Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.

[naka]

Thought that was naive of Adams as it undermines an awful lot of families who are campaigning for inquiries into incidents where their loved ones were executed by the state.
U can't have differences between the two sides .

[Maguire01]

You can't have it both ways lads. The McConville family say Adams has information on her because Brendan Hughes and Dolores Price said that as a senior member of the IRA in Belfast he would have be aware of what's going on. However the same two people also said she was shot for being an informer after previously being warned. So either they're right, she was an informer and yes in a war situation any side would have to do the same and execute her, or they're wrong, and the family have no evidence to be connecting Adams to this.

Well no actually, it's quite possible that they could be right on one count and wrong on the other. And either way, if it was a war, it's still a war crime, is it not?

[gallsman]

You can't have it both ways lads. The McConville family say Adams has information on her because Brendan Hughes and Dolores Price said that as a senior member of the IRA in Belfast he would have be aware of what's going on. However the same two people also said she was shot for being an informer after previously being warned. So either they're right, she was an informer and yes in a war situation any side would have to do the same and execute her, or they're wrong, and the family have no evidence to be connecting Adams to this.

You're conveniently ignoring that they played judge and jury in addition to their role ad executioner.

[Ulick]

You can't have it both ways lads. The McConville family say Adams has information on her because Brendan Hughes and Dolores Price said that as a senior member of the IRA in Belfast he would have be aware of what's going on. However the same two people also said she was shot for being an informer after previously being warned. So either they're right, she was an informer and yes in a war situation any side would have to do the same and execute her, or they're wrong, and the family have no evidence to be connecting Adams to this.

Well no actually, it's quite possible that they could be right on one count and wrong on the other. And either way, if it was a war, it's still a war crime, is it not?

Shooting an informer/spy during a war is a 'war crime'? No I wouldn't consider that a war crime.

[Ulick]

You can't have it both ways lads. The McConville family say Adams has information on her because Brendan Hughes and Dolores Price said that as a senior member of the IRA in Belfast he would have be aware of what's going on. However the same two people also said she was shot for being an informer after previously being warned. So either they're right, she was an informer and yes in a war situation any side would have to do the same and execute her, or they're wrong, and the family have no evidence to be connecting Adams to this.

You're conveniently ignoring that they played judge and jury in addition to their role ad executioner.

I'm not ignoring anything. In the context of war, conflict or whatever you want to call it, summary justice is usually all one can expect.

[Maguire01]

You can't have it both ways lads. The McConville family say Adams has information on her because Brendan Hughes and Dolores Price said that as a senior member of the IRA in Belfast he would have be aware of what's going on. However the same two people also said she was shot for being an informer after previously being warned. So either they're right, she was an informer and yes in a war situation any side would have to do the same and execute her, or they're wrong, and the family have no evidence to be connecting Adams to this.

Well no actually, it's quite possible that they could be right on one count and wrong on the other. And either way, if it was a war, it's still a war crime, is it not?

Shooting an informer/spy during a war is a 'war crime'? No I wouldn't consider that a war crime.

Although Nuala O'Loan concluded there was no evidence that she was an informer.... and does the disappearance of the body not constitute a war crime?

Either way, that's a side issue to the point I was responding to. It's quite possible that Brendan Hughes and Dolores Price may be wrong on one point (that Jean McConville was an informer) and correct on another (i.e. who was involved). There's no logic that says either both elements of their account are either right or both elements are wrong.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

You can't have it both ways lads. The McConville family say Adams has information on her because Brendan Hughes and Dolores Price said that as a senior member of the IRA in Belfast he would have be aware of what's going on. However the same two people also said she was shot for being an informer after previously being warned. So either they're right, she was an informer and yes in a war situation any side would have to do the same and execute her, or they're wrong, and the family have no evidence to be connecting Adams to this.

You're conveniently ignoring that they played judge and jury in addition to their role ad executioner.

I'm not ignoring anything. In the context of war, conflict or whatever you want to call it, summary justice is usually all one can expect.

It's been a while since I read it so I maybe wrong but were you not promoting/running a website campaign for justice for some IRA members shot dead?

Was that not just something that happens in war?

/Jim

[Saffrongael]

It was only a war when it suits

[deiseach]

It was only a war when it suits

I remember the Guardian hack Michael White wading into the news that there would be no inquiry into the murder/killing of Pat Finucane with an airy dismissal of any concerns. It was a war, what did you expect? He also threw in the canard about the emotional Micks and how unreasonable they could be. It was a theme he carried on in comments. If you objected, that proved you were an emotional Mick. The weird thing is that I managed to be surprised that a writer on a lefty paper like the Graun could file something that wouldn't look out of place in the Torygraph. Why was I surprised at anything from Fleet Street on the subject?

[Ulick]

Although Nuala O'Loan concluded there was no evidence that she was an informer.... and does the disappearance of the body not constitute a war crime?

Either way, that's a side issue to the point I was responding to. It's quite possible that Brendan Hughes and Dolores Price may be wrong on one point (that Jean McConville was an informer) and correct on another (i.e. who was involved). There's no logic that says either both elements of their account are either right or both elements are wrong.

Of course they may have been wrong (as may O'Loan also) on either point but if you are going to talk about war crimes then that is all besides the point anyway. The point being that they (Hughes/Price/IRA/Adams/Whomever) believed that under the circumstances and available evidence that she was an informer. Therefore it was probably justifiable in their eyes that it was militarily necessary and proportional that she be executed - given that she had been warned previously to no effect. I'm not a lawyer but I think to prove it a war crime you'd have to prove they knew she wasn't an informer, come up with a reasonable motive and some evidence to show they knew she wasn't an informer. I've yet to see any of this.

I don't know if the disappearance of the body is a war crime, but that's not the act which has been under discussion.

[gallsman]

The summary execution of someone isn't a war crime? Interesting perspective there.

[Ulick]

It's been a while since I read it so I maybe wrong but were you not promoting/running a website campaign for justice for some IRA members shot dead?

Was that not just something that happens in war?

/Jim

I was Jim, the families were looking an inquest and disclosure as to what happened  when they were killed. The McConvilles deserve the same - and I believe some of their family members were given some disclosure of events (however limited).

[Ulick]

Today in 1919

"On 7 April 1919, Broy smuggled Collins into G Division's archives in Great Brunswick Street (now Pearse Street), enabling him to identify "G-Men", six of whom would be killed by the IRA."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eamon_Broy

[lynchbhoy]

It's been a while since I read it so I maybe wrong but were you not promoting/running a website campaign for justice for some IRA members shot dead?

Was that not just something that happens in war?

/Jim

I was Jim, the families were looking an inquest and disclosure as to what happened  when they were killed. The McConvilles deserve the same - and I believe some of their family members were given some disclosure of events (however limited).

I actually wouldn't be actively persuing these inquests on either side as imo it is pointless. Maybe not to the families immediately concerned and connected, but what good will come of any inquest. Those dead are dead. Practically all evidence is too difficult to collect and cases impossible to prove.
This was war. Terrible things happened on both sides, nothing trumps death. Instigators or retaliators - does it matter now.
People are coming out of the woodwork to whinge and moan about it all. It's done. It's over. Slow progression is still being made. Where we have gotten to would never have been possible without the intervention of militant republicans - sadly. By the same token the modern British governments have accepted that previous policy in the six counties was wrong and without their modern day help, peace was a long way off.
I'm just happy the bad old days are gone. It's not perfect now and the six counties is just an economic backwater and sihthole like many other backwards places in the world. That's the reality. I know many won't agree, but for many others who had their fill of and enough of the bad old days - it's time to move on and consign history to the books.

[gallsman]

It's been a while since I read it so I maybe wrong but were you not promoting/running a website campaign for justice for some IRA members shot dead?

Was that not just something that happens in war?

/Jim

I was Jim, the families were looking an inquest and disclosure as to what happened  when they were killed. The McConvilles deserve the same - and I believe some of their family members were given some disclosure of events (however limited).

I actually wouldn't be actively persuing these inquests on either side as imo it is pointless. Maybe not to the families immediately concerned and connected, but what good will come of any inquest. Those dead are dead. Practically all evidence is too difficult to collect and cases impossible to prove.
This was war. Terrible things happened on both sides, nothing trumps death. Instigators or retaliators - does it matter now.
People are coming out of the woodwork to whinge and moan about it all. It's done. It's over. Slow progression is still being made. Where we have gotten to would never have been possible without the intervention of militant republicans - sadly. By the same token the modern British governments have accepted that previous policy in the six counties was wrong and without their modern day help, peace was a long way off.
I'm just happy the bad old days are gone. It's not perfect now and the six counties is just an economic backwater and sihthole like many other backwards places in the world. That's the reality. I know many won't agree, but for many others who had their fill of and enough of the bad old days - it's time to move on and consign history to the books.

I'm sure you felt the same about Bloody Sunday, yes?