Prison Sentences

[Insane Bolt]

I read today where a man charged with manslaughter of a woman who was on a boat with him on the Thames when it crashed, was charged, fled the country, yet is appealing the 5 year sentence he was given in his absence 😡.....and his legal aid bill currently stands at £100,000. The law is truly an ass.

[Insane Bolt]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/footballer-who-killed-pair-while-speeding-handed-road-ban-for-drink-driving/ar-BBRIGQ5?li=BBoPRmx

Another great sentence😡

[David McKeown]

What's the issue with it. A combination order and extended ban for drink driving seems appropriate to me from what's described in the article.

[Lar Naparka]

The older 3 strike policy in California didn't seem to work as a deterrent, where if you had been caught on a third time for even a misdemeanour you would get a life sentence.

25 years for stealing a bike seems like it should have been a strong deterrent, as a society we're better off trying to solve why these people are turning to crime than paying for them to sit in cells for the rest of their lives, both cost money but I know which is my preferred option.

That has always been my argument with people when discussing the criminal law system. It is an industry in itself anyway and governments have created a 'security' sectors which absolves them of any real responsibility. The breakdown of the social system at a very base level is the biggest contributor to crime than anything and if more money was invested in the ground level
I'm deprived areas then there would be a significant drop in crime in my very humble opinion

You may be surprised to learn that John Lonergan, the ex-governor of Mountjoy shares your opinion.
You probably know him, given your line of work and I imagine Tover does also.
Many years ago, when drug abuse was starting to make headlines, I got in touch with him.
I taught in Finglas and I could see the potential for problems of all sorts and I was afraid some of my pupils could well wind up in trouble with the law and with life in general. Something would have to be done to make them aware of the dangers of giving in to peer pressure.
I knew damn well that holding awareness lectures and getting reformed characters to arrive in a school to wag the finger and tell kids to keep away from drugs was a complete load of bollix waste of time. I had a primary sixth class of boys at the time and I had an excellent relationship with all of them so after one such visit, I asked the kids for their first, initial impression of the presentation, with flip charts and infographics and the likes.
Some told me they hadn't a clue because they lost attention as soon as it became obvious that they were going to be lectured about something or other- they had enough of the same from me.
Others were just waiting for the show to end so they could have the game of football I had promised them if they behaved themselves but the decider for me was when one kid said what struck him most was that if you took drugs and then stopped taking them you'd get a new suit of clobber and a pair of real leather shoes and all get to drive about in somebody else's car!
Every boy in the room put his hand up at that.
Desperate measures were called for in a manner of speaking. So, I got in touch with John Lonergan, through a mutual friend, and asked him if he'd let my little pets find out where they were likely to wind up if they started messing with drugs. Luckily enough, all parents without exception were in favour me taking their children to the prison.
He was all in favour of the idea and he allowed me bring them into Mountjoy and let them have a taste of what being deprived of one's liberty felt like. A few warders and a couple of prisoners in A wing co-operated and I was shit scared myself before I was five minutes in the place. The smell of shite was overpowering, and the warders acted as if they were serious and frisked each little bugger and pretended to fingerprint him and assigned him to a cell for a couple of minutes, just to see what being locked up was like.
We were all glad to get out of the place and no one of us even turned around until we got to McDonalds. When their fright had subsided somewhat, all my beloved little bunnies agreed on one thing; they'd never be returning and as far as I know, none ever has.
Any time after that, whenever I taught a sixth class, I made the same request to John Lonergan and got the same reply. The practice of slopping out must have been discontinued after my first visit as the pong about the place was absent after that but the result was still the same. Talk about shock therapy!
The object of my exercise here is to say that for any drug counselling or any other form of anti-social behaviour therapy to be effective, it must be presented in terms that the children are familiar with. Every school and youth club in the land should have access to a video showing what life without liberty can be like. Slick presentations and pious aspirations are no bloody use to any one, especially the intended target audience.

[Tover28]

Tover your story is very interesting cheers for that.

One thing to pick you up on... You have repeated a few times now about not planning to go back to prison but it wasn't that bad or anything like that. It isn't my business what you did but most peoples definition of "wasn't that bad or anything like that" wouldn't be something which would get you put in prison...

(P.S. Sorry not trying to have a go it's just the lingo gets me a wee bit as someone wanting to /having turned themselves around.)

Np bother. Think you picked me up wrong actually. I was answering the question about would I have been less likely to do what I did to go back to prison if prison meant hard labour and one meal a day. I was trying to say I wasnt thinking about the consequences when I did it like thinking prison wasnt that bad so I dont care if I end up back there. Thats what I meant.

I think I said it before but looking back I realise I deserved to go to prison for what I did,

[imtommygunn]

Ah ok. Mea culpa. As you were

[Insane Bolt]

What's the issue with it. A combination order and extended ban for drink driving seems appropriate to me from what's described in the article.

16 months for killing two people.....you think that's appropriate?

[Tover28]

Ah ok. Mea culpa. As you were

Yes Officer   

[brokencrossbar1]

Lar, I know who lonergan is and have listened to him several times on the radio and I met him once at a residential course. He had a very progressive approach to 'punishment' and definitely wasn't a 'one shape fits all' type.

Your approach to the school kids was excellent and probably more effective given the nature of their upbringing. I remember once when I was getting passport photos signed I had the Sergeant put myneldest in a cell For 5 minutes. Scared the life out of him!  There's a very big task and I honestly don't know if the authorities have the will to really take the risk on it

[trailer]

It's societies way of dealing with the problem. But you need to solve it. However that's really difficult when you are looking at 3rd and 4th generation unemployed, drug abuse, low income etc etc. Definitely encouraging these people not to bring children into the world they cannot support or look after is a pretty good place to start.

"These people" 

Those people? Them people? M people?
You are deliberately going out of your way to be offended.

[David McKeown]

What's the issue with it. A combination order and extended ban for drink driving seems appropriate to me from what's described in the article.

16 months for killing two people.....you think that's appropriate?

Oh sorry I thought you were referring to the subsequent drink drive sentence 6 years later. That's what I was referring to. In so far as the sentence you were talking about there's a few things that strike me about that. Firstly it was death by careless driving which carries a maximum sentence of 5 years and in fact has only carried prison at all for the last ten years. With a starting point of a non custodial sentence after trial for a first time offender. That will obviously depend on the culpability of the driver. In that regard therefore the sentence he got would have been on the harsher end of the usual sentence for such an offence. That said the article seems to suggest that the driving was very poor and possibly should have been dangerous driving which would have carried a likely sentence of 7-8 years.

So before I could really comment I'd need to know a bit more about the original case in terms of why careless, was it a plea or a jury decision etc

[Eamonnca1]

I don't see any deterrent.....bar conjugal rights what does a prisoner not have? They have access to medical/dental treatment, education, gyms, tv, mobile phones, 3 meals a day, no worries about heat....many pensioners/people don't have that. Some deterrent 😡

If it's such a holiday camp, why don't more people go and rob a bank and get themselves fixed up with such cushy accommodation?

[nrico2006]

What's the issue with it. A combination order and extended ban for drink driving seems appropriate to me from what's described in the article.

16 months for killing two people.....you think that's appropriate?

Oh sorry I thought you were referring to the subsequent drink drive sentence 6 years later. That's what I was referring to. In so far as the sentence you were talking about there's a few things that strike me about that. Firstly it was death by careless driving which carries a maximum sentence of 5 years and in fact has only carried prison at all for the last ten years. With a starting point of a non custodial sentence after trial for a first time offender. That will obviously depend on the culpability of the driver. In that regard therefore the sentence he got would have been on the harsher end of the usual sentence for such an offence. That said the article seems to suggest that the driving was very poor and possibly should have been dangerous driving which would have carried a likely sentence of 7-8 years.

So before I could really comment I'd need to know a bit more about the original case in terms of why careless, was it a plea or a jury decision etc

A girl I knew was one of two girls killed as a result of a drunk driver going down the wrong way on the M1. The drunk driver only served 2 years. Incredible really.

[Tony Baloney]

Rico everyone knows the death by dangerous driving sentences are a farce. In my opinion death by dangerous is the same as manslaughter and should be treated as such. Sentencing in NI generally seems to be lower than the rest of the UK for some strange reason.

[Eamonnca1]

The older 3 strike policy in California didn't seem to work as a deterrent, where if you had been caught on a third time for even a misdemeanour you would get a life sentence.

25 years for stealing a bike seems like it should have been a strong deterrent, as a society we're better off trying to solve why these people are turning to crime than paying for them to sit in cells for the rest of their lives, both cost money but I know which is my preferred option.

That has always been my argument with people when discussing the criminal law system. It is an industry in itself anyway and governments have created a 'security' sectors which absolves them of any real responsibility. The breakdown of the social system at a very base level is the biggest contributor to crime than anything and if more money was invested in the ground level
I'm deprived areas then there would be a significant drop in crime in my very humble opinion

The profit-making prison system here in the states is an abomination. Private corporations make money from warehousing human beings like cattle, there's no incentive to rehabilitate them, and they get paid more according to how many people they lock up and for how long. So off they go lobbying their friendly politicians who are happy to ramp up longer and longer mandatory minimum sentences for lesser and lesser offenses, and before you know it the prison population is the biggest in the world.

If I had my way the system in the US would have the following features:

1 - Private prisons should be illegal, the state is well able to take care of this service.
2 - Prison wardens and staff should be given performance-related pay based on how low their recidivism rates are. If you're running a place that cranks out safer citizens, you get paid more. If you're running a "tough on crime" hell-hole that works as a crime academy and just churns out more hardened criminals, you get paid less or better still you get eliminated. Prisons are supposed to improve public safety, not undermine it.
3 - Mandatory minimums should be abolished. Let the judges decide, not politicians or voters.