all staunch unionist/loyalists, and that it wasnt about supporting NI it was simply a badge of political aliegence - implying that we dont give a shit about the football in effect.
So you now say the GAA is a political organisation and the sporting is secondry? I didnt say anything, you alluded to it in a whatabboutery fashion
Thats the tricky bit isnt it, all depends on how everone is interpreting the labels being bandied about. Does unionist mean, political active unionist or is it just another way of saying prod....
Everyone know exactly what Fearon is saying, he just happens to be very good at presenting it in an inflammatory way.
At the end of the day anything marked and marketed as "Northern Ireland" is a representation of being pro partition, and either uk unionist or Ulster nationalist, be it football team, or the British chicken from Co.Tyrone that Tescos sell - none of which is appealing to the vast majority of nationalists/republicans/catholics(insert label most relevant to interpretation)
At the end of the day, you might be the best footballers in the world, and the friendliest of chaps etc, many still wont cross the road to watch/participate/promote ni. Its as simple as this they dont like it the concept.
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 27, 2007, 02:16:59 PM
For some clarity why don't you read the seventy odd page thread on OWC. For further clarity why don't you read FIFA's rules.
Why? Does volume imply clarity?
Fearon is a tool annd there is nothing wrong with supporting OWC. But neither is there anything wrong with a nationalist feeling uncomfortable in that surrounding (through no fault of the supporters) due flags, anthems, emblems or predominance of one identity among the supporters. Neither is there anything wrong with Nationalist feeling more comfortable following the FAI XI. Get over it all around.
The Republic is not "just a foreign country" for a substational number of Northern Ireland citizens. That is a fact (one that FIFA will in due course accept). Equally for many in the Northern Ireland it is in itself a country and they will follow the IFA XI.
Happy days.
/Jim.
Supporting the Republic of Ireland doesnt mean you support partition at all, thats rubbish.
This team represents the part of the Island whose elected politicians have a goal to re-unite ireland.
Plain and simple.
In fairness most of my mates support the ROI and I dont have a problem with it (some of my friends have been happy to come along to NI games, and one is a current block booker for a number of years now)
They identify themselves as Irish and they support the team they have supported all their life - as I do.
Didnt enjoy it when they where miles above us in the rankings - i got dogs abuse though.
AFR - you said fearon was correct when he said that NI fans see the NI team as a badge of political allegience more than a team. Well you could I suppose argue that any national team will have an aspect of that, but the implication of tony was clear as day.
As I said the same implication would be that GAA is mainly asserting your nationalism rather than being part of a sporting organization.
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 27, 2007, 02:16:59 PM
For some clarity why don't you read the seventy odd page thread on OWC. For further clarity why don't you read FIFA's rules.
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on July 27, 2007, 02:40:49 PM
Why? Does volume imply clarity?
Seventy pages would indicate that it is a complictated topic. Reading the thread will confim this.
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on July 27, 2007, 02:40:49 PM
Happy days.
/Jim.
Nice that you signed off with the name of a Northern Ireland fanzine. Happy Days indeed Jim ;)
Reading 70 pages of OWC waffle is enough to kill a man ;)
Quote from: his holiness nb on July 27, 2007, 03:02:35 PM
Reading 70 pages of OWC waffle is enough to kill a man ;)
Sure you can make a start after 4.00 when there is nobody here to talk to you ;)
Quote from: nifan on July 27, 2007, 02:50:44 PM
AFR - you said fearon was correct when he said that NI fans see the NI team as a badge of political allegience more than a team. Well you could I suppose argue that any national team will have an aspect of that, but the implication of tony was clear as day.
As I said the same implication would be that GAA is mainly asserting your nationalism rather than being part of a sporting organization.
Yep , I agree with Fearon, but not his posting style, I believe that the majority of ni fans, see their football team, representing what they see as their country, as an extension of their political beliefs. Happy to be proven wrong if thats not the case.
As for the GAA, as Sammy regularly tells us, the GAA is all about promoting a national identiy through Gaelic Games and native pastimes, dance, language and song, its clearly states it in the basic aim. Its an organisation that includes sport, its always been very open about its nationalism.
Support for ni as an entity (incl any sporting teams), is an extension of support for particular political point of view, whether conscious or unconsciously. Hence, support for ni is primarlily made up of those of who pro union/ulster nationalist/anti Irish Nationalism/against reunification. Theres no real debate to be had, its quite obvious. They are linked, in the case of OWC some will see the football as the main driver for the support, some will see the political statement that support makes as the main driver, all will be touched by both aspects to varying degrees. Exactly the same aspects are true of the GAA, but the Gaa is pretty secure in the knowledge that its not going to be taken away from its members , IMHO not so true for ni fans, or indeed ni brands, or indeed ni, time and the people affected/afflicted will tell on that one.
Hypthotheical question(s) for you, Imagine that we achieve a UI, and FIFA sanctions that we can maintain two football teams, nothing would change in that respect(it would operate as it does now). Would the majority of these only in it for the sport ni fans be happy? after all its only a football team .
or maybe we have a CIS (Commenwealth of Independant states) team like they had at the breakup of the USSR, as opposed to an "All Ireland team", reckon anyone would go for that?
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 27, 2007, 03:06:08 PM
Sure you can make a start after 4.00 when there is nobody here to talk to you ;)
Nah Gabriel wil be tuning in from Canada then to tell me all aboot his day!
The big question is What the IFA must do to raise the support base of its team? It seesm to have dawned at least on Mr Wells (if not the other fcukwits who run the IFA, mainly bingo callers at Junior Clubs etc) that the current level of support (13,000 which may well reduce dramatically after the inevitable defeats away to Spain, Sweden and Iceland) represents an revenue stream that is insufficient to run football in the six counties. I would challenge him to think the unthinkable and divest the IFA of its ludicrous Ban on Sunday soccer, get out of the Village area as soon as possible (ie Windsor Park) and depoliticise the team by removing he exclsuively unionist monocultural trappings and hence produce a team that both communities might be able to owe allegiance to.
QuoteYep , I agree with Fearon, but not his posting style, I believe that the majority of ni fans, see their football team, representing what they see as their country, as an extension of their political beliefs. Happy to be proven wrong if thats not the case.
I agree with you to a degree, and I guess its more fearons one sided view of things that is the problem.
As i said any support of a national team carries a political belief based on how you identify yourself - as i said before it doesnt actually bother me when friends support the ROI, I identify myself as N Irish and am happy to do so, as such I have a support of NI teams.
Fearons implication was certainly that as opposed to those football fans who follow other teams (the roi especially) NI fans are in it for nefarious reasons.
Quote from: T Fearon on July 27, 2007, 03:51:16 PM
I would challenge him to think the unthinkable and divest the IFA of its ludicrous Ban on Sunday soccer, get out of the Village area as soon as possible (ie Windsor Park) and depoliticise the team by removing he exclsuively unionist monocultural trappings and hence produce a team that both communities might be able to owe allegiance to.
Can we expect to see you in your NI top supporting NI at the games then tony?
Quote from: T Fearon on July 27, 2007, 03:51:16 PM
depoliticise the team by removing he exclsuively unionist monocultural trappings and hence produce a team that both communities might be able to owe allegiance to.
Once again I ask you to show me how the Northern Ireland football team or it's supporters display 'exclusively Unionist monocultural trappings'. .
The Northern Ireland football team itself is made up of members of both prominent communtiies in Northern Ireland.
Quote from: T Fearon on July 27, 2007, 03:51:16 PM
The big question is What the IFA must do to raise the support base of its team? It seesm to have dawned at least on Mr Wells (if not the other fcukwits who run the IFA, mainly bingo callers at Junior Clubs etc) that the current level of support (13,000 which may well reduce dramatically after the inevitable defeats away to Spain, Sweden and Iceland) represents an revenue stream that is insufficient to run football in the six counties. I would challenge him to think the unthinkable and divest the IFA of its ludicrous Ban on Sunday soccer, get out of the Village area as soon as possible (ie Windsor Park) and depoliticise the team by removing he exclsuively unionist monocultural trappings and hence produce a team that both communities might be able to owe allegiance to.
And then what???? its still going to be something a vast majority of nationalists/republicans/catholics wont support for the reasons outlined above. The only way that all members of society will get behind the same team, is when there is only one team to get behind.
Your not one bit interested in following a NI team unionist trappings or not, neither am I, difference is your using to stir shit.
Answer me this Fearon, if the IFA did all the above, and made the games exactly to your requirements what excuse would you use then? Or would ou be honest and admit that you wont go because of your a believer in Irish Nationalism?
Tony it's time you put a new record on. We get the point by now after years of brow-beating and letters in the papers. You don't support the NI team - last I checked no-one was forcing you to! Move on...
Fact 1. I have attended many games, both International and club, at Windsor Park in the past, and have even enjoyed some, and have even availed of hospitality in the Linfield FC Viewing lounge (free gratis of course) during an Irish Cup Final. But at no time have I felt any affinity with the team sadly.
Now I can categorically state that if the English National anthem disappears, and the union jacks and bastardised Ulster flags, and the team is positively trying to represent all communities in an apolitical manner, then it would go a long way to earning my goodwill and perhaps active support but under the status quo this will never happen
How can you support the ROI tony - you claim it represents Ireland, but it fails to ne apolitical - i dont see all communities of the island represented :o
How did you manage to go to all those games in the "village" tony
Quote from: nifan on July 27, 2007, 04:22:35 PM
How can you support the ROI tony - you claim it represents Ireland, but it fails to ne apolitical - i dont see all communities of the island represented :o
Nifan, in fairness thats hardly the fault of the ROI !
If we had our way it would be all one country, as per the goals of our main political parties.
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 27, 2007, 04:00:38 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on July 27, 2007, 03:51:16 PM
depoliticise the team by removing he exclsuively unionist monocultural trappings and hence produce a team that both communities might be able to owe allegiance to.
Once again I ask you to show me how the Northern Ireland football team or it's supporters display 'exclusively Unionist monocultural trappings'. .
Are you, by any chance, blind?
Quote from: his holiness nb on July 27, 2007, 04:28:36 PM
Nifan, in fairness thats hardly the fault of the ROI !
If we had our way it would be all one country, as per the goals of our main political parties.
Im asking about representation of all communities in Ireland. If it is to be one, then all would have to be represented.
Quote from: nifan on July 27, 2007, 04:59:24 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on July 27, 2007, 04:28:36 PM
Nifan, in fairness thats hardly the fault of the ROI !
If we had our way it would be all one country, as per the goals of our main political parties.
Im asking about representation of all communities in Ireland. If it is to be one, then all would have to be represented.
Lets not get into why they cant be represented ::)
You know this is not the fault of the FAI
I am being slightly faecetious - tony reckoned in the past ROI flags should be on display at NI games also.
The real Ireland team is open to all, plays in a carnival atmosphere devoid of sectarianism or politicised chanting, under a flag which signifies unity equality and peace between Orange and Green.
I wonder will they be looking to use Croke Park between grounds, we could introduce Soccerheads to GAA double headers, have NI V Whoever doubling up with ROI V Whoever, and they could cheer oneanother on, bliss :D
Quote from: nifan on July 27, 2007, 05:19:02 PM
I am being slightly faecetious - tony reckoned in the past ROI flags should be on display at NI games also.
Would that have a similar effect as to when the Ring was thrown into the Mt Doom volcano :)
ni shouldn't have a team (as i duck behind the couch), nor should scotland wales or england. there should be one uk team then everyone who feels their british they can support it and everyone who feels their irish can support the irish team... on the bright side for ni fans if this came to pass they would be one uk league and belfast might get a premiership team...
Quote from: Orior on July 27, 2007, 04:56:35 PM
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 27, 2007, 04:00:38 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on July 27, 2007, 03:51:16 PM
depoliticise the team by removing he exclsuively unionist monocultural trappings and hence produce a team that both communities might be able to owe allegiance to.
Once again I ask you to show me how the Northern Ireland football team or it's supporters display 'exclusively Unionist monocultural trappings'. .
Are you, by any chance, blind?
OK. I'll ask you then. How do the Northern Ireland football team or its supporters display 'exclusively Unionist monocultural trappings'?
Quote from: inisceithleann on July 27, 2007, 12:42:49 PM
I fail to understand why NI fans are oppossed to a move from Windsor.
In my experience, only a minority of NI fans are opposed to a move from Windsor - and at least some of those that are may also be Linfield fans.
What we overwhelmingly want is a modern stadium, to a suitable design, with a realistic capacity, in the right location.
The Maze, which is being forced on soccer without any consultation or consideration, will only meet one of these (modern). Moreover, if we are required to commit to a long-term lease to the Maze, and it turns out to be the White Elephant we are predicting, then it will screw us financially for years to come.
Far better and more cost-effective all-round simply to give us our "share" of the Maze Stadium money to allow us to occupy a suitable stadium (in Belfast), with the equivalent share to GAA and Rugby to do with whatever they like.
Failing that, the fall back position of NI fans is to spend a few millions refurbishing the North Stand roof and building new South and Railway stands at Windsor, to give us a 20-25k capacity. This is by no means perfect, but if needs must...
Quote from: inisceithleann on July 27, 2007, 01:04:11 PM
Tony i take your point and that is one of the reasons i'll never attend one of the North's games. But in fairness I worked with a few of the them and they were decent enough fellas and they dispised some of the loyalist twits who made windsor a cold house for catholics, and many of them weren't staunch unionists. They tried to get me to accompany them to a game but i politely declined. when i told them that i couldn't support the North as in my opinion it would be accepting the partition of ireland they accepted my argument. But i wouldn't say any of them used their support as a badge of political identity.
IC, do you really think that your workmates who, as you say, are "decent enough fellas" would ask you to accompany them if it were going to be that bad an experience for you? I know from personal experience that it is nothing like that these days and just as they wouldn't want you to feel uncomfortable, neither would they wish theirselves to be embarrassed, either.
I don't imagine they really want to "convert" you, either, since they presumably respect your preference for the ROI team.
Rather, I imagine they are actually proud of what a good and enjoyable atmosphere is to be had, plus how well the team is playing, and they want you to enjoy it, too. If nothing else, the offer of a ticket when they are so hard to get is quite generous.
If they repeat the offer, I would urge you to accept what is merely as an opportunity to accompany some friends to a sports match. You could even bring one of those chequered Green and White Fermanagh flags which were so prominent a couple of years back (a mate of mine is never seen without his at NI matches, btw)
And if this all seems a bit "unreal", is it any more unlikely than that they might enjoy themselves somewhat if you invited them to a big GAA match in return?
Quote from: inisceithleann on July 27, 2007, 01:33:57 PM
As an strong irish nationalist, I have to accept that people on this island think of themselves as british, and are proud to sing 'their anthem'. Similarly i am a proud irish man and am proud to sing the irish anthem at GAA matches. That does not make me a bigot. Most catholics in the North support the ROI and i think we should continue to do so. I think we should let NI fans continue to support 'their national team'. The fact that they do so causes no offense to me. All supporting organisations has their fair few disgraceful fans but it is football at the end of the day. Lets not forget that.
I, too, am a proud Irishman. As such, I am particularly proud to follow the NI soccer team, since soccer is my great passion and the NI team represents my own wee bit of this world.
As it happens though, I am also interested in rugby and proudly follow the Ireland rugby team.
When it comes to the anthems, I don't particularly care for GSTQ at Windsor (I have long since felt we should have a particularly NI tune), but I respect it, since it is only 90 seconds before the real business of the 90 minutes starts. (In fact, I'm often in the loo for a last-minute emptying of the old bladder when the band is playing!)
Similarly, when they play the Soldiers Song (twice!) at Lansdowne before rugby internationals. I don't feel anything it, but my attitude is "Stand Up, Shut Up, then Sit Down", as a simple mark of respect.
How do I reconcile my support for both NI and Ireland? Simple, really: I just accept that each sport is administered on a different basis and cheer the boys in green, since I don't feel my presence is making any political statement to anyone. In fact, the politics of the fans around me at Windsor or Lansdowne are of no interest to me, nor mine any business of theirs.
As such, I imagine that is how the likes of Gerry Armstrong (one of my all-time sporting heroes) reconciles his pride at represented his local club at Croke Park whilst a youngster, with his pride at representing NI in numerous internationals whilst an adult.
Quote from: An Fear Rua on July 27, 2007, 01:56:26 PM
FAI can pick from any of the 32 counties ,hardly partitionist ...... ;)
The FAI has yet to select anyone from the 6 not otherwise connected by birth, parents/grandparents or residence to the 26 for their senior* team. This may be because none as yet has been good enough, but it may also be because they are not yet confident that such a player would be eligible.
Indeed, if it should turn out that such a player were ineligible, it could lead to the ROI team being docked points, or even disqualified from any competition in which the player(s) had been selected.
The issue has yet to be resolved by FIFA, which has been asked, but seems in no great hurry to decide.
* - I say "senior", since the eligibility and switching rules are different for under-age players.
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 27, 2007, 11:08:49 PM
Quote from: inisceithleann on July 27, 2007, 01:33:57 PM
As an strong irish nationalist, I have to accept that people on this island think of themselves as british, and are proud to sing 'their anthem'. Similarly i am a proud irish man and am proud to sing the irish anthem at GAA matches. That does not make me a bigot. Most catholics in the North support the ROI and i think we should continue to do so. I think we should let NI fans continue to support 'their national team'. The fact that they do so causes no offense to me. All supporting organisations has their fair few disgraceful fans but it is football at the end of the day. Lets not forget that.
I, too, am a proud Irishman. As such, I am particularly proud to follow the NI soccer team, since soccer is my great passion and the NI team represents my own wee bit of this world.
As it happens though, I am also interested in rugby and proudly follow the Ireland rugby team.
When it comes to the anthems, I don't particularly care for GSTQ at Windsor (I have long since felt we should have a particularly NI tune), but I respect it, since it is only 90 seconds before the real business of the 90 minutes starts. (In fact, I'm often in the loo for a last-minute emptying of the old bladder when the band is playing!)
Similarly, when they play the Soldiers Song (twice!) at Lansdowne before rugby internationals. I don't feel anything it, but my attitude is "Stand Up, Shut Up, then Sit Down", as a simple mark of respect.
How do I reconcile my support for both NI and Ireland? Simple, really: I just accept that each sport is administered on a different basis and cheer the boys in green, since I don't feel my presence is making any political statement to anyone. In fact, the politics of the fans around me at Windsor or Lansdowne are of no interest to me, nor mine any business of theirs.
As such, I imagine that is how the likes of Gerry Armstrong (one of my all-time sporting heroes) reconciles his pride at represented his local club at Croke Park whilst a youngster, with his pride at representing NI in numerous internationals whilst an adult.
EG i take your point on board and perhaps in hindsight i should have gone to windsor with my workmates. however its clear that fans of all backgrounds have no problems supporting ireland as one nation when it comes to rugby. Therefore why can the same not be done when it comes to football. I know that the football authorities split after partition but is it really implausible to suggest that, like rugby everyone on the island could come together and support one team? if this happened i'd be quite happy to remove all anthems and flags from the ground as i don't think they are needed. is it a class thing where rugby fans are more tolerant and from the middle classes??
Quote from: An Fear Rua on July 27, 2007, 02:03:15 PM
So Tonys right then that you are mostly unionist or loyalist, and on that basis pro ni in the uk, and would maybe see a ni football team as an expression of that ideal, even though it was never originally formed for that purpose, but sorta grew into the position?
It's hardly a state secret that the majority, but NOT unanimity, of NI fans are unionist/loyalist of one shade or another. And I daresay some of those see their support for the team as an expression of their political ideals.
However, you should be aware that rather than continuing to grow, such an outlook has actually been
reversed greatly in recent years. For example, 20+ years ago, Union Flags were greatly in evidence at NI matches, with regular singing of The Sash etc. A noticeable number of fans wore Linfield or Rangers colours (scarves and replica tops etc).
Presently, however, you never hear any political songs or chants at matches (bar a solitary "No Surrender" chant during the anthem by a minority - a Pavlovian reflex, really) and Union Flags have almost all been replaced by NI flags or (increasingly) Green and White flags and banners of one sort or another. As for Linfield colours, those rare individuals (a handful, really) who sometimes wear them tend to get the piss taken out of them. In any case, the overwhelming effect in the stands is of a "Sea of Green".
Similarly, there is an increasing movement amongst the fans e.g. to replace GSTQ as our anthem, in the same way as Scotland and Wales have done.
In fact, such has been the overwhelming transformation in behaviour, atmosphere and appearance at NI games, that the real knuckle-draggers have actually stopped* supporting the NI team, on the basis that they "wouldn't be seen dead wearing green amongst that bunch of hand-wringers and fenian-lovers etc".
* - Not that they've stopped supporting an international team, mind, as the frequent sight of the likes of Johnny Adair and Billy Hutchinson in Ingurland tops testifies... ???
Quote from: inisceithleann on July 27, 2007, 02:10:48 PM
It may be being disputed but the outcome is quite clear, that the FAI can pick people born on this Island. FIFA are never going to overrrule an act of law i.e what was created by the Good Friday Agreement. If someone has an irish passport then they are an irish citizen and have the exact same status as anyone currently playing for the Repbublic.
When FIFA last adjudicated on such matters (in the 1950's), part of the outcome was a "gentlemens' agreement" between the FAI and IFA that each would cease to pick players from the other's jurisdiction.
This agreement held until very recently, when the FAI started selecting players at under-age level. However, the eligibility rules are more flexible at this level than at senior level, and whilst the FAI has picked one or two Northern-born players with no other connection to the Republic in recent senior squads (most notably Darron Gibson), none has as yet been allowed to play, which is the key factor.
And when the IFA objected to this to FIFA, rather than just going ahead and ignoring them, the FAI thought fit to bring their counter-case to FIFA. Now it may well be that the FAI's case will prevail, but it is by no means clear-cut; personally, as an NI fan, I am cautiously optimistic that FIFA will accept our submission.
As for the GFA, that is irrelevant to such matters, since soccer (or sport) was nowhere mentioned in it, neither was FIFA one of the signatories.
Consequently, the one thing we can say for certain over this whole vexed issue is that FIFA will decide exclusively by reference to its own Statutes and Regulations, as it always does in such matters.
Quote from: inisceithleann on July 27, 2007, 02:29:26 PM
Maybe so, but because if the politically sensitive nature of the irish situation I have no doubt that they will make an exception in this situation. Do you really want people playing for you when their allegiances lie else where? Just let players play for the team they feel is their national team.
I'm sorry, but that is a very naive, even simplistic approach to take. Or do you imagine that the Irish situation is the only "politically sensitive" one on this planet? The fact is, FIFA with over 208 National Associations, now has more members than the United Nations (192). As such, there are disputes within many of those members' jurisdictions which make our little squabble look like a vicar's tea party.
As for letting players just "play for the team they feel is their national team", then why bother having eligibility rules in the first place? Why not just let the players inform us of their feelings and watch the best of them suddenly feel "English", "German", "Brazilian", "Saudi Arabian" etc, or whichever Nationality pays them most and/or offers the best chance of winning a few games...
Quote from: inisceithleann on July 27, 2007, 02:34:59 PM
I remember roy keane in his autobiography appreciating the support the team got from the North.
Too bad they were unable to persuade him to stick with the team in Saipan, then! Besides, I'd hardly cite Keane's views as the basis for an all-Ireland team, if what he says about the FAI's attitude towards Corkmen is anything to go by: a 31 County Republic, indeed... ;)
Quote from: An Fear Rua on July 27, 2007, 03:29:12 PM
Support for ni as an entity (incl any sporting teams), is an extension of support for particular political point of view, whether conscious or unconsciously. Hence, support for ni is primarlily made up of those of who pro union/ulster nationalist/anti Irish Nationalism/against reunification. Theres no real debate to be had, its quite obvious. They are linked, in the case of OWC some will see the football as the main driver for the support, some will see the political statement that support makes as the main driver, all will be touched by both aspects to varying degrees. Exactly the same aspects are true of the GAA, but the Gaa is pretty secure in the knowledge that its not going to be taken away from its members , IMHO not so true for ni fans, or indeed ni brands, or indeed ni, time and the people affected/afflicted will tell on that one.
If the above is true (and I wouldn't argue with a lot of it), then how did people like Martin O'Neill, Pat Jennings, Gerry Armstrong etc reconcile their (presumably) Nationalist politics with captaining their country? Or in the present day, the likes of Clingan, Johnson or Baird?
Not to mention the small but significant minority of supporters from a Nationalist background who still attend Windsor for internationals?
No-one requires any of them to sing any anthem, sign any pledge, vote for any party or carry any Passport when they walk through the gates. Indeed, there is a requirement that overtly political or sectarian behaviour is prohibited, even illegal, and such displays are very rare indeed, these days.
Sure, there remain a few isolated trappings which may be identified with one particular political viewpoint, but these are being eliminated and none is compulsory, or in any way prevents anyone of any political persuasion (or none) from either wearing the green shirt, or cheering on those who do.
Which, imo, is entirely how it should be - just as I have never had an insurmountable problem with the exclusively Nationalist emblems etc on display at rugby internationals at Lansdowne, even though that team is meant to represent both jurisdictions on the island...
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 28, 2007, 12:33:54 AM
If the above is true (and I wouldn't argue with a lot of it), then how did people like Martin O'Neill, Pat Jennings, Gerry Armstrong etc reconcile their (presumably) Nationalist politics with captaining their country?
I think I know the answer to this one. Erm, in the good old days of the 'gentleman's agreement' they had no other choice but to play for the north if they wanted to play international soccer?
Quote from: magickingdom on July 27, 2007, 06:49:46 PM
ni shouldn't have a team (as i duck behind the couch), nor should scotland wales or england. there should be one uk team then everyone who feels their british they can support it and everyone who feels their irish can support the irish team...
An important point which is often overlooked, MK. That is, if FIFA were to apply its normal (but not exclusive) practice of national teams only reflecting the boundaries of nation states, there would indeed be only two international teams on these islands - UK and ROI.
Of course, supporters who choose to support either, or both, or neither; it was always the case that anyone can support any international team he/she likes.
Of course, playing for a National team is entirely different. As such, if the National Associations were tightened to reflect the UK and ROI jurisdictions, I have no doubt that FIFA would have to ensure that player eligibility rules also reflected these boundaries, so that no-one from the UK, who was not either born in the ROI, or had a parent/grandparent born there, or had lived there at least 3 years continuously, would be allowed to play for the FAI team.
And whilse that particular prospect does not greatly bother me, I personally have no greater desire to see my NI team subsumed into a UK team than I have to see it subsumed into an All-Ireland team!
Quote from: Donagh on July 28, 2007, 12:51:22 AM
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 28, 2007, 12:33:54 AM
If the above is true (and I wouldn't argue with a lot of it), then how did people like Martin O'Neill, Pat Jennings, Gerry Armstrong etc reconcile their (presumably) Nationalist politics with captaining their country?
I think I know the answer to this one. Erm, in the good old days of the 'gentleman's agreement' they had no other choice but to play for the north if they wanted to play international soccer?
But it actually worked both ways! That is, it was not just the FAI who sought to pick players from the six, but the IFA had also frequently picked players from the 26, on the basis that it (the IFA) was the original Association, with their jurisdiction covering the whole island since 1880. Therefore after 1950, footballers from the Republic had no other choice but to play for the FAI team.
That said, the 1950 arbitration by FIFA initially only covered World Cup (and subsequently European Nations Cup) matches, since they needed to avoid the situation whereby Irish players could play for two teams in the same competition!
Therefore, the IFA was still allowed to call itself "Ireland" for British Championship matches and also select players from the Republic for these games. AFAIK, this latter arrangement lasted into throughout the 1950's for player selection, with the "Ireland" name being retained until around 1970(?) for BC matches.
Anyhow, on a more general note about "choice", if someone doesn't like to represent only one particular international team at soccer, he always has the choice to play some other sport, as e.g. certain Basques found when called up to represent Spain at soccer...
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 28, 2007, 12:33:54 AM
Which, imo, is entirely how it should be - just as I have never had an insurmountable problem with the exclusively Nationalist emblems etc on display at rugby internationals at Lansdowne, even though that team is meant to represent both jurisdictions on the island...
I don't get the bit about exclusive nationalist symbols on display at LR for rugby games.
Wasn't Willie John on display for decades.
The Ulster flag is flown alongside the tricolour.
If the Ulster flag and Irelands Call don't do it, then come up with another Ulster flag and an Ulster Anthem that reflects the positive aspirations of all the people in NI.
NI is not just about a Unionist jurisdiction.
.
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 28, 2007, 12:16:56 AM
Quote from: inisceithleann on July 27, 2007, 02:34:59 PM
I remember roy keane in his autobiography appreciating the support the team got from the North.
Too bad they were unable to persuade him to stick with the team in Saipan, then! Besides, I'd hardly cite Keane's views as the basis for an all-Ireland team, if what he says about the FAI's attitude towards Corkmen is anything to go by: a 31 County Republic, indeed... ;)
classic :D :D :D
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 27, 2007, 11:59:08 PM
Quote from: inisceithleann on July 27, 2007, 02:10:48 PM
It may be being disputed but the outcome is quite clear, that the FAI can pick people born on this Island. FIFA are never going to overrrule an act of law i.e what was created by the Good Friday Agreement. If someone has an irish passport then they are an irish citizen and have the exact same status as anyone currently playing for the Repbublic.
When FIFA last adjudicated on such matters (in the 1950's), part of the outcome was a "gentlemens' agreement" between the FAI and IFA that each would cease to pick players from the other's jurisdiction.
This agreement held until very recently, when the FAI started selecting players at under-age level. However, the eligibility rules are more flexible at this level than at senior level, and whilst the FAI has picked one or two Northern-born players with no other connection to the Republic in recent senior squads (most notably Darron Gibson), none has as yet been allowed to play, which is the key factor.
And when the IFA objected to this to FIFA, rather than just going ahead and ignoring them, the FAI thought fit to bring their counter-case to FIFA. Now it may well be that the FAI's case will prevail, but it is by no means clear-cut; personally, as an NI fan, I am cautiously optimistic that FIFA will accept our submission.
As for the GFA, that is irrelevant to such matters, since soccer (or sport) was nowhere mentioned in it, neither was FIFA one of the signatories.
Consequently, the one thing we can say for certain over this whole vexed issue is that FIFA will decide exclusively by reference to its own Statutes and Regulations, as it always does in such matters.
eg, surely ni wouldnt want to 'force' players to play for them. regardless of what fifa rule (and its more likely they'll take this into account in any decision), fifa are not sovereign and any decision can be appealed to the courts. the courts will HAVE to rule that any citizen of a state has equal rights with all other citizens (if they were to rule any other way the world as we know it is f*"ked). thus under the gfa where we recognised consent the uk recognised the right of people in the north to be irish, irish citizens in the north will be able to play for ireland/roi. this is right and how it should be....
Quote from: magickingdom on July 28, 2007, 01:19:04 PM
eg, surely ni wouldnt want to 'force' players to play for them. regardless of what fifa rule (and its more likely they'll take this into account in any decision), fifa are not sovereign and any decision can be appealed to the courts. the courts will HAVE to rule that any citizen of a state has equal rights with all other citizens (if they were to rule any other way the world as we know it is f*"ked). thus under the gfa where we recognised consent the uk recognised the right of people in the north to be irish, irish citizens in the north will be able to play for ireland/roi. this is right and how it should be....
You can play for Northern Ireland by solely holding an Irish Passport. Therefore you are not being denied your right to express your Irishness by being picked for and playing for Northern Ireland while not being eligable to play for the Republic.
Clear as mud really...
Does Northern Ireland football get more coverage on this site than GAA? It must be a close run thing. It is looking more like a "shadow" Our Wee Country here than anything else.
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 28, 2007, 03:08:26 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on July 28, 2007, 01:19:04 PM
eg, surely ni wouldnt want to 'force' players to play for them. regardless of what fifa rule (and its more likely they'll take this into account in any decision), fifa are not sovereign and any decision can be appealed to the courts. the courts will HAVE to rule that any citizen of a state has equal rights with all other citizens (if they were to rule any other way the world as we know it is f*"ked). thus under the gfa where we recognised consent the uk recognised the right of people in the north to be irish, irish citizens in the north will be able to play for ireland/roi. this is right and how it should be....
You can play for Northern Ireland by solely holding an Irish Passport. Therefore you are not being denied your right to express your Irishness by being picked for and playing for Northern Ireland while not being eligable to play for the Republic.
Clear as mud really...
clear as mud? did you even read my post?
what was that about last year when ni players were asked to get uk passports?
Quote from: Solomon Kane on July 28, 2007, 03:53:25 PM
Does Northern Ireland football get more coverage on this site than GAA? It must be a close run thing. It is looking more like a "shadow" Our Wee Country here than anything else.
your in the non-gaa section, pop over to the gaa section when you get a chance...
Quote from: magickingdom on July 28, 2007, 04:15:39 PM
clear as mud? did you even read my post?
what was that about last year when ni players were asked to get uk passports?
Yes I did read your post. You stated what you believed should happen. Not what actually has or does happen.
NI players are no longer required to have UK passports.
http://www.rte.ie/sport/2006/0619/passports.html (http://www.rte.ie/sport/2006/0619/passports.html)
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 28, 2007, 06:54:08 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on July 28, 2007, 04:15:39 PM
clear as mud? did you even read my post?
what was that about last year when ni players were asked to get uk passports?
Yes I did read your post. You stated what you believed should happen. Not what actually has or does happen.
NI players are no longer required to have UK passports.
http://www.rte.ie/sport/2006/0619/passports.html (http://www.rte.ie/sport/2006/0619/passports.html)
True, after the IFA were dragged by their hair screaming (no surrender) to the head office.
All under the guise of needing clarification.
Quote from: Main Street on July 28, 2007, 10:49:03 AM
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 28, 2007, 12:33:54 AM
Which, imo, is entirely how it should be - just as I have never had an insurmountable problem with the exclusively Nationalist emblems etc on display at rugby internationals at Lansdowne, even though that team is meant to represent both jurisdictions on the island...
I don't get the bit about exclusive nationalist symbols on display at LR for rugby games.
Wasn't Willie John on display for decades.
The Ulster flag is flown alongside the tricolour.
If the Ulster flag and Irelands Call don't do it, then come up with another Ulster flag and an Ulster Anthem that reflects the positive aspirations of all the people in NI.
NI is not just about a Unionist jurisdiction.
The "Ireland" team represents rugby in two countries (Irish Republic and United Kingdom), selecting players who are Irish or British.
Yet at Lansdowne, the National Anthem played (Soldiers Song) and National Flag flown (Tricolour) only reflects one of these. ("Irelands Call" is a specially commissioned
rugby anthem). Further, they add a "Presidential Salute" to the Republic's Head of State, with no equivalent to recognise the presence of any NI equivalent (Secretary of State), even when he is present.
If it were to be truly fair, they would play both National Anthems (SS and GSTQ) and fly both flags (Tricolour and Union Flag or NI flag). Alternatively, if this were thought unacceptable, they would do for matches in Dublin what they do for matches overseas: i.e. fly the Irish Rugby flag and play "Ireland's Call" only.
Of course, the "justification" for the arrangements to date were that the arrangements at Lansdowne merely reflected the jurisdiction in which the game was being played. Therefore, if they were ever to play again in Belfast, they would revert to the arrangements which obtained at Ravenhill up until 1948(?) i.e. GSTQ and the Union Flag.
Of course, the IRFU doubtless thought that were "writing a cheque which would never be cashed" i.e. such a
quid pro quo would never actually occur (especially since they own both LR and Ravenhill, and were putting all their resources into LR only).
Which was something rugby fans in NI were prepared to tolerate, until the cheque suddenly needed to be presented at the bank i.e. Ireland required to play at Ravenhill. And what was the response of the IRFU?
On the publicly stated basis that a game in Belfast was NOT a "home" game(!), the arrangements for away games would be applied. As an Irish Unionist, I can't help wondering what Irish Nationalists from the six counties feel about being told by an all-Ireland organisation that they aren't really Irish...
Anyhow, rugby could take a leaf from another all-Ireland sport, Cricket, which merely flies the flag of the Irish Cricket Union (cricket doesn't bother with Anthems).
P.S. As for the presence of Willie John somehow legitimising these arrangements, may I assume that the presence of the likes of Pat Jennings in the NI team over the years similarly "legitimises" the arrangements over flag and anthem at Windsor, to which many Irish Nationalists object?
As for the Ulster flag, I would have absolutely no objection if the IRFU were to fly the flags of the four provinces only (or a quartered four provinces flag) - I imagine Connacht would appreciate this rare recognition, as well...
Quote from: magickingdom on July 28, 2007, 01:19:04 PM
eg, surely ni wouldnt want to 'force' players to play for them. regardless of what fifa rule (and its more likely they'll take this into account in any decision), fifa are not sovereign and any decision can be appealed to the courts. the courts will HAVE to rule that any citizen of a state has equal rights with all other citizens (if they were to rule any other way the world as we know it is f*"ked). thus under the gfa where we recognised consent the uk recognised the right of people in the north to be irish, irish citizens in the north will be able to play for ireland/roi. this is right and how it should be....
No-one is suggesting the IFA (or any other Association) could/should "force" players to represent them; rather, what is being required is that the Rules which
prevent players from representing Associations for which they are not eligible be applied consistently across all of FIFA's 208 members.
As for the rest of your post, this reveals a complete lack of understanding of the status and jurisdiction of FIFA. Basically, this is a Member Organisation whose Constitution and Rules are determined by its Members and which have to be accepted by all Associations as a condition of becoming a Member.
Just about the most basic condition is that National Associations MUST NOT allow governmental interference in the conduct of their affairs, on pain of suspension or expulsion from FIFA. If you search through www.fifa.com, you will see that such disputes arise all the time and without exception, FIFA prevails - the most recent was Greece, a few months back.
Indeed, assuming no criminal law is broken, any Government or individual Association which doesn't like what FIFA decrees, always has the option of leaving and setting up their own governing body for soccer...
(AFAIK, the last Association which was expelled by FIFA for any length of time was Columbia in the 1950's, in a dispute over amateurism. Columbia was completely excluded from any involvement in international soccer for years and there wasn't a damned thing their, or any other, Government could do about it)
Quote from: magickingdom on July 28, 2007, 04:15:39 PM
what was that about last year when ni players were asked to get uk passports?
NI players were not asked by the IFA to acquire UK Passports (in addition to any other PP they may hold); rather, it was a FIFA direction.
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 28, 2007, 06:54:08 PM
NI players are no longer required to have UK passports.
http://www.rte.ie/sport/2006/0619/passports.html (http://www.rte.ie/sport/2006/0619/passports.html)
Actually, NI players were never required to hold UK PP's, and that RTE article you cite is somewhat misleading (at least those parts which relate to the politicians...)
Quote from: Main Street on July 29, 2007, 01:51:40 AM
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 28, 2007, 06:54:08 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on July 28, 2007, 04:15:39 PM
clear as mud? did you even read my post?
what was that about last year when ni players were asked to get uk passports?
Yes I did read your post. You stated what you believed should happen. Not what actually has or does happen.
NI players are no longer required to have UK passports.
http://www.rte.ie/sport/2006/0619/passports.html (http://www.rte.ie/sport/2006/0619/passports.html)
True, after the IFA were dragged by their hair screaming (no surrender) to the head office.
All under the guise of needing clarification.
You could not be more wrong if you "did a Fearon" and simply made it up!
The situation is relatively simple, typically clouded only by the intervention of politicians, acting to their own agenda.
FIFA has Rules on eligibility to represent a particular National Association (or Associations). These are separate from the international law which determines Nationality, or the granting of Passports for travel or ID purposes etc.
Consequently, the IFA has always picked players with either British Nationality, Irish Nationality or both. Further, these individuals have always been allowed to carry either an Irish or a British Passport, or both, but this is merely for the purposes of crossing international boundaries and also for proving a players age and identity in internationally sanctioned competitions (i.e. preventing "ringers").
However, at some European competition last year (not involving NI), a local FIFA Official became confused when a player with dual (political) nationality, representing country A, presented a Passport from country B. The FIFA Official (presumably) confused Eligibility and Identification, so a row arose.
Consequently, FIFA issued a simple directive stating that any player needing to verify his Identity and Age must do so only by presenting the Passport of the country (National Association) which he is representing.
Of course, they will not even have considered the difficulty this would pose for the IFA, who would no longer have been able to select those of their players with Irish Nationality and an Irish PP (only). They (uncharacteristically) quickly requested an exemption and were successful. Therefore, the situation for NI players remains unchanged: they may carry whatever PP(s) they like, so long as these have been legally obtained.
The intervention of the politicians is typically unwelcome, serving only to distort the issue for their own ends. Chief of these was Dermot Aherne, who attempted
totally without foundation to claim the "credit" for ending "discrimination" against Irish sportsmen. It is actually quite clear that FIFA granted the exemption without regard to his intervention; indeed afaik, he never even got to meet them!
(And before anyone jumps in, I happen to think that the statement by Gregory Campbell, as reported by RTE, is possibly even more f**k-witted...)
EG when can we expect FIFA to make a ruling on eligibility? Are FIFA avoiding the issue? Surely it'd be better to make the ruling and get on with it. If they declared that northern born players could play for the ROI would the IFA simply accept it or would the issue continue to be debated?
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 29, 2007, 11:03:45 AM
The "Ireland" team represents rugby in two countries (Irish Republic and United Kingdom), selecting players who are Irish or British.
You could look at it like that or
the IRFU present a team to represent the 4 provinces.
One is Ulster a 9 county province which is represented by the Ulster Flag.
If you want to yap on endlessly about the GSTQ and Union Jack, It's backwood blinkers.
They have never and never will represent the population of NI
Scotland and Wales both in the UK, have their own assembly Flag and anthem, both never went through anything remotely close to what the entire population of NI has suffered.
Time to move on and let go of great granny's apron strings and come up with an anthem and flag that represents Ulster.
And a once and for all recognition of nationalist culture, gaelic culture, republican history, sport as an equal part of what constitutes Ulster.
"P.S. As for the presence of Willie John somehow legitimising these arrangements"
You obviously missed the irony by a country mile of my mentioning WJ McBride.
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 29, 2007, 12:13:59 PM
You could not be more wrong if you "did a Fearon" and simply made it up!
The situation is relatively simple, typically clouded only by the intervention of politicians, acting to their own agenda.
FIFA has Rules on eligibility to represent a particular National Association (or Associations). These are separate from the international law which determines Nationality, or the granting of Passports for travel or ID purposes etc.
Consequently, FIFA issued a simple directive stating that any player needing to verify his Identity and Age must do so only by presenting the Passport of the country (National Association) which he is representing.
The intervention of the politicians is typically unwelcome,
The situation could easily have been resolved if The IFA had taken the lead and clarified the situation with UEFA on behalf of the Irish citizens.
who wanted to play for NI.
The perception, not without justification was that they were (at a minimum) just not in tune with the issue. They hesitated and only budged after protests.
Dermot Aherne's duty is to protect the rights of Irish citizens regardless of what country they live in or are visiting.
Claiming credit is a politicans desert.
Quote from: inisceithleann on July 29, 2007, 12:23:03 PM
EG when can we expect FIFA to make a ruling on eligibility? Are FIFA avoiding the issue? Surely it'd be better to make the ruling and get on with it. If they declared that northern born players could play for the ROI would the IFA simply accept it or would the issue continue to be debated?
AFAIK, the two Associations made their submissions to FIFA months ago. FIFA may be delaying since it's a tricky one and they can't palm it off on some other body (as they did the Tevez affair)
More likely (imo) is that they haven't got round to it since they have better things to be doing - we typically always think that this little island is actually a deal more important than it actually is.
As for the outcome, having followed it with close interest, I genuinely do not know which way it will go - as I see it, the Rules may be interpreted either way, therefore the decision is as likely to be guided by policy considerations as by legal or technical ones.
And although there may be some mechanism for appeal, both Associations must undoubtedly accept FIFA's final determination on the matter, otherwise they risk being kicked out of FIFA entirely.
Quote from: Main Street on July 29, 2007, 01:24:17 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 29, 2007, 11:03:45 AM
The "Ireland" team represents rugby in two countries (Irish Republic and United Kingdom), selecting players who are Irish or British.
You could look at it like that or
the IRFU present a team to represent the 4 provinces.
One is Ulster a 9 county province which is represented by the Ulster Flag.
If you want to yap on endlessly about the GSTQ and Union Jack, It's backwood blinkers.
They have never and never will represent the population of NI
"P.S. As for the presence of Willie John somehow legitimising these arrangements"
You obviously missed the irony by a country mile of my mentioning WJ McBride.
I personally would prefer it if the IRFU accepted that the Ireland rugby team represented the four provinces and only flew Provincial Flags and played the rugby anthem (Ireland's Call).
My query was about their also flying the Tricolour and playing the Soldiers Song since, to paraphrase you, these "have never and never will represent the population of NI"
Therefore the only choices which can be consistent must be:
1. Use the political emblems of both countries at all matches; or
2. Use the political emblems of the Irish Republic only at matches played in the Republic and the political emblems only of NI at matches played in NI; or
3. Dispense entirely with all political emblems at all matches and stick to purely Irish rugby emblems.
And before you accuse me once more of yapping on "endlessly about the GSTQ and the Union Jack" [
sic], or wearing "Backwoods blinkers" (whatever they may be), my overwhelming preference is for the third - just like the Ireland Cricket Team, in fact.
As for Willie John, I clearly am missing something - just what on earth do you mean by citing him in this context?
Quote from: Main Street on July 29, 2007, 01:34:28 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 29, 2007, 12:13:59 PM
You could not be more wrong if you "did a Fearon" and simply made it up!
The situation is relatively simple, typically clouded only by the intervention of politicians, acting to their own agenda.
FIFA has Rules on eligibility to represent a particular National Association (or Associations). These are separate from the international law which determines Nationality, or the granting of Passports for travel or ID purposes etc.
Consequently, FIFA issued a simple directive stating that any player needing to verify his Identity and Age must do so only by presenting the Passport of the country (National Association) which he is representing.
The intervention of the politicians is typically unwelcome,
The situation could easily have been resolved if The IFA had taken the lead and clarified the situation with UEFA on behalf of the Irish citizens.
who wanted to play for NI.
The perception, not without justification was that they were (at a minimum) just not in tune with the issue. They hesitated and only budged after protests.
Dermot Aherne's duty is to protect the rights of Irish citizens regardless of what country they live in or are visiting.
Claiming credit is a politicans desert.
Total and utter bullshit - of the worst Fearonesque type.
Throughout its existence, the IFA has always selected players who are Irish citizens and hold only Irish Passports. They never had the need or desire to change this.
Indeed, when they were told out of the blue that they may no longer do so, following a controversy which had absolutely nothing to do with them, they immediately applied for an exemption which would allow them to preserve the
status quo ante. It was their application, and their application only which was considered and accepted by the appropriate Committee, with no recourse to political or any other non-footballing bodies.
I daresay I could look out the various Directives etc which prove this, but I simply couldn't be arsed; it's up to you whether you accept this or not.
As for the intervention of certain politicians (not coincidentally in the run-up to elections etc), as the man says:
"What else do you expect from a pig, only grunts?" >:(
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 29, 2007, 11:44:36 AM
Quote from: magickingdom on July 28, 2007, 01:19:04 PM
eg, surely ni wouldnt want to 'force' players to play for them. regardless of what fifa rule (and its more likely they'll take this into account in any decision), fifa are not sovereign and any decision can be appealed to the courts. the courts will HAVE to rule that any citizen of a state has equal rights with all other citizens (if they were to rule any other way the world as we know it is f*"ked). thus under the gfa where we recognised consent the uk recognised the right of people in the north to be irish, irish citizens in the north will be able to play for ireland/roi. this is right and how it should be....
No-one is suggesting the IFA (or any other Association) could/should "force" players to represent them; rather, what is being required is that the Rules which prevent players from representing Associations for which they are not eligible be applied consistently across all of FIFA's 208 members.
As for the rest of your post, this reveals a complete lack of understanding of the status and jurisdiction of FIFA. Basically, this is a Member Organisation whose Constitution and Rules are determined by its Members and which have to be accepted by all Associations as a condition of becoming a Member.
Just about the most basic condition is that National Associations MUST NOT allow governmental interference in the conduct of their affairs, on pain of suspension or expulsion from FIFA. If you search through www.fifa.com, you will see that such disputes arise all the time and without exception, FIFA prevails - the most recent was Greece, a few months back.
Indeed, assuming no criminal law is broken, any Government or individual Association which doesn't like what FIFA decrees, always has the option of leaving and setting up their own governing body for soccer...
(AFAIK, the last Association which was expelled by FIFA for any length of time was Columbia in the 1950's, in a dispute over amateurism. Columbia was completely excluded from any involvement in international soccer for years and there wasn't a damned thing their, or any other, Government could do about it)
eg, as ever your nearly right! not just criminal law any law. ie laws on equality, all citizens are equal (except in the uk and other non liberad democracys where some are born to rule ;)). fifa member organisations will ALWAYS be subject to the laws of the land in each country in which they operate. does the bosman ruling ring a bell. no doubt when fifa rule on eligibility they will be cognizant of this ..
Quote from: magickingdom on July 29, 2007, 02:36:36 PM
eg, as ever your nearly right! not just criminal law any law. ie laws on equality, all citizens are equal (except in the uk and other non liberad democracys where some are born to rule ;)). fifa member organisations will ALWAYS be subject to the laws of the land in each country in which they operate. does the bosman ruling ring a bell. no doubt when fifa rule on eligibility they will be cognizant of this ..
The eligibility or otherwise of a footballer to play for one Association or another has absolutely sod all to do with international criminal law.
And FIFA has never had a view on what particular Rules on contracts etc individual Member Associations may apply to players at club level.
With Bosman, the Belgian FA allowed clubs to apply restrictive contract terms re transfers etc which contravened a player's right to freedom of employment etc under EU Law.
When Bosman, backed by his Union, declared that he would challenge his club under EU Law, both the club and the Belgian FA backed down, and changed the Rules to comply with those already applied by most other Associations within the EU.
Therefore, Bosman had sod-all to do with FIFA (headquartered outside the EU, btw), which is why FIFA declined to become involved. It's the same with the Tevez case, too, btw.
Quote from: Main Street on July 29, 2007, 01:51:40 AMTrue, after the IFA were dragged by their hair screaming (no surrender) to the head office.
All under the guise of needing clarification.
Sorry I've been away for a few days and I can't be arsed trawling back through the whole thread, but I can't let that lie go unchallenged. What you claim is the complete opposite of what happened. The IFA have now and have always had players with RoI passports. FIFA tried to change their rules which would have lead to players needing Irish and British passports, the IFA complained and FIFA accepted their complaint, so the status quo remained in place.
To try and suggest anything else is just bollix of the highest order.
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 29, 2007, 02:48:05 PM
[The eligibility or otherwise of a footballer to play for one Association or another has absolutely sod all to do with international criminal law.
never said it had... not once did i mention international criminal law ffs.
Quote from: magickingdom on July 29, 2007, 04:24:53 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 29, 2007, 02:48:05 PM
[The eligibility or otherwise of a footballer to play for one Association or another has absolutely sod all to do with international criminal law.
never said it had... not once did i mention international criminal law ffs.
Having (somehow) got from Worthington's (non) comment on NI leaving Windsor, to the issue of the eligibility of NI-born players to represent the FAI, you made a couple of posts which show a clear lack of understanding of the jurisdiction and legal accountability of FIFA, including:
eg, as ever your nearly right! not just criminal law any law. ie laws on equality, all citizens are equal (except in the uk and other non liberad democracys where some are born to rule ). fifa member organisations will ALWAYS be subject to the laws of the land in each country in which they operate. does the bosman ruling ring a bell. no doubt when fifa rule on eligibility they will be cognizant of this ..On matters such as Eligibility, FIFA is quite simply NOT bound by any international treaties, agreements or laws passed by unconnected organisations (inc. Governments) to which it is not a signatory, nor has it ever been.
Rather, so long as its operations do not contravene any criminal law, it will not tolerate any interference by any national governments in the internal footballing affairs of its (i.e. FIFA's) Member Associations. Further, when faced by such interference, it will readily have recourse to an effective remedy, i.e. to suspend or dismiss the National Association from Membership of FIFA, such Membership being a privilege, not a right. Invariably when faced with such a threat, the Government in question either comes to a compromise which is acceptable to FIFA, or withdraws entirely.
What you seem to overlook is that FIFA has had almost 100 years of dealing with Governments of every shade imaginable. They know pretty well what comes within their powers and what doesn't. International player eligibility is one of those, and Bosman-type players contracts is not.
Whereas not only do you not know the difference, but you don't even appear to have understood that there is a difference in the first place.
Anyhow, it's all found here:
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/federation/statutes%5f08%5f2006%5fen%5fpdf%5f52.pdf
See especially Art.17 - Bodies on Pg.12, Article 62 - Obligations on Pg. 41, Article 53 - Principle on Pg 42 and the Regulation re. Player Eligibility under Article 15 on Pg. 60.
For some recent examples of FIFA prohibiting external interference in the running of a National Association's affairs, see:
FYR Macedonia - http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/media/newsid=537948.html#fyr+macedonia+fifa+uefa+satisfied+with+restoration+statutory+legality
Poland - http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/federation/releases/newsid=110160.html
Kenya - http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/federation/releases/newsid=112991.html
Yemen- http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/federation/administration/releases/newsid=99756.html
General - http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/releases/newsid=94282.html
Enjoy... ;)
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 29, 2007, 02:11:32 PM
Total and utter bullshit - of the worst Fearonesque type.
Throughout its existence, the IFA has always selected players who are Irish citizens and hold only Irish Passports. They never had the need or desire to change this.
Indeed, when they were told out of the blue that they may no longer do so, following a controversy which had absolutely nothing to do with them, they immediately applied for an exemption which would allow them to preserve the status quo ante. It was their application, and their application only which was considered and accepted by the appropriate Committee, with no recourse to political or any other non-footballing bodies.
I daresay I could look out the various Directives etc which prove this, but I simply couldn't be arsed; it's up to you whether you accept this or not.
As for the intervention of certain politicians (not coincidentally in the run-up to elections etc), as the man says:
"What else do you expect from a pig, only grunts?" >:(
Not quite out of the blue
The diktat was sought after and expected by the IFA.
From May 26
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/ViewArticle.aspx?SectionID=3426&ArticleID=1527930 (http://www.newsletter.co.uk/ViewArticle.aspx?SectionID=3426&ArticleID=1527930)
"The IFA never objected to players holding a republic passport wanting to play for Northern Ireland – but stressed they couldn't because of FIFA diktat."
The IFA deep throat
"Now FIFA have confirmed 100 per cent that the IFA were right and that a player wishing to play in a competitive match must hold a UK passport."
AFAIR
ALL NI supporters thought FIFA got it 100% wrong.
AFAIR quite a few suspected that the IFA bungled it initially.
Not scientific I know, but reading that Newsletter article looks to me that the IFA fecked up but made a recovery of sorts.
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 29, 2007, 02:01:20 PM
As for Willie John, I clearly am missing something - just what on earth do you mean by citing him in this context?
You wrote
"P.S. As for the presence of Willie John somehow legitimising these arrangements"
Exactly.
Even the sight of Willie John leaving the pitch draped in a tricolour meant diddly.
Same goes for your naming of
Gerry Armstrong or Martin O'Neill or Pat Jennings or Gerry Armstrong.
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 29, 2007, 06:46:58 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on July 29, 2007, 04:24:53 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 29, 2007, 02:48:05 PM
[The eligibility or otherwise of a footballer to play for one Association or another has absolutely sod all to do with international criminal law.
never said it had... not once did i mention international criminal law ffs.
Having (somehow) got from Worthington's (non) comment on NI leaving Windsor, to the issue of the eligibility of NI-born players to represent the FAI, you made a couple of posts which show a clear lack of understanding of the jurisdiction and legal accountability of FIFA, including:
eg, as ever your nearly right! not just criminal law any law. ie laws on equality, all citizens are equal (except in the uk and other non liberad democracys where some are born to rule ). fifa member organisations will ALWAYS be subject to the laws of the land in each country in which they operate. does the bosman ruling ring a bell. no doubt when fifa rule on eligibility they will be cognizant of this ..
On matters such as Eligibility, FIFA is quite simply NOT bound by any international treaties, agreements or laws passed by unconnected organisations (inc. Governments) to which it is not a signatory, nor has it ever been.
Rather, so long as its operations do not contravene any criminal law, it will not tolerate any interference by any national governments in the internal footballing affairs of its (i.e. FIFA's) Member Associations. Further, when faced by such interference, it will readily have recourse to an effective remedy, i.e. to suspend or dismiss the National Association from Membership of FIFA, such Membership being a privilege, not a right. Invariably when faced with such a threat, the Government in question either comes to a compromise which is acceptable to FIFA, or withdraws entirely.
What you seem to overlook is that FIFA has had almost 100 years of dealing with Governments of every shade imaginable. They know pretty well what comes within their powers and what doesn't. International player eligibility is one of those, and Bosman-type players contracts is not.
Whereas not only do you not know the difference, but you don't even appear to have understood that there is a difference in the first place.
Anyhow, it's all found here:
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/federation/statutes%5f08%5f2006%5fen%5fpdf%5f52.pdf
See especially Art.17 - Bodies on Pg.12, Article 62 - Obligations on Pg. 41, Article 53 - Principle on Pg 42 and the Regulation re. Player Eligibility under Article 15 on Pg. 60.
For some recent examples of FIFA prohibiting external interference in the running of a National Association's affairs, see:
FYR Macedonia - http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/media/newsid=537948.html#fyr+macedonia+fifa+uefa+satisfied+with+restoration+statutory+legality
Poland - http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/federation/releases/newsid=110160.html
Kenya - http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/federation/releases/newsid=112991.html
Yemen- http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/federation/administration/releases/newsid=99756.html
General - http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/releases/newsid=94282.html
Enjoy... ;)
unbelievable, fifa rule the world according to you. i give up and no doubt when fifa rule as i predict they will you'll have some other line..
Quote from: magickingdom on July 29, 2007, 10:24:53 PM
unbelievable, fifa rule the world according to you. i give up and no doubt when fifa rule as i predict they will you'll have some other line..
That's actually the complete opposite of what he said but sure don't let the facts get in your way. FIFA run football competitions they don't do anything else, if you want to compete in their competitions you have to abide by their rules, the same as any other sport.
Quote from: SammyG on July 29, 2007, 10:27:07 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on July 29, 2007, 10:24:53 PM
unbelievable, fifa rule the world according to you. i give up and no doubt when fifa rule as i predict they will you'll have some other line..
That's actually the complete opposite of what he said but sure don't let the facts get in your way. FIFA run football competitions they don't do anything else, if you want to compete in their competitions you have to abide by their rules, the same as any other sport.
no shit sammy and if fifa want to operate in any country in the world they have to abide by the laws of that country. the whole point i was trying to make is that fifa are NOT the final rule maker no matter what their constitution says....
Quote from: magickingdom on July 29, 2007, 10:34:33 PM
Quote from: SammyG on July 29, 2007, 10:27:07 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on July 29, 2007, 10:24:53 PM
unbelievable, fifa rule the world according to you. i give up and no doubt when fifa rule as i predict they will you'll have some other line..
That's actually the complete opposite of what he said but sure don't let the facts get in your way. FIFA run football competitions they don't do anything else, if you want to compete in their competitions you have to abide by their rules, the same as any other sport.
no shit sammy and if fifa want to operate in any country in the world they have to abide by the laws of that country. the whole point i was trying to make is that fifa are NOT the final rule maker no matter what their constitution says....
WTF are you on about of course FIFA are the final rule maker, as far as their football competitions are concerned. What laws are FIFA breaking?
Quote from: T Fearon on July 27, 2007, 02:11:16 PM
The IFA split from the main footballing organisation in Ireland by its refusal to embrace an all ireland footballing administration and one team concept.
Fearon's bullshitting agenda laid clear.
Fact - the IFA was formed in 1880 as the governing association for the whole island
Fact - the IFA formed the Ireland international team in 1882
Fact - the FAI was formed in 1921 as a breakaway from the IFA
Fact - the IFA protested strongly to the International Board regarding admitting the FAI as a governing association, arguing it was the governing association for the whole island. However the FAI was accepted by FIFA, and recognised by the International Board as the governing association for the Irish Free State in 1923.
Fact - the FAI began competing in full international football in 1926, picking an Irish Free State team.
Fact - the IFA continued to pick a team it called Ireland including players from the Free State/RoI/etc up to 1950 when the FAI 'persuaded' serveral southern players not to play for (Northern) Ireland
Fact - the FAI picked a small handful of players from NI in 1936-8 and 1946 having renamed the Irish Free State team 'Ireland'
Fact - the team name Northern Ireland only officially came about in 1954 following the FAI's protest to FIFA. FIFA ordered the teams to be officially known as Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, which remains in force today. (The IFA reluctantly complied, having been allowed to continue to use the title 'Ireland' in Home Championship games. They would only embrace the name Northern Ireland, for all matches, in the 1970s)