Inter-county clashes worth €192m to Irish economy

[Bogball XV]

1: Not all the tax is repaid, so if rugby player x or soccer player y moves to Ireland an amount of PAYE, plus all the spending they do living here, is retained. It is supporting an industry via tax breaks, something the state does in many fields.

2: Are you sure about that? I thought it was as simple as whoever the GPA put forward for the grant. If what you say was the case, I find it hard to believe the Kilkenny sub football goalie has more of a case than a LSL or AIL rugby player. Also, were were the women in all this?

3: An amateur is an amateur. They have no 'entitlement' to money, grants or tax exemptions. The GAA has an amateur ethos yet its union actively lobbies the state to get its players payment. As both a GAA fan and a taxpayer I object. If we want professional GAA players, the GAA should be the ones paying, not the hard pressed taxpayers.

The GPA's approach is that if a professional soccer or rugby player gets something from the state in monetary terms so should GAA players is fundamentally flawed at a number of levels.

1. Still an expense to the taxpayer, the rest of your argument is a bit like the gpa report, you know - referring to money being generated and spent in the economy that actually originated in that same economy.

2. Any amateur sportsperson or organisation can apply to the sports council for a grant (no restriction on amateur actually, as it's hard to define in the likes of athletics etc).  The sports council can then decide if the individual or organisation is worthy of that grant. 

3. I still don't understand your original point about there being no equivalence between a pro and an amateur, however from what you've said here, I agree that the govt has no obligation to pay GAA players and that if anyone does, then it is the GAA itself that should be paying the players.  In saying that, I feel that GAA players at the top level are as worthy of grants as any other recipients I can think of, that including our various Olympians and professional golfers who have not yet made the breakthrough to be self financing.

[Hound]

1. Surely it costs the taxpayer the tax that's repaid?  That's an expense in my book.

1: Not all the tax is repaid, so if rugby player x or soccer player y moves to Ireland an amount of PAYE, plus all the spending they do living here, is retained. It is supporting an industry via tax breaks, something the state does in many fields.

I doubt the tax break does very much to attract overseas sportsmen here. You have to be resident here at the time you retire to be eligible for it. So anyone who comes over for 3 or 4 years gets no benefit. Most rugby players who come over would be on that basis, albeit some decide later to stay longer. 

The breaks do encourage Irish sportsmen to stay in Ireland. I think without it, its pretty certain we'd have more of our top rugby players playing abroad. I also heard that Paul McGinley is tax resident in Ireland, where it would be quite easy for him to become non-resident given the amount of travel he does - the tax break may have played a part in that?

[Zulu]

Thats not a 'grant' though. It costs the taxpayer nothing and attracts players to Ireland who might not come here otherwise. They get most, but not all of their tax back over up to 10 years and it is capped.

Of course it cost the tax payer, they are getting their tax back and it doesn't attract anyone to play here I'd imagine so well paid rugby players are getting getting tax, which should be in the exchequer, back into their pockets.

Grants for GAA players are a direct cost to the exchequer. It appears, like everything, it will be cut. And I don't see why an amateur soccer, rugby or tiddlywinks player wasn't eligible.

I think they are but I would argue that IC GAA players are as entitled to a tax break/grant as any pro athlete living in Ireland.

Long and short of it, there is no equivalence between an amatuer and a pro in any field, and to want amatuers to get a grant because professionals have a tax exemption to me makes zero sense. Should someone who enjoys painting or strumming a guitar get a grant because professional artists do?

Of course you can equate amateur and professional athletes. Do our amateur boxers get any funding from the government? I'm sure they do, and it is well deserved, would you equate them with an amateur painter? An amateur athlete competing at a certain level is entitled to financial assistance from the tax payer to help him compete, an amateur player below that level is not IMO. IC players are as worthy recipients as any athletes in Ireland. Now whether any sports people should be getting tax breaks or grants beyond funding their sporting preparation is another argument but if the tax breaks exist for well paid professionals then I have no problem with high level amateurs getting a grant.

[dublinfella]

1. Still an expense to the taxpayer, the rest of your argument is a bit like the gpa report, you know - referring to money being generated and spent in the economy that actually originated in that same economy.

2. Any amateur sportsperson or organisation can apply to the sports council for a grant (no restriction on amateur actually, as it's hard to define in the likes of athletics etc).  The sports council can then decide if the individual or organisation is worthy of that grant. 

3. I still don't understand your original point about there being no equivalence between a pro and an amateur, however from what you've said here, I agree that the govt has no obligation to pay GAA players and that if anyone does, then it is the GAA itself that should be paying the players.  In saying that, I feel that GAA players at the top level are as worthy of grants as any other recipients I can think of, that including our various Olympians and professional golfers who have not yet made the breakthrough to be self financing.

1: I'm not sure how it costs the taxpayer to have an elite athlete move here and live here for a few years. As Hound says, the likes of McGinley are well above the cap, so their marginal income over €250k - a lot in this case, is taxed at 40% plus VAT on what they spend here.

2: An individual cannot. A sports body can. And it is at the sports bodies discretion how they divy it up to their members.

3: To me there is a fundamental difference between an Olympic athlete in a sport that cannot pay them direct, either because they don't have the spends, like the athletics, or because they have to be within the sports amateur definition, boxing and cycling, so they can prepare properly to represent the country against the worlds best and giving a GAA player a couple of grand for doing something he would be doing anyway, especially when the GAA is relatively cash rich. I appreciate there is a probable contradiction in how I treat and amateur boxer and an amateur hurler, but to me the Olympic grant scheme is a necessity so we don't send out complete duds.

The standard of Gaelic games will be in no way impacted by players getting a couple of grand a year. I see no justification for it.

[magpie seanie]

Is it a grant anyway?

I know the Government class it as such but they have been known to be economical with the truth at times.

According to the GAA its additional expenses cos if it were a grant if would be contrary to the amateur ethos and as we all know Croke Park and the GPA are staunch defenders of the amateur status.

It looks like payment to play intercounty football and hurling to me.

[dublinfella]

Of course it cost the tax payer, they are getting their tax back and it doesn't attract anyone to play here I'd imagine so well paid rugby players are getting getting tax, which should be in the exchequer, back into their pockets.

I can see that players who would play here anyway are a 'drain' to be fair, so am backtracking somewhat. But if a player on €250,001 moves over here, its 40c to the taxman. 40c we didn't have before. Plus they live and spend here when they never did before. To me its different than handing a player money.

I think they are but I would argue that IC GAA players are as entitled to a tax break/grant as any pro athlete living in Ireland.

Why?

Of course you can equate amateur and professional athletes. Do our amateur boxers get any funding from the government? I'm sure they do, and it is well deserved, would you equate them with an amateur painter? An amateur athlete competing at a certain level is entitled to financial assistance from the tax payer to help him compete, an amateur player below that level is not IMO. IC players are as worthy recipients as any athletes in Ireland. Now whether any sports people should be getting tax breaks or grants beyond funding their sporting preparation is another argument but if the tax breaks exist for well paid professionals then I have no problem with high level amateurs getting a grant.

But they get funding to represent Ireland in international competition and that funding allows them to be full time athletes. That improves standards and all that. Giving a hurler 3 grand doesn't make a difference to them other then being a gesture. If it was 30 grand, which is what the olympians get, then it would be a different story.

The €6m or whatever the GAA players were getting also comes from the same fund the olympians draw from. Less for them.

[Zulu]

I can see that players who would play here anyway are a 'drain' to be fair, so am backtracking somewhat. But if a player on €250,001 moves over here, its 40c to the taxman. 40c we didn't have before. Plus they live and spend here when they never did before. To me its different than handing a player money.

But the few that come here would probably come here anyway as they'll only benefit if they stay here, and whatever we gain from the tax paid be foreign we more than lose by the tax Irish lads aren't paying.

Why?

I would much rather see high level amateur athletes (of any code/sport) get tax payer funding to help or reward their efforts than professional athletes get additionally rewarded. I see no justification for giving well paid sports people money back while quibbling over small change for amateur sports people who add a huge amount to the fabric of our society.

But they get funding to represent Ireland in international competition and that funding allows them to be full time athletes. That improves standards and all that. Giving a hurler 3 grand doesn't make a difference to them other then being a gesture. If it was 30 grand, which is what the olympians get, then it would be a different story.

Are you saying you have a problem with giving GAA players an insignificant amount of money but you'd have no problem if the taxer payer gave them enough to allow them the time to improve their game?

The €6m or whatever the GAA players were getting also comes from the same fund the olympians draw from. Less for them.

And you feel that €6 million divided amongst our Olympic hopefuls would be the difference between winning and losing gold medals?

GAA players are getting a miserable amount of money that might pay for a holiday for themselves and the girlfriend. They at least deserve that from the country for what they provide in economic and entertainment terms.

If tax breaks were gone for pro athletes then I'd have no problem with getting rid of the grants, though I think they would still deserve them, but as long as one stays I see no issue with the other.

[dublinfella]

But the few that come here would probably come here anyway as they'll only benefit if they stay here, and whatever we gain from the tax paid be foreign we more than lose by the tax Irish lads aren't paying.

I'm not sure about which side of the equation is bigger, but the spirit of the rule is to retain and attract top sports people. And it helps.

I would much rather see high level amateur athletes (of any code/sport) get tax payer funding to help or reward their efforts than professional athletes get additionally rewarded. I see no justification for giving well paid sports people money back while quibbling over small change for amateur sports people who add a huge amount to the fabric of our society.

But why should there be ANY monetary reward for amateurs at anything?

The amount is irrelevant, since when did it become a tax payers liability to pay people who happen to be good at their hobby?

When you get into 'fabric of society' its wishy washy subjective nonsense.

Are you saying you have a problem with giving GAA players an insignificant amount of money but you'd have no problem if the taxer payer gave them enough to allow them the time to improve their game?

Not quite. Giving every single intercounty player a small amount, but a large amount overall is a pointless excercise. I could see some merit in taking 10 players and giving them enough grant money to go full time pro. Thats what they do with boxing, every boxer in the country who competes doesn't get a small wedge, only the very, very best, who pass a quantifiable benchmark in qulaifying for the Olympics get a grant. Thats in the region of a half dozen per tournament. The cream.

And you feel that €6 million divided amongst our Olympic hopefuls would be the difference between winning and losing gold medals?

Possibly...

Whats the difference to a GAA player if he doesn't get a grant?

GAA players are getting a miserable amount of money that might pay for a holiday for themselves and the girlfriend. They at least deserve that from the country for what they provide in economic and entertainment terms.

Why do they 'deserve' money? If they are 'deserving' of money, let the GAA pay it. Being good at a pursuit that can't pay you isn't justification for the taxpayer to step in. I'd rather give money for a holiday to those who man homeless shelters or deal with disabled kids voluntarily.

If tax breaks were gone for pro athletes then I'd have no problem with getting rid of the grants, though I think they would still deserve them, but as long as one stays I see no issue with the other.

If you want GAA players to be the direct equivalent of professional soccer or rugby players, pay them. Otherwise, they are not. They are the equivalent of amateur soccer and rugby players who get hee haw.

[Zulu]

I'm not sure about which side of the equation is bigger,

Really? You reckon there might be some debate about whether a handful of foreign rugby/soccer players bring in more in spending than all they tax lost through this scheme for Irish players?

But why should there be ANY monetary reward for amateurs at anything?

The amount is irrelevant, since when did it become a tax payers liability to pay people who happen to be good at their hobby?

And why should you and I pay tax and not a professional sports person? We are not paying amateur sports people, they are simply getting some tax funded break, like the professional athletes, but in a different way and in a much smaller fashion. They aren't simply good at their hobby, they are the best athletes in the most popular sports in the country. The GAA provides employment, tax revenues and money is spent that wouldn't otherwise be spent in this country so they contribute to the country in ways an AIL player or amateur golfer doesn't.

When you get into 'fabric of society' its wishy washy subjective nonsense.

No it's not. Sport matters and adds to the quality if life in a country. In Ireland the GAA does that more than any other sport, especially IC GAA. That, and the economic benefits of the GAA to Ireland justify, if it's going around, the small spend on GAA players.

Not quite. Giving every single intercounty player a small amount, but a large amount overall is a pointless excercise. I could see some merit in taking 10 players and giving them enough grant money to go full time pro. Thats what they do with boxing, every boxer in the country who competes doesn't get a small wedge, only the very, very best, who pass a quantifiable benchmark in qulaifying for the Olympics get a grant. Thats in the region of a half dozen per tournament. The cream.

Why is it pointless and who are you to judge? It's something and I'm sure the players, especially those without a job are grateful for it. Well to take your logic a step further should we not stop funding the many Irish athletes, who'll never win a medal in the Olympics, would it not be better to only fund the handful of athletes (if that) in all the Olympic sports that might medal? We already give too little money to many athletes for them to have a real chance of success and most of them don't have the natural talent to be successful anyway so I presume you think we shouldn't fund them?

Possibly...

Whats the difference to a GAA player if he doesn't get a grant?

Nonsense and you know it, €6 million would do nothing. I've already said why the money might mean something to a GAA player.

Why do they 'deserve' money? If they are 'deserving' of money, let the GAA pay it. Being good at a pursuit that can't pay you isn't justification for the taxpayer to step in. I'd rather give money for a holiday to those who man homeless shelters or deal with disabled kids voluntarily.

I've already said why they deserve it, they bring in money to the economy far in excess of the money they are getting out of it and if professional players 'deserve' it, as you suggest, then so do they. The FAI aren't funding the tax rebate, are they?

If you want GAA players to be the direct equivalent of professional soccer or rugby players, pay them. Otherwise, they are not. They are the equivalent of amateur soccer and rugby players who get hee haw.

What a crock!!! IC GAA players are only matched by international level rugby and soccer players in this country in terms of recognition and ability to draw spectators to games. They have nothing in common with lower level rugby or soccer players.

How you can justify well paid professionals getting tax back for being good at a sport, amateur boxers/athletes but not high level IC players is beyond me.

[Rossfan]

Because he's an anti GAA pro Soccer blinkered individual.

[dublinfella]

Zulu. In short, if IC players have a monetary value because they can draw spectators to games, its up to the GAA to pay them. Very straightforward. But that monetary value is limited because its not as if they can up and move to England because the money is better, or indeed move county.

The tax issue is an entirely seperate debate to this simple statement. But, as with the spat with ze Germans over 12.5% corporate tax, I still believe the state are right to t**ker with tax rates to encourage and retain certain industries. Professional sport is one if them.

[Redhand Santa]

they drink a lot of pints you know.  Most drive huge 4x4's that take about €100 to fill too.
Nordies tend to stay the weekend in Dublin too, thereby spending on hotels and michelin star restaurants too.
Ex-pats comig home normally have no access to tickets for the big games, thus they spend maybe ten times the face value on tickets, normally buy up 2 tickets as they want the american wife to come and see the unbridled joy that victory brings.  I addition, the ex-pats spend fortunes on buying drink for all their mates (who consequently spend nothing) all night long, just to show how well they've done for themselves since emigrating.

One million punters were at the championship this year. Even if we take a very liberal 200,000 of those being from the 6 counties or overseas, thats an average spend of €960 per person per game.

Not buying that myself.

Did you accidently forget about 500,000 of the punters or was that ignorance on your behalf?

[Redhand Santa]

It's ridiculous to suggest the gaa doesn't benefit the economy in Ireland. There is no doubt that if it wasn't for the gaa people would spend part of their money on products which lead to money going outside the Irish economy. That could be in the form of English premiershhip games, spending more money on holidays etc.

There is also no doubt that in terms of championship/league/club/international rules that it attracts large numbers of people from the North and people coming home from outside Ireland. There is also the tv rights sold to setanta and the sponsorship from companies who's money may not otherwise stay in Ireland. I'm sure there's also quite a bit of gaa merchandise sold outside of Ireland which would generate money.

I've no idea how accurate the €192m is but I'd have more faith in it than anything Dublinfella comes out with. I'd also much rather see our players who give a lot to their local communities benefit from the government rather than some overpaid greedy professional who could well afford to pay his tax.

[lawnseed]

people spout this shite about various events especially the north west and car rallies "oh this event is worth a million pound to the local economy" now can we have some funding or we cant afford to stage it. i was once told that a stage of the circuit of ireland brought 1 million into armagh city after i questioned the 25000 grant that armagh council gave them. i made the point that we should just keep staging rallies and cut the rates with all the money we'd make... they run it down little country roads... there aren't even shops or filling stations on these roads.. so how can they be putting money into the local economy? these figures are crazy estimates with no plausible or possible way of confirming them. sure all we'd have to do is keep playing games and we could chase the imf.. infact i think i'll quit work and make money playing football... hold on i better join the gpa first

[Redhand Santa]

they drink a lot of pints you know.  Most drive huge 4x4's that take about €100 to fill too.
Nordies tend to stay the weekend in Dublin too, thereby spending on hotels and michelin star restaurants too.
Ex-pats comig home normally have no access to tickets for the big games, thus they spend maybe ten times the face value on tickets, normally buy up 2 tickets as they want the american wife to come and see the unbridled joy that victory brings.  I addition, the ex-pats spend fortunes on buying drink for all their mates (who consequently spend nothing) all night long, just to show how well they've done for themselves since emigrating.

One million punters were at the championship this year. Even if we take a very liberal 200,000 of those being from the 6 counties or overseas, thats an average spend of €960 per person per game.

Not buying that myself.

Did you accidently forget about 500,000 of the punters or was that ignorance on your behalf?

You never did answer this.