Martin Guinness

[Denn Forever]

Didn't knoe where to post this but the following heartened me greatly.

RIP Micheala

DUP leader Peter Robinson has visited the wake along with three senior colleagues, Stormont Ministers Nelson McCausland and Arlene Foster, and Lord [Maurice] Morrow.

[Rossfan]

The British state has already apologised for it. By the looks of things you nordie savages want every single person in Britain to file past past Northern Ireland and apologise for 800 years of rape murder and oppression.

They've only had 400 years in the North 

[Evil Genius]

First thing is I don't care how the British Constitution works (in regard to this issue). I'm speaking from an independent and sovereign nation here. If the Queen comes to Dublin she will respect the Irish constitution. The British Constitution has no authority here. We will treat her with the same respect anyother visitor would be treated with but it will be on Irish terms. If she wishes to be received by the State then she must abide by the conditions attached. If one of them Conditions is an apology for British Soldiers murdering Irish citizens then so be it. If McAleese goes to London she should expect the same. Obviously an agreement can be reached between Britain and Ireland but it definitely shouldn't be unconditional due to out of date monarchy laws. If an agreement can't be reached then she shouldn't be invited.

That's grand if Cameron was apologising on her behalf as her First Minister. i welcome that. It's not enough though. If I sent my PA to say sorry on my behalf it would rightly be seen as a cop out.

You see the difference in our views in you last point. She is the top dog. If the British want to promote the Queen as head of State and as leader of the armed forces don't hide behind stupid excuses when the world treat her as it.

Disingenuous (though I suspect you know that).

Or are you claiming that Martin McGuinness, who has no function, position or role in the Irish government, and doesn't even reside and pay his taxes etc there, should be allowed to dictate the terms by which the Irish Government may, or may not, issue invitations to visit the Republic?

The simple fact is that the Irish Government may impose whatever conditions it likes, and the Queen may accede, or demur, just as when invited to visit any other country.

As to whether the Irish Government make an apology by her for Bloody Sunday one of the conditions, they are quite entitled to do so, but somehow I doubt they will, not least because she already has apologised, to the satisfaction of the dead peoples families, in the House of Commons (via her First Minister).

[pintsofguinness]

Myles

So you think Gerry Adams has been truthful about his past?

Probably not

Odd. Last I heard, he was still claiming not to have been a member of the IRA. Do you think we should just accept that?

No, I think we should ask him ten times when he rises out of bed in the morning and ten times before he goes back to bed just to see will his answer change from the last hundred million times he was asked. 

And you talk as if investigations into IRA activities are done and dusted. While no criminal prosecutions resulted from Saville, at least the guilty soldiers had to come forward and be questioned about their actions. Have those who bombed Birmingham ever been held to account in that way? What about Bloody Friday?

Oh that's alright then, they got away with murder, back to their army pensions and medals. 
The guilty parties didn't serve time for the Birmingham bombing because the cops were too busy framing the wrong men.  What about bloody Friday? The culprits won't be brought to justice in every incident but at least those who were victims of the IRA, for the most part, had investigations in to their killings. Compare that with victims of state violence who had their names tarnished, lies told about them and no such investigations.  Only 14 of them got apologises, what about the rest?
Do you think the rest deserve apologies? Do you think they deserve proper investigations in to their murders?

[Maguire01]

By calling on the Queen to apologise for Bloody Sunday etc, you completely fail to understand the British Constitution, in two ways.
First, it is incompatible with her position as Head of State for her to express (partisan) political opinions, since those could conflict with the policies of the Government of the day, or a future government.
Second, the quid pro quo of this is that when Cameron apologised in the Commons, as her First Minister who was invited by her to form a Government, he was apologising on her behalf.

As such, his apology was no different from eg when she makes her speech at the State opening of Parliament, outlining the programme of legislation her  Government intends to introduce in the forthcoming session.

First thing is I don't care how the British Constitution works (in regard to this issue). I'm speaking from an independent and sovereign nation here. If the Queen comes to Dublin she will respect the Irish constitution. The British Constitution has no authority here. We will treat her with the same respect anyother visitor would be treated with but it will be on Irish terms. If she wishes to be received by the State then she must abide by the conditions attached. If one of them Conditions is an apology for British Soldiers murdering Irish citizens then so be it. If McAleese goes to London she should expect the same. Obviously an agreement can be reached between Britain and Ireland but it definitely shouldn't be unconditional due to out of date monarchy laws. If an agreement can't be reached then she shouldn't be invited.

I'm a bit lost with this one. How would/could the Queen disrespect the Irish constitution during a visit? Also, who would impose conditions on her visit? What would conditions normally be for a Head of State? I'd be pretty sure than no-one who would have the power to invite her would be demanding any such pre-conditions.

That's grand if Cameron was apologising on her behalf as her First Minister. i welcome that. It's not enough though. If I sent my PA to say sorry on my behalf it would rightly be seen as a cop out.

You see the difference in our views in you last point. She is the top dog. If the British want to promote the Queen as head of State and as leader of the armed forces don't hide behind stupid excuses when the world treat her as it.

I think it's a bit disingenuous to call the PM the Queen's PA. Her Head of State role is largely ceremonial, in ways similar to that of our own President. Should Mary McAleese apologise to the people of Ireland for the decisions taken by Ahern/Cowen that have left the country in such a mess?

For the vast majority of people, the Queen's visit will be an irrelevance. Some people will be looking for a reason to get annoyed.

[Myles Na G.]

Myles

So you think Gerry Adams has been truthful about his past?

Probably not

Odd. Last I heard, he was still claiming not to have been a member of the IRA. Do you think we should just accept that?

No, I think we should ask him ten times when he rises out of bed in the morning and ten times before he goes back to bed just to see will his answer change from the last hundred million times he was asked. 

And you think that's acceptable? Because Adams and SF have been fairly persistent over the years in their calls for enquiries into Bloody Sunday, the Ballymurphy shootings, and so forth. They have refused to accept the response that soldiers acted properly, professionally, etc. So why should we listen to Adams' demands for the truths from the British, yet have to put up with his lies and denials? That's called hypocrisy. Your response that he's refused to answer so many times we should just stop asking is pathetic. And, for the record, I believe that all victims of violence deserve justice. If I am critical of MMcG's call for an apology, it is simply because the apology has already been offered and accepted. Republicans' refusal to acknowldege this is just more evidence that they are so steeped in their sense of victimhood, that they can't move forward.

[pintsofguinness]

Because Adams and SF have been fairly persistent over the years in their calls for enquiries into Bloody Sunday, the Ballymurphy shootings, and so forth. They have refused to accept the response that soldiers acted properly, professionally, etc. So why should we listen to Adams' demands for the truths from the British, yet have to put up with his lies and denials?

Why does it matter who's calling for the investigations/truth etc. That should not be an obstacle to it.

It doesn't matter what I think is acceptable or not - Adams has been quizzed thousands of times about his IRA involvement, had investigations in to him etc.  Those who murdered innocent people while wearing the uniform of a British soldier, RUC member etc didn't and haven't faced anything.

[lawnseed]

Tubridy is possibly a bigger tube than you peter, terrible line of questionning. How long will Rte persist with this attitude to SF? For rightly or wrongly things have moved on so much yet they still go for the 'Gay' ambush

this is the best summing up of tubridys interview.

[Myles Na G.]

Because Adams and SF have been fairly persistent over the years in their calls for enquiries into Bloody Sunday, the Ballymurphy shootings, and so forth. They have refused to accept the response that soldiers acted properly, professionally, etc. So why should we listen to Adams' demands for the truths from the British, yet have to put up with his lies and denials?

Why does it matter who's calling for the investigations/truth etc. That should not be an obstacle to it.

It doesn't matter what I think is acceptable or not - Adams has been quizzed thousands of times about his IRA involvement, had investigations in to him etc.  Those who murdered innocent people while wearing the uniform of a British soldier, RUC member etc didn't and haven't faced anything.

And throughout, he has steadfastly refused to tell the truth. So tell me why I should listen to him or the party he leads when he calls for 'the truth' about anything? Why should I listen to his deputy when he calls for apologies, when he refuses (and he refused again on Tubridy) to call on his boss to tell the truth? Why should I listen anytime SF tries to climb on to the moral high ground and condemn the British for this, that and the other, when they themselves demonstrate time and again that they are economical with the truth?

[pintsofguinness]

I couldn't give a f**k if you listen to them or not - I know I don't.

Just because Sinn Fein call for investigations in to the murders by British Forces doesn't mean that those victims don't deserve justice.  Until the Brits are a lot more forthcoming I agree that we should not be welcoming their head of state to the 26 counties.

[lawnseed]

the sdlp also call for investigations into british 'security' force murders myles what would you like them to admit to.
 

[Myles Na G.]

I couldn't give a f**k if you listen to them or not - I know I don't.

Just because Sinn Fein call for investigations in to the murders by British Forces doesn't mean that those victims don't deserve justice.  Until the Brits are a lot more forthcoming I agree that we should not be welcoming their head of state to the 26 counties.

Agreed.
Disagree with the rest. I'm in favour of some sort of truth commission, if it could be arranged and if everyone signed up to it. I don't agree that, in the meantime, we should stop normal relations with our closest neighbour until they own up to everything their soldiers ever did here, particularly since those who were killing their soldiers and their civilian population  (together with anyone else who got in the way) refuse to do the same.

[Myles Na G.]

the sdlp also call for investigations into british 'security' force murders myles what would you like them to admit to.

That they're shite?

[pintsofguinness]

I couldn't give a f**k if you listen to them or not - I know I don't.

Just because Sinn Fein call for investigations in to the murders by British Forces doesn't mean that those victims don't deserve justice.  Until the Brits are a lot more forthcoming I agree that we should not be welcoming their head of state to the 26 counties.

Agreed.
Disagree with the rest. I'm in favour of some sort of truth commission, if it could be arranged and if everyone signed up to it. I don't agree that, in the meantime, we should stop normal relations with our closest neighbour until they own up to everything their soldiers ever did here, particularly since those who were killing their soldiers and their civilian population  (together with anyone else who got in the way) refuse to do the same.

You say you want justice for the victims of state violence yet you wouldn't support investigations (proper investigations) in to those crimes?  Well, maybe, if Gerry Adams admitted to being in the IRA or some shite.

That doesn't make much sense unless of course you're not bothered about the victims of state violence getting justice at all. 

[Myles Na G.]

I couldn't give a f**k if you listen to them or not - I know I don't.

Just because Sinn Fein call for investigations in to the murders by British Forces doesn't mean that those victims don't deserve justice.  Until the Brits are a lot more forthcoming I agree that we should not be welcoming their head of state to the 26 counties.

Agreed.
Disagree with the rest. I'm in favour of some sort of truth commission, if it could be arranged and if everyone signed up to it. I don't agree that, in the meantime, we should stop normal relations with our closest neighbour until they own up to everything their soldiers ever did here, particularly since those who were killing their soldiers and their civilian population  (together with anyone else who got in the way) refuse to do the same.

You say you want justice for the victims of state violence yet you wouldn't support investigations (proper investigations) in to those crimes?  Well, maybe, if Gerry Adams admitted to being in the IRA or some shite.

That doesn't make much sense unless of course you're not bothered about the victims of state violence getting justice at all.

Proper investigations like Saville? Sorry, we can't afford it. Like the HET? They're not having a huge amount of success, if you haven't noticed. They're under resourced, too much time has passed in many cases, witnesses have died, etc. Really the HET is just a comfort blanket for those who never got justice at the proper time. You either have a truth commission which everyone buys into, or you accept that things happened which are never going to be properly unravelled. I don't agree with the one sided approach advocated by people like Adams and Mcguinness, whereby the British force their soldiers to come forward and answer questions about their deeds, while the IRA issue a vague expression of regret for all their misdeeds, then tell everyone to move on and forget the past.