Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

We can get all emotional about it if you want...

Emotional? Nah, I've better things to be getting emotional about than what a few inveterate partitionists have cobbled together. 

[Maguire01]

Patronising? Your post clearly implied you didn't know the difference between a nation and a state - I was posting about the state and you replied with reference to the nation.

I posted in reply to Fear ón Srath Bán, who made a specific and useful point. I didn't say anything, one way or the other, that was related to something you might have said a dozen posts earlier.

But he made an incorrect point. And you said he was 'spot on'. The conversation was about the state, not the nation. The state was never defined as 32 counties - either before or after amendments to Articles 2 and 3 - the nation was.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

The state was never defined as 32 counties - either before or after amendments to Articles 2 and 3 - the nation was.

Pre-1999, Articles 2 and 3 made the claim that the whole island formed one 'national territory'. It's a moot point therefore, whether 'national territory' as envisaged constituted the 'state':


Article 2

    The national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas.

Article 3

    Pending the re-integration of the national territory, and without prejudice to the right of the parliament and government established by this constitution to exercise jurisdiction over the whole territory, the laws enacted by the parliament shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws of Saorstat Éireann[3] and the like extra-territorial effect.

[armaghniac]

As you can see above, the State chose, without prejudice, to restrict its laws at present to the 26 counties. It was a 32 county State that chose to restrict itself for the present.

[Maguire01]

As you can see above, the State chose, without prejudice, to restrict its laws at present to the 26 counties. It was a 32 county State that chose to restrict itself for the present.

It didn't have a choice - the state didn't have sovereignty over the 6 counties. A state is limited by its sovereignty. Therefore there wasn't a 32 county state.

[Maguire01]

The state was never defined as 32 counties - either before or after amendments to Articles 2 and 3 - the nation was.

Pre-1999, Articles 2 and 3 made the claim that the whole island formed one 'national territory'. It's a moot point therefore, whether 'national territory' as envisaged constituted the 'state':


Article 2

    The national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas.

Article 3

    Pending the re-integration of the national territory, and without prejudice to the right of the parliament and government established by this constitution to exercise jurisdiction over the whole territory, the laws enacted by the parliament shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws of Saorstat Éireann[3] and the like extra-territorial effect.

But that's the point we were discussing.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

But that's the point we were discussing.

The 'national territory' of 32 counties equated to the 'state' in pre-1999 Articles 2 & 3. That's moot to you it seems, but not to me.

[lynchbhoy]

Patronising? Your post clearly implied you didn't know the difference between a nation and a state - I was posting about the state and you replied with reference to the nation.

I posted in reply to Fear ón Srath Bán, who made a specific and useful point. I didn't say anything, one way or the other, that was related to something you might have said a dozen posts earlier.

But he made an incorrect point. And you said he was 'spot on'. The conversation was about the state, not the nation. The state was never defined as 32 counties - either before or after amendments to Articles 2 and 3 - the nation was.

Prior to 1921 wasn't Ireland a 32 county state?
Albeit under English jurisdiction.

Presently 6 counties are still under English jurisdiction , but that will eventually change.

Articles 2 &3 are a misnomer. We voted to relinquish them as they meant nothing , but it was a move we were told would assist reunification ( by showing unionist/loyalists we can be flexible and forthcoming).
It has no eventual bearing on reunification, just like articles 2&3 didn't.
Economy, system changes ( north and south - dole, welfare, medical etc) and 32 county referendum will only alter this.

[Maguire01]

Patronising? Your post clearly implied you didn't know the difference between a nation and a state - I was posting about the state and you replied with reference to the nation.

I posted in reply to Fear ón Srath Bán, who made a specific and useful point. I didn't say anything, one way or the other, that was related to something you might have said a dozen posts earlier.

But he made an incorrect point. And you said he was 'spot on'. The conversation was about the state, not the nation. The state was never defined as 32 counties - either before or after amendments to Articles 2 and 3 - the nation was.

Prior to 1921 wasn't Ireland a 32 county state?
Albeit under English jurisdiction.

No. The state was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The 32 counties didn't have sovereignty. In the same way as Scotland isn't a state now.

[lynchbhoy]

Patronising? Your post clearly implied you didn't know the difference between a nation and a state - I was posting about the state and you replied with reference to the nation.

I posted in reply to Fear ón Srath Bán, who made a specific and useful point. I didn't say anything, one way or the other, that was related to something you might have said a dozen posts earlier.

But he made an incorrect point. And you said he was 'spot on'. The conversation was about the state, not the nation. The state was never defined as 32 counties - either before or after amendments to Articles 2 and 3 - the nation was.

Prior to 1921 wasn't Ireland a 32 county state?
Albeit under English jurisdiction.

No. The state was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The 32 counties didn't have sovereignty. In the same way as Scotland isn't a state now.

That's not my point - what you are describing as a 'state'.
they were a 32 county entity.
Home rule and various other reunification efforts were always about the 32 county entity.
At some points ( Parnell) this was close to happening.

Whether its a fully established self determining 32 county state/entity or not ( currently not) the world sees it as such - Ireland!

Bought black sabbath tickets from the english branch of ticketmaster and they were advertising the gig
Black sabbath , Belfast, Ireland.
That's how the world sees it, whether politically correct ( or in place) or not!

[theticklemister]

Patronising? Your post clearly implied you didn't know the difference between a nation and a state - I was posting about the state and you replied with reference to the nation.

I posted in reply to Fear ón Srath Bán, who made a specific and useful point. I didn't say anything, one way or the other, that was related to something you might have said a dozen posts earlier.

But he made an incorrect point. And you said he was 'spot on'. The conversation was about the state, not the nation. The state was never defined as 32 counties - either before or after amendments to Articles 2 and 3 - the nation was.

Prior to 1921 wasn't Ireland a 32 county state?
Albeit under English jurisdiction.

No. The state was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The 32 counties didn't have sovereignty. In the same way as Scotland isn't a state now.

That's not my point - what you are describing as a 'state'.
they were a 32 county entity.
Home rule and various other reunification efforts were always about the 32 county entity.
At some points ( Parnell) this was close to happening.

Whether its a fully established self determining 32 county state/entity or not ( currently not) the world sees it as such - Ireland!

Bought black sabbath tickets from the english branch of ticketmaster and they were advertising the gig
Black sabbath , Belfast, Ireland.
That's how the world sees it, whether politically correct ( or in place) or not!

I wouldnt say that Lynchboy........

sure in my hometown everyone calls it Derry-Londonderry. Apparently its the new 'thing'. May I add that everyone calls it the UK city of culture also.

[Maguire01]

Patronising? Your post clearly implied you didn't know the difference between a nation and a state - I was posting about the state and you replied with reference to the nation.

I posted in reply to Fear ón Srath Bán, who made a specific and useful point. I didn't say anything, one way or the other, that was related to something you might have said a dozen posts earlier.

But he made an incorrect point. And you said he was 'spot on'. The conversation was about the state, not the nation. The state was never defined as 32 counties - either before or after amendments to Articles 2 and 3 - the nation was.

Prior to 1921 wasn't Ireland a 32 county state?
Albeit under English jurisdiction.

No. The state was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The 32 counties didn't have sovereignty. In the same way as Scotland isn't a state now.

That's not my point - what you are describing as a 'state'.
they were a 32 county entity.
Home rule and various other reunification efforts were always about the 32 county entity.
At some points ( Parnell) this was close to happening.

Whether its a fully established self determining 32 county state/entity or not ( currently not) the world sees it as such - Ireland!

Bought black sabbath tickets from the english branch of ticketmaster and they were advertising the gig
Black sabbath , Belfast, Ireland.
That's how the world sees it, whether politically correct ( or in place) or not!

I wasn't arguing popular perception. I was talking about the constitutional and political reality.

And for every band listing 'Belfast, Ireland', I can show you another listing 'Belfast, UK'.

[lynchbhoy]

Patronising? Your post clearly implied you didn't know the difference between a nation and a state - I was posting about the state and you replied with reference to the nation.

I posted in reply to Fear ón Srath Bán, who made a specific and useful point. I didn't say anything, one way or the other, that was related to something you might have said a dozen posts earlier.

But he made an incorrect point. And you said he was 'spot on'. The conversation was about the state, not the nation. The state was never defined as 32 counties - either before or after amendments to Articles 2 and 3 - the nation was.

Prior to 1921 wasn't Ireland a 32 county state?
Albeit under English jurisdiction.

No. The state was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The 32 counties didn't have sovereignty. In the same way as Scotland isn't a state now.

That's not my point - what you are describing as a 'state'.
they were a 32 county entity.
Home rule and various other reunification efforts were always about the 32 county entity.
At some points ( Parnell) this was close to happening.

Whether its a fully established self determining 32 county state/entity or not ( currently not) the world sees it as such - Ireland!

Bought black sabbath tickets from the english branch of ticketmaster and they were advertising the gig
Black sabbath , Belfast, Ireland.
That's how the world sees it, whether politically correct ( or in place) or not!

I wouldnt say that Lynchboy........

sure in my hometown everyone calls it Derry-Londonderry. Apparently its the new 'thing'. May I add that everyone calls it the UK city of culture also.

Everyone?
Really?
Think we all know this phrase is in vogue right now to generate 'inclusiveness' - and not have the unionist/loyalists rioting and trying to ruin the event!

[lynchbhoy]

Patronising? Your post clearly implied you didn't know the difference between a nation and a state - I was posting about the state and you replied with reference to the nation.

I posted in reply to Fear ón Srath Bán, who made a specific and useful point. I didn't say anything, one way or the other, that was related to something you might have said a dozen posts earlier.

But he made an incorrect point. And you said he was 'spot on'. The conversation was about the state, not the nation. The state was never defined as 32 counties - either before or after amendments to Articles 2 and 3 - the nation was.

Prior to 1921 wasn't Ireland a 32 county state?
Albeit under English jurisdiction.

No. The state was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The 32 counties didn't have sovereignty. In the same way as Scotland isn't a state now.

That's not my point - what you are describing as a 'state'.
they were a 32 county entity.
Home rule and various other reunification efforts were always about the 32 county entity.
At some points ( Parnell) this was close to happening.

Whether its a fully established self determining 32 county state/entity or not ( currently not) the world sees it as such - Ireland!

Bought black sabbath tickets from the english branch of ticketmaster and they were advertising the gig
Black sabbath , Belfast, Ireland.
That's how the world sees it, whether politically correct ( or in place) or not!

I wasn't arguing popular perception. I was talking about the constitutional and political reality.

And for every band listing 'Belfast, Ireland', I can show you another listing 'Belfast, UK'.

Most people in the world see it as a single identity-Ireland!

I'd not be surprised to see 'Belfast-uk' as isn't this the current  assignation!
But my example is just to show what most of the world thinks!

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Patronising? Your post clearly implied you didn't know the difference between a nation and a state - I was posting about the state and you replied with reference to the nation.

I posted in reply to Fear ón Srath Bán, who made a specific and useful point. I didn't say anything, one way or the other, that was related to something you might have said a dozen posts earlier.

But he made an incorrect point. And you said he was 'spot on'. The conversation was about the state, not the nation. The state was never defined as 32 counties - either before or after amendments to Articles 2 and 3 - the nation was.

Prior to 1921 wasn't Ireland a 32 county state?
Albeit under English jurisdiction.

No. The state was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The 32 counties didn't have sovereignty. In the same way as Scotland isn't a state now.

That's not my point - what you are describing as a 'state'.
they were a 32 county entity.
Home rule and various other reunification efforts were always about the 32 county entity.
At some points ( Parnell) this was close to happening.

Whether its a fully established self determining 32 county state/entity or not ( currently not) the world sees it as such - Ireland!

Bought black sabbath tickets from the english branch of ticketmaster and they were advertising the gig
Black sabbath , Belfast, Ireland.
That's how the world sees it, whether politically correct ( or in place) or not!

I wouldnt say that Lynchboy........

sure in my hometown everyone calls it Derry-Londonderry. Apparently its the new 'thing'. May I add that everyone calls it the UK city of culture also.

Everyone?
Really?
Think we all know this phrase is in vogue right now to generate 'inclusiveness' - and not have the unionist/loyalists rioting and trying to ruin the event!

Bloody hell lads

State = 26 counties
Nation = 32 counties
Island = 32 counties
Country = 26 &/or 32 counties

My state is not Southern Ireland, Mexico, The Irish Free State, Free State etc. it is Ireland or Eire.