We have 16 senior teams in laois and only 6 Ref that passed the fitness test to take control of all these games.2 of these Refs are port men. At the weekend one of these Refs was way out of his depth some of his decisions where so bad that you wonder did he have money on the game(which I doubt he had) we also have a celebrity Ref which he thinks the game is all about him. I know it's a thankless job.but for players to spend 3 nights a week training giving there time for club and county.To play the game they love it's hard to take for them.for me the Ref shouldn't be notice but when you walk out of O Moore Park the talk is all about the Ref.Is this only my opinion or what do ye guys think
Quote from: Portbush on September 30, 2019, 10:33:59 AM
We have 16 senior teams in laois and only 6 Ref that passed the fitness test to take control of all these games.2 of these Refs are port men. At the weekend one of these Refs was way out of his depth some of his decisions where so bad that you wonder did he have money on the game(which I doubt he had) we also have a celebrity Ref which he thinks the game is all about him. I know it's a thankless job.but for players to spend 3 nights a week training giving there time for club and county.To play the game they love it's hard to take for them.for me the Ref shouldn't be notice but when you walk out of O Moore Park the talk is all about the Ref.Is this only my opinion or what do ye guys think
I think the clubs should be much more active in encouraging former players to take up refereeing. Some clubs completely ignore it, and I would begin to impose sanctions on Clubs who don't provide referees to the County Board. I would take home games from them. We are at breaking point in Laois when it comes to referees, knifeing the ones we have will do f**k all good.
I'd also reduce the amount of senior clubs to 12 at the very least.
refereeing is such a tough job and the level of abuse they get is what puts people off becoming refs. there is no quick solution for the crisis of declining refs and we do not want to put pressure on clubs to provide refs just for the sake of doing so. maybe regional refereeing could be the way forward and with a bit more financial expense for travelling. clubs then could not moan also about a ref having connections to another club
Quote from: Neutralobserver on September 30, 2019, 10:52:06 AM
we do not want to put pressure on clubs to provide refs just for the sake of doing so.
Why not?
Quote from: Don Draper on September 30, 2019, 10:52:54 AM
Quote from: Neutralobserver on September 30, 2019, 10:52:06 AM
we do not want to put pressure on clubs to provide refs just for the sake of doing so.
Why not?
how good will they be? we cant force people to be refs? they need to want to do it themselves and have pride and an interest in it.
Quote from: Portbush on September 30, 2019, 10:33:59 AM
We have 16 senior teams in laois and only 6 Ref that passed the fitness test to take control of all these games.2 of these Refs are port men. At the weekend one of these Refs was way out of his depth some of his decisions where so bad that you wonder did he have money on the game(which I doubt he had) we also have a celebrity Ref which he thinks the game is all about him. I know it's a thankless job.but for players to spend 3 nights a week training giving there time for club and county.To play the game they love it's hard to take for them.for me the Ref shouldn't be notice but when you walk out of O Moore Park the talk is all about the Ref.Is this only my opinion or what do ye guys think
Thankfully we're talking about the minority of matches, and in fairness to Tarpey, conditions were bad, there was a lot at stake and it was tetchy. Some decisions were strange alright, particularly his interpretation of the tackle. This seemed to infuriate Rigney, and I believe rightly so.
As for the overall need for referees, who would want to do it? It's a couple of hours at least gone from your evening or day, and for what? 40 euro? I stand corrected on that. Who can commit to that sort of time for that sort of pittance if you have work commitments and family to worry about? Maybe if clubs supplemented the fee with an extra payment, it moght be worth some people's time and at least be more attractive as a proposition. I saw some players parking away from the ground yesterday while the usual hangers on got the VIP treatment. There's extra money to be had there for referees if everyone was treated the same. If the players can't park in the new car park, for whatever reason, then nobody should be let into it.
Quote from: Neutralobserver on September 30, 2019, 11:03:13 AM
Quote from: Don Draper on September 30, 2019, 10:52:54 AM
Quote from: Neutralobserver on September 30, 2019, 10:52:06 AM
we do not want to put pressure on clubs to provide refs just for the sake of doing so.
Why not?
how good will they be? we cant force people to be refs? they need to want to do it themselves and have pride and an interest in it.
People need a push. They may not know they want to do it. The way we're doing it isn't working.
It was a totally inept performance by the referee (and linesmen) yesterday and for sure the players deserve better.
Apart from an odd night to get a lesson on the latest rule change, is there any proper training provided for referees?
I would also agree that there should be enough money in the GAA to pay referees enough to encourage more participation.
I think LCB have lost 6 referees who done senior from last year. Hard to make that back up
Quote from: Batman!!! on September 30, 2019, 11:32:08 AM
I think LCB have lost 6 referees who done senior from last year. Hard to make that back up
It'll be very hard if the clubs don't make an effort
It'll also be very hard if the clubs don't clamp down themselves on abuse of referees.
Agreed Don, we all need to cool it with the abuse. County Board should be penal in their fines to clubs would not be long sorting all our behavior.
€45 is their payment
To be honest I have watched some odd decisions however I find the odd decisions are both ways favoring neither team. Also most of the people roaring abuse have no idea of the rules.
Money isn't good enough which I do agree with.the weather has nothing to do with the job that Ref done I seen him a couple of weeks back and he was no better.there is enough money being paid by the supporters to watch these games to pay a good Ref.its a thankless job I know that. It's a job I couldn't do because I know I wouldn't be able for it. Some of these guys are notable for it but still do it.i don't know what laois gaa do to train refs how many times a year they are assessed
So what we have here is lots of criticisms and no solutions. Its like being at a County Board meeting.
What are the solutions? Every game we now have referees been abused
Quote from: Batman!!! on September 30, 2019, 12:30:10 PM
What are the solutions? Every game we now have referees been abused
Put the focus on the clubs. Fine teams without mercy for abuse of referees. Punish clubs for not providing referees.
Quote from: Don Draper on September 30, 2019, 12:35:36 PM
Quote from: Batman!!! on September 30, 2019, 12:30:10 PM
What are the solutions? Every game we now have referees been abused
Put the focus on the clubs. Fine teams without mercy for abuse of referees. Punish clubs for not providing referees.
This is a voluntary organisation. Get a grip with your fines and punishments. Clown
Quote from: High Fielder on September 30, 2019, 12:48:53 PM
Quote from: Don Draper on September 30, 2019, 12:35:36 PM
Quote from: Batman!!! on September 30, 2019, 12:30:10 PM
What are the solutions? Every game we now have referees been abused
Put the focus on the clubs. Fine teams without mercy for abuse of referees. Punish clubs for not providing referees.
This is a voluntary organisation. Get a grip with your fines and punishments. Clown
And this is why we'll never have nice things.
Less of the name calling as well. I could call you names too if thats how you wish to proceed.
Clubs need to be forced into bringing their teams and supporters into line. Abuse of referees is out of control and the main reason we don't have ex players going into the role. Stop the abuse, and more will take the job.
But you keep calling names there, that'll help matters.
I and many others have taken enough of your bile not to worry about what you call us.
Forced. Fines. Punishments. Seriously? What if nobody has the time or inclination to be a referee? What then?
For what it's worth, abuse these days is criticism. He has been criticised, not abused. We all get that in our daily working lives. Let's not get too soft centred here
Quote from: High Fielder on September 30, 2019, 01:03:54 PM
I and many others have taken enough of your bile not to worry about what you call us.
Forced. Fines. Punishments. Seriously? What if nobody has the time or inclination to be a referee? What then?
For what it's worth, abuse these days is criticism. He has been criticised, not abused. We all get that in our daily working lives. Let's not get too soft centred here
What else is a fine execept forced? And I am referring to abuse not criticism. Calling a referee and f**king w**ker, a bollocks, chasing onto the field after him, following him to his car, thats not criticism and happens regularly on the pitches of Laois.
And I am serious, I'm serious about sorting out refereeing in this county. Punishing the clubs is the only way forward. The measures are already in place, and have been threatened repeatedly, its time to drop the hammer.
If nobody has the time or inclination to referee, then our games are finished. We should make it more hospitable for them to do so.
Abuse is criticism, f**king hell, we're at f**king nothing with that attitude.
this needs a two if not three pronged approach
I know in 1 neighboring County in the last 10 years,which faced a similar crisis as regards shortage of Refs,each club was given 18 months to have a ref or else they wouldn't be allowed enter any Competition.
The abuse and treatment of refs in Laois is getting worse year on year,Other Counties looking in at us are shocked by a lot of what has been let go and what continues on to be let go,it wouldn't go on in other counties what is let go on here.Tipperary has of late started to dish out hefty fines to clubs as regards behavior of mentors and Players.
We could do with 10/12 more refs across both codes in the county,at the minute there's no refs to ref u11 games and we are rapidly reaching the point where there wont be refs to ref u13 games,we will be soon enough at the point where there wont be enough to ref u15 games.
its that stark
There's an undercurrent to your posts that doesn't sit well with me. It assumes that everything a ref does is sacrosanct. That isn't right either.
We're talking about yesterday's game and I have yet to see any abuse of Mick Tarpey on here. If there is, point it out to me, or else stop the waffling
Quote from: High Fielder on September 30, 2019, 01:22:57 PM
There's an undercurrent to your posts that doesn't sit well with me. It assumes that everything a ref does is sacrosanct. That isn't right either.
We're talking about yesterday's game and I have yet to see any abuse of Mick Tarpey on here. If there is, point it out to me, or else stop the waffling
You're talking online abuse.
I am not.
Some clubs never provide a ref and its not good enough anymore.
Mountmellick, Rosenallis, Arles Killeen to name just three.
Then you have Port supplying Ward, McCann, Bracken and the second Ward lad.
are other counties in the same boat or how does it work with them, is the fee set or do individual county boards set the fees.
They should try and make it more attractive, free family tickets to all games in Laois and O'Moore Park. Refs who get county finals get All Ireland final tickets or somethings like that to incentivise the role. People only ref nowadays to help keep to thing going and a bit of self pride as the money is hardly outstanding and the abuse is at times disgraceful.
A player can have a bad game and basically gets an arm around the shoulder or a pat on the back, a ref has a bad game and a mob are after him with pitch forks.
the abuse is probably worse now than it ever was, but this is down to frustration on players part, club players put in so much effort nowadays and give up so much of their lives that when a contentious decision goes against them, so they lash out physicality and verbally, club players nowadays train like county teams did ten years ago. better pay and conditions would improve the standards
Quote from: the sash on September 30, 2019, 03:07:30 PM
the abuse is probably worse now than it ever was, but this is down to frustration on players part, club players put in so much effort nowadays and give up so much of their lives that when a contentious decision goes against them, so they lash out physicality and verbally, club players nowadays train like county teams did ten years ago. better pay and conditions would improve the standards
Or maybe the players are more privileged nowadays.
The guys who have quit this year must be coaxed back for 2020 someway anyways
Common sense from referees also goes along way not to irate players and officials. Saying that without the referees we would have no games and if a few fixtures fell by the wayside due to lack of referees then clubs might stand up and take note
Nobody wants to talk about it but there is another issue in the background here.
The county board have lost control of referees. This doesn't matter in the case of most referees as they are decent skins who are in it for the sake of giving something back or for the sake of a few quid (nothing wrong with this).
However, there are a handful of individuals (one in particular in each code) who have taken control of refereeing. They have serious influence over appointments, fitness tests, assessments etc.
There are referees who submit reports & then make contact with the CB to suggest what the punishment should be for incidents mentioned in their report. This is entirely beyond their remit and an abuse of power. Attempting to be the investigating officer, main witness, judge & jury.
The behaviour of a small number of officials during and after games has been downright disgraceful.
We had a prominent hurling referee who attempted to physically interfere with the referee after last years SHC final. The same man ended up at the door of the winners dressing room a few years ago calling a player out. He was an official at neither game. According to reports on here he tried to go boxing in the COE carpark after this years SHC QF.
His club mate spent several weeks on Facebook last year attacking the referee.
There is an element of "celebrity" here as was mentioned earlier. I would use other words too.
Unfortunately, in both codes, you are either in the clique or you are not.
I am aware that there is a shortage of referees and that 90% of them are doing their best in difficult circumstances. But the obvious problems pointed out on this thread already are the tip of the iceberg.
There is something rotten in the state of Laois refereeing.
Give respect and get respect is right!
There's currently 18 clubs supplying no ref,according to the 2019 laois handbook
Timahoe
Trumera
The Harps
Mountrath
Spink
Slieve Bloom
Park Ratheniska Timahoe
Mountmellick
Kyle
Abbeyleix
Arles Killeen
Arles Kilcruise
Ballinakill
Ballypickas
Ballyroan
Barrowhouse
Clonad (It pains me to say it)
Emo
Clubs pulling their weight
Clough Ballacolla 4
Portarlington 5
Rathdowney Errill 2
Graigecullen 3
Joseph's 3
Camross 3
Crettyard 3
Park Ratheniska 2
Ballylinan 2
The Heath 2
Colt 2
O'Dempseys 2
You can cut half the referees off that because a large amount hVe quit since the start of the year
Quote from: Batman!!! on September 30, 2019, 07:33:17 PM
You can cut half the referees off that because a large amount hVe quit since the start of the year
I'm well aware of that,it's also highly doubtful that any of the 18 clubs who didn't supply refs at the start of the year are now supplying them at the end of the year.
Who's over the referees does anyone know? What level of fitness training do they do and is anyone actually telling them about these mistakes
I listened to a good podcast over the summer called Against The Rules, it was by the fella who wrote The Blind Side and Moneyball. He did one of the episodes about referees in the NBA. The NBA invested millions upskilling referees, increasing their pay and also setting up a TV referees hub in New Jersey so that the referees in the stadiums could consult with a TV ref within seconds to make sure the correct call was made. All the surveys they conducted before and after have shown the referees have improved and a higher percentage of correct calls are made in every game, but the abuse towards referees has gotten worse and is being committed by more high profile players. His point was that people don't really want the correct call made by the referee, they only want calls made that suit them.
I would say this is heightened in the GAA because of the personal investment and parochialism involved with clubs. One thing that has struck me in recent years is the amount of abuse thrown at referees by teams who have been awarded a free, never mind the team that the free was given against. I'm not here to defend referees, but people can't expect to treat a group of fellas like dirt, fail to meaningfully invest in recruiting decent numbers, and then give out that the standard isn't high enough.
There's a major accountability problem when it comes to discipline in the GAA and I think that's one of the biggest problems with refereeing. Too many people in the GAA think punishments are only for other people and other clubs, and not their own, even when they are blatantly in the wrong. That comes back to the convoluted nature of the disciplinary process, and the only way to fix that is to streamline the whole thing, do away with appeals to the Leinster Council and DRA and all that oul sh*te. One avenue of appeal would be enough. Increase penalties on behaviour you don't want, anything less is tacit approval of that behaviour. Most senior championship games are played in O'Moore Park, the county board could easily set up a camera system in there to make sure there is video evidence from every game played there. It wouldn't take a huge investment to stretch that down to getting lads to video games at intermediate level or senior b in hurling. They could even offset the costs by selling the videos to the clubs to use for their own analysis, as most clubs now seem to video their games anyway.
If we want referees to be better, we need to increase the numbers doing it, attract the right people, retain them, and the put the right sort of pressure on them as well. Not pressure from abuse, but pressure from that fact they have been properly trained and certain standard is expected, and if they're not meeting it then there's lads there to take their place.
Mind you, I don't envisage any of that ever happening.
Agree but I was since told the football referees were hailed in twice over the championship to look at video clips of decisions whereas the hurling referees refused to attend. Not sure how true or false this is.
Quote from: Batman!!! on October 01, 2019, 09:26:53 AM
Agree but I was since told the football referees were hailed in twice over the championship to look at video clips of decisions whereas the hurling referees refused to attend. Not sure how true or false this is.
That's true as I know the Portarlington V Ballyroanabbey match was looked at in regards to the goal that never was.
I think one simple step could cure a lot if problems on the field. Increase the penalty for dissent to 50m. They wouldn't be long shutting up.
Quote from: steven seagal on September 30, 2019, 10:24:13 PM
I listened to a good podcast over the summer called Against The Rules, it was by the fella who wrote The Blind Side and Moneyball. He did one of the episodes about referees in the NBA. The NBA invested millions upskilling referees, increasing their pay and also setting up a TV referees hub in New Jersey so that the referees in the stadiums could consult with a TV ref within seconds to make sure the correct call was made. All the surveys they conducted before and after have shown the referees have improved and a higher percentage of correct calls are made in every game, but the abuse towards referees has gotten worse and is being committed by more high profile players. His point was that people don't really want the correct call made by the referee, they only want calls made that suit them.
I would say this is heightened in the GAA because of the personal investment and parochialism involved with clubs. One thing that has struck me in recent years is the amount of abuse thrown at referees by teams who have been awarded a free, never mind the team that the free was given against. I'm not here to defend referees, but people can't expect to treat a group of fellas like dirt, fail to meaningfully invest in recruiting decent numbers, and then give out that the standard isn't high enough.
There's a major accountability problem when it comes to discipline in the GAA and I think that's one of the biggest problems with refereeing. Too many people in the GAA think punishments are only for other people and other clubs, and not their own, even when they are blatantly in the wrong. That comes back to the convoluted nature of the disciplinary process, and the only way to fix that is to streamline the whole thing, do away with appeals to the Leinster Council and DRA and all that oul sh*te. One avenue of appeal would be enough. Increase penalties on behaviour you don't want, anything less is tacit approval of that behaviour. Most senior championship games are played in O'Moore Park, the county board could easily set up a camera system in there to make sure there is video evidence from every game played there. It wouldn't take a huge investment to stretch that down to getting lads to video games at intermediate level or senior b in hurling. They could even offset the costs by selling the videos to the clubs to use for their own analysis, as most clubs now seem to video their games anyway.
If we want referees to be better, we need to increase the numbers doing it, attract the right people, retain them, and the put the right sort of pressure on them as well. Not pressure from abuse, but pressure from that fact they have been properly trained and certain standard is expected, and if they're not meeting it then there's lads there to take their place.
Mind you, I don't envisage any of that ever happening.
Wonderful post.
Has Pat Moran retired?
I think any abuse of refs from players or mentors-should result in an automatic free in from 30 meters anything closer is moved straight in front of goals 13 meters out. As I heard the bould Tommy Tynan say at a juvenile match recently when bringing up the ball " you keep talking and I'll keep walking". It would cause mayhem for a while but if applied across the board players would realize that mouthing will cost scores and their teammates would very quickly impose discipline on the talkers
not one Laois huring referee has officiated in any of the leinster club competitions this winter, says a lot for the standard we are dealing with in the county.
Maybe we have nobody on the panel? I thought max age you could be was 40 for them lists. Could be wrong now.
Never mind the fixtures, the referee situation is the biggest thing on the GAA's agenda.
Without referees, there will be no games.
Quote from: Batman!!! on November 18, 2019, 11:05:48 PM
Has Pat Moran retired?
Ignore question. Answer was in the documents sent out by nial handy for the clubs for a county GAA meeting :-X
Have Laois Today opened a can of worms on this topic?
???
Did they do an article?
Referees are not angels and the article won't sit too well with clubs. Both Anthony Stapleton and Pat Moran suspended in recent times due to abuse they've given and no mention from Laois today
Quote from: Batman!!! on December 08, 2019, 11:46:52 PM
Referees are not angels and the article won't sit too well with clubs. Both Anthony Stapleton and Pat Moran suspended in recent times due to abuse they've given and no mention from Laois today
What article are you referring to, I can't see anything?
I see on Laois Today that Tomas Moore has left his role with Laois GAA. He will be a big loss as he was very efficient at his job. There's been a huge turnover in staff there in recent times.