Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Since the Irish nation is stated to live in the 32 Counties, this defines Ireland.

Yep, anyone who trumpets about 'Ireland' being the 26 counties (only) might as well be saying "my leaders were so incredibly (constitutionally) incompetent, but I'm so proud of their crass and feckless ineptitude (and God bless the Germans for their bountiful munificence)!" 

[Maguire01]

Right, it seems there is a bit of confusion here.

My initial response was to the following:

There is no state of Ireland

There is in fact a state of Ireland. It's in black and white, in the Constitution. It's not my opinion - and i'm not 'trumpeting' anything - it's fact. Any arguments over how amendments to Articles 2 and 3 were handled do not alter the fact that there is a state of Ireland.

As for the last 3 posts, it seems to me that Fear ón Srath Bán and armaghniac don't understand the difference between 'nation' and 'state'. The differentiation was always in Articles 2 and 3. Prior to 1999, Article 2 referred to the national territory (i.e. the nation) consisting of the whole island, but Article 3 noted the limitations in jurisdiction of the government to the state.

Just to reiterate, this is not my opinion, nor am I 'trumpeting' - it's just the reality.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

There is in fact a state of Ireland. It's in black and white, in the Constitution...

And if you think that just because the state of 'Ireland' is so arrogantly claimed to be just the 26 counties in the Irish Constitution then that's how the world sees it, you're delusional.

Like it or not, it will always be (erroneously, yet again) the 'Republic of Ireland' or more correctly the 'Irish Republic'.

[theticklemister]

This land was undemocratically partitioned by an occupying country so all the drivel that has taken place on this thread in the last few pages does not matter one iota to me about state and nation.

I cant believe the arrogance and hatred that has gone on here.

[lynchbhoy]

Mayogodhelpyou - with the greatest respect, your own retort there is as full of the paranoia you attest to the six county folk.
Hate?
The northern nationalists hate southerners?
That's crazy!
Jealousy - yes!
I live and work in Dublin and all I hear from the west and Munster is they hate Dublin and the dubs and that Dublin are always getting the jobs, they aren't true Irishmen because they are from inside the pale - does that remind you of anything ( or anyone)!!!

Not saying that you say this about Dublin- but I hear it v often ( from highly educated people in provincial parts of the organisation I work in)!

Also you tar nationalists with the same brush as unionist/loyalists - a byproduct of and a victory for the media propaganda machine! There is a chasm of difference in outlook towards progression and inclusiveness of these groups.

I am no shinner by the way, proving your flawed over presumptuousness.

You may not like the shinners but they as a political party are equally as inept as fg and ff so I don't know how you can claim they'd ruin the country any more than fg are doing and ff did!

I will say no more on it, but I hope you now can see that you mental pre-conditioning is badly skewing your objectivity!

[lynchbhoy]

So the current whinge is about a silly pin.
Crass yes, silly yes , but what's the big deal.


It doesn't matter if people wear a unionist jack and tricolor pin , there are swathes of unionists/loyalists that will not accept any joint consent and attempts for inclusion or equality etc.
They want the status quo to remain and see all inclusion and joint initiatives as an erosion of this on the way to Irish reunification.
They are correct I may add. But they may as well get inside the tent before it starts raining!

[armaghniac]

As for the last 3 posts, it seems to me that Fear ón Srath Bán and armaghniac don't understand the difference between 'nation' and 'state'. The differentiation was always in Articles 2 and 3. Prior to 1999, Article 2 referred to the national territory (i.e. the nation) consisting of the whole island, but Article 3 noted the limitations in jurisdiction of the government to the state.

Just to reiterate, this is not my opinion, nor am I 'trumpeting' - it's just the reality.

Not trumpeting, but contriving to be patronising. Of course I understand the difference between the nation and State.
I'm not rowing into this debate, except to say that the constitution did envisage that the State would be called Ireland internationally, but the usage of diminishing the Irishness of the 6 counties was not intended. As I said, I am very surprised that some attention was not paid to this in the GFA when surely some adjustments could have been made. 

AS for mayogodhelpus it is a bit like shitstirring pointing that Rory O'Carroll or Bryan Cullan don't actually come from the local authority called Dublin. So what?

[Maguire01]

There is in fact a state of Ireland. It's in black and white, in the Constitution...

And if you think that just because the state of 'Ireland' is so arrogantly claimed to be just the 26 counties in the Irish Constitution then that's how the world sees it, you're delusional.

Like it or not, it will always be (erroneously, yet again) the 'Republic of Ireland' or more correctly the 'Irish Republic'.

Well that's the way the United Nations and the European Union sees it. We can get all emotional about it if you want. But the 'state' is the 26 counties and it's called Ireland. That's the constitutional and legal reality.

And again, i'm not talking about the nation, but the state. If the 'state' was the 32 counties, then the 6 counties would be ruled from Dublin and not London.

[theticklemister]

There is in fact a state of Ireland. It's in black and white, in the Constitution...

And if you think that just because the state of 'Ireland' is so arrogantly claimed to be just the 26 counties in the Irish Constitution then that's how the world sees it, you're delusional.

Like it or not, it will always be (erroneously, yet again) the 'Republic of Ireland' or more correctly the 'Irish Republic'.

Well that's the way the United Nations and the European Union sees it. We can get all emotional about it if you want. But the 'state' is the 26 counties and it's called Ireland. That's the constitutional and legal reality.

And again, i'm not talking about the nation, but the state. If the 'state' was the 32 counties, then the 6 counties would be ruled from Dublin and not London.

Do ye think this is legal?

[Maguire01]

As for the last 3 posts, it seems to me that Fear ón Srath Bán and armaghniac don't understand the difference between 'nation' and 'state'. The differentiation was always in Articles 2 and 3. Prior to 1999, Article 2 referred to the national territory (i.e. the nation) consisting of the whole island, but Article 3 noted the limitations in jurisdiction of the government to the state.

Just to reiterate, this is not my opinion, nor am I 'trumpeting' - it's just the reality.

Not trumpeting, but contriving to be patronising. Of course I understand the difference between the nation and State.
I'm not rowing into this debate, except to say that the constitution did envisage that the State would be called Ireland internationally, but the usage of diminishing the Irishness of the 6 counties was not intended. As I said, I am very surprised that some attention was not paid to this in the GFA when surely some adjustments could have been made. 

Patronising? Your post clearly implied you didn't know the difference between a nation and a state - I was posting about the state and you replied with reference to the nation. And there's not much point in 'rowing into the debate', because it's about fact, not opinion. And the facts are clear.

On the point of the GFA, what would your solution have been? To change the reference in Article 4 to the Republic of Ireland? The south?

[Maguire01]

There is in fact a state of Ireland. It's in black and white, in the Constitution...

And if you think that just because the state of 'Ireland' is so arrogantly claimed to be just the 26 counties in the Irish Constitution then that's how the world sees it, you're delusional.

Like it or not, it will always be (erroneously, yet again) the 'Republic of Ireland' or more correctly the 'Irish Republic'.

Well that's the way the United Nations and the European Union sees it. We can get all emotional about it if you want. But the 'state' is the 26 counties and it's called Ireland. That's the constitutional and legal reality.

And again, i'm not talking about the nation, but the state. If the 'state' was the 32 counties, then the 6 counties would be ruled from Dublin and not London.

Do ye think this is legal?

What specifically are you referring to?

[theticklemister]

The two juristictions here

[deiseach]

I remember reading an obituary to RB McDowell where it referred to his belief that there was no separate Irish identity, that after a thousand-plus years of integration of some description, 'Ireland' did not exist independently of Britain. It's a powerful idea if applied correctly - just ask any Scot and thank God that we're surrounded by water - and it's because of such a school of thought exists, bolstered as it always has been by overwhelming numbers and the threat of violence, that it was very important that the 26 county state laid claim to the concept of 'Ireland' as a political entity. Would Seamus Heaney have felt able to write that his passport was green if the 26 county state had maintained a wish-washy insistence that it was only partially Ireland rather than defiantly stating it to all and sundry? It's complicated, but it's precisely because it's complicated that I think it was, and still is, important for us to stake a claim to the notion of Ireland as a baseline for the ongoing debate.

[Maguire01]

The two juristictions here

Of course it's legal.

The rights and wrongs of partition is another matter, but the legality is clear on the jurisdictions.

If the Dublin government attempted to tax residents in the 6 counties, what way do you thing the courts would rule?

[armaghniac]

Patronising? Your post clearly implied you didn't know the difference between a nation and a state - I was posting about the state and you replied with reference to the nation.

I posted in reply to Fear ón Srath Bán, who made a specific and useful point. I didn't say anything, one way or the other, that was related to something you might have said a dozen posts earlier.