The Many Faces of US Politics...

[J70]

So lets put the shoe on the other foot for a moment and say John Podesta (who has serious Russian issues himself) was wiretapped while running Hillarys campaign. The FISA warrants for the wiretap were approved in part based on an unverified opposition research memo paid for and directed by the Trump Campaign and the RNC.  Based on what youve said so far, youd be perfectly fine with that???

Oh And while all this is going on a senior DOJ official (under a sitting Republican administration) held 2 secret meetings with the firm that drafted the unverified memo.

If the other evidence on Podesta suggested that there were legitimate grounds for concern, absolutely. And I would have no issue with any law enforcement official meeting with such sources to find out what they know.

Which of course is not to say that the rules for disclosure should not be followed.

The DOJ official held 2 UNAUTHORIZED and UNDISCLOSED  meetings and was DEMOTED for doing so.

He was not a law enforcement official going about his regular business as you casually implied

And As far as I know he also failed to disclose that his wife worked for Fusion GPS.

The he 2 questions that now need to be answered are:

(1) Woukd and he warrant have been issued without the dossier?

(2) Was it disclosed in the FISA application that the dossier was opposition research paid for by the DNC and the Clinton campaign?

If the answer is no to either (or both) of these question.....then this is a huge win for Trump

IF there was stuff going on that needed to be authorized from above, then of course action should be taken against any such individual.

And yes, those are the two questions, although I would think the first one is the key one.

If the application would have been approved anyway, I don't the disclosure thing being of much help to Trump.

Especially when the entire picture is taken into account.

This is all about PR. Trump is not being prosecuted or impeached, and he doesn't give a f**k about underlings, unless, as some speculation suggest, his kids are under the microscope.

[whitey]

http://www.zdnet.com/article/in-obamas-final-year-us-secret-court-denied-record-number-of-surveillance-requests/

In Obamas final year a record number of FISA requests were denied

We also need to know why they were denied and who was the subject of the wiretap?

This whole thing stinks to high heaven

[Gabriel_Hurl]

Good man whitey - keep fighting the good fight

[heganboy]

What stinks too high heaven is the assumption that this is all politically motivated by partisans.
The law of unintended consequences of painting the FBI as a political organization is at best misguided, and at worst could have a significant impact on law enforcement in the states.
There are attempts to manipulate the public in their voting behaviours. The social media companies promote divisive posts in order to increase traffic and make money. This has not gone unnoticed and the case has been proceed that the Russians exploited this to sow seeds of division. How far they got with their other efforts with both Democrats and Republicans is yet to be clear.
There has always been and will all be attempts to sway individual politicians. However the legal system's protection of the impact of money in elections which is in place in the vast majority of democratic countries is glaringly absent in the US.
The American public have been so distracted by this nonsense and infighting that they do not realise the number being pulled on them.
The tax code is broken, as is the education system and the healthcare system. Get on the subway in New York to see the state of the infrastructure here.
For many years and still now, huge swathes of voters here opt for low taxes on the wealthy, because they all think they are going to be wealthy too. the American dream.
There is no awareness of basic economic realities, and as a result, politicians on both sides of the divide prey on aspirational dreamers.
This situation will continue to get worse before it gets better. While many Dems blame Trump, his presidency is a manifestation of all that has come before it.
The lack of real news and debate with facts has obfuscated the reality of the economic situation in the US. The DJIA or Dow is sadly for both the Obama lovers and the Trump lovers not a great economic indicator. Presidential power has little immediate impact on the overall economy. In a dichotomous political system these hens always come home to roost...

[seafoid]

What stinks too high heaven is the assumption that this is all politically motivated by partisans.
The law of unintended consequences of painting the FBI as a political organization is at best misguided, and at worst could have a significant impact on law enforcement in the states.
There are attempts to manipulate the public in their voting behaviours. The social media companies promote divisive posts in order to increase traffic and make money. This has not gone unnoticed and the case has been proceed that the Russians exploited this to sow seeds of division. How far they got with their other efforts with both Democrats and Republicans is yet to be clear.
There has always been and will all be attempts to sway individual politicians. However the legal system's protection of the impact of money in elections which is in place in the vast majority of democratic countries is glaringly absent in the US.
The American public have been so distracted by this nonsense and infighting that they do not realise the number being pulled on them.
The tax code is broken, as is the education system and the healthcare system. Get on the subway in New York to see the state of the infrastructure here.
For many years and still now, huge swathes of voters here opt for low taxes on the wealthy, because they all think they are going to be wealthy too. the American dream.
There is no awareness of basic economic realities, and as a result, politicians on both sides of the divide prey on aspirational dreamers.
This situation will continue to get worse before it gets better. While many Dems blame Trump, his presidency is a manifestation of all that has come before it.
The lack of real news and debate with facts has obfuscated the reality of the economic situation in the US. The DJIA or Dow is sadly for both the Obama lovers and the Trump lovers not a great economic indicator. Presidential power has little immediate impact on the overall economy. In a dichotomous political system these hens always come home to roost...

Very good stuff. The US is a plutocracy. It needs a  new system.

[J70]

http://www.zdnet.com/article/in-obamas-final-year-us-secret-court-denied-record-number-of-surveillance-requests/

In Obamas final year a record number of FISA requests were denied

We also need to know why they were denied and who was the subject of the wiretap?

This whole thing stinks to high heaven

0.5% were rejected. 9/1,752.

Sounds like there's serious abuse of the system going on all right.

But yeah, let's get some answers. And let's keep the transparency going.

However, I would imagine that in this, like most outragefests, the actual results are not the point; the opportunity to spin the other side as evil demons while you demand an investigation is.

[whitey]

http://www.zdnet.com/article/in-obamas-final-year-us-secret-court-denied-record-number-of-surveillance-requests/

In Obamas final year a record number of FISA requests were denied

We also need to know why they were denied and who was the subject of the wiretap?

This whole thing stinks to high heaven

0.5% were rejected. 9/1,752.

Sounds like there's serious abuse of the system going on all right.

But yeah, let's get some answers. And let's keep the transparency going.

However, I would imagine that in this, like most outragefests, the actual results are not the point; the opportunity to spin the other side as evil demons while you demand an investigation is.

If im reading it correctly 21 were rejected in close to 40 years of those 21, 9 were rejected  in Obamas final year

Who were they trying to surveil and why were they rejected?

Add in the fact that one of the most senior DOJ officials was secretly meeting with Steele and Fusion GPS

WE NEED ANSWERS!

[J70]

http://www.zdnet.com/article/in-obamas-final-year-us-secret-court-denied-record-number-of-surveillance-requests/

In Obamas final year a record number of FISA requests were denied

We also need to know why they were denied and who was the subject of the wiretap?

This whole thing stinks to high heaven

0.5% were rejected. 9/1,752.

Sounds like there's serious abuse of the system going on all right.

But yeah, let's get some answers. And let's keep the transparency going.

However, I would imagine that in this, like most outragefests, the actual results are not the point; the opportunity to spin the other side as evil demons while you demand an investigation is.

If im reading it correctly 21 were rejected in close to 40 years of those 21, 9 were rejected  in Obamas final year

Who were they trying to surveil and why were they rejected?

Add in the fact that one of the most senior DOJ officials was secretly meeting with Steele and Fusion GPS

WE NEED ANSWERS!

Think you need to bold the letters and make them bigger.

It could be a multitude of reasons. Stricter judges, sloppy work on the part of employees, someone chancing their arm for partisan reasons...

I have little knowledge of the workings of the FISA world (same as most people).

On this site, however, there is a note for 2016 regarding a change in the reporting requirements for 2016: https://epic.org/privacy/surveillance/fisa/stats/

28. The Government's reporting methodology changed significantly in 2016. The letter states that "In addition to reporting statistics based on the number of final filed applications, as has been the Government's historical practice, this letter also includes for the first time statistics published by the Director of the Administrative Office of the United States Courts (AOUSA). Unlike the Government, the AOUSA reports the number of proposed applications rather than the number of final filed applications. More specifically, Rule 9(a) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court Rules of Procedure requires the Government to submit proposed applications at least seven days before the Government seeks to have a matter entertained by the FISC. Modifications or withdrawals of applications may occur between the filing of a proposed application and the filing of a final application for a variety of reasons, including the Government modifying a proposed application in response to questions or concerns raised by the Court.


Assuming these are the same figures, perhaps the inclusion of "proposed", instead of just "final filed" applications in the numbers is a factor. Would "proposed" applications ever be rushed before a judge and rejected (or otherwise end up as "rejected")?

Possibly not, but again, disclaimer, I have absolutely no clue and am just contributing to a low-information discussion.

For someone who is so adamant that there is skullduggery on the part of the Dems and some FBI people, however, you're very reluctant to draw any conclusions from the patterns and actions of Trump and his associates. Even if you're right on the former, it doesn't preclude wrongdoing on the part of the latter.

[whitey]

Why are senior DOJ officials holding secret meetings with Steele and Fusion GPS?

Was the FISA judge informed that this was opposition research?

How influential was the dossier in getting the wiretapping warrant?

Had the DOJ attempted to surveillance other Trump associates?

Unless we get answers to these questions the Mueller Investigation is tainted beyond belief.

All these shenanigans are undermining the investigation. 

[J70]

Why are senior DOJ officials holding secret meetings with Steele and Fusion GPS?

Was the FISA judge informed that this was opposition research?

How influential was the dossier in getting the wiretapping warrant?

Had the DOJ attempted to surveillance other Trump associates?

Unless we get answers to these questions the Mueller Investigation is tainted beyond belief.

All these shenanigans are undermining the investigation.

Why is Mueller tainted?

[whitey]

Why are senior DOJ officials holding secret meetings with Steele and Fusion GPS?

Was the FISA judge informed that this was opposition research?

How influential was the dossier in getting the wiretapping warrant?
I
Had the DOJ attempted to surveillance other Trump associates?

Unless we get answers to these questions the Mueller Investigation is tainted beyond belief.

All these shenanigans are undermining the investigation.

Why is Mueller tainted?

I said the Mueller Investigation was tainted, not Mueller himself.....big difference

If the warrants were improperly obtained because someone at the FBI/DOJ either lied or didn't disclose where the dossier came from (add in Bruce Ohrs unauthorized meeting with both Steele and Fusion GPS) the entire investigation can be brushed off as a partisan hit job

[J70]

Why are senior DOJ officials holding secret meetings with Steele and Fusion GPS?

Was the FISA judge informed that this was opposition research?

How influential was the dossier in getting the wiretapping warrant?
I
Had the DOJ attempted to surveillance other Trump associates?

Unless we get answers to these questions the Mueller Investigation is tainted beyond belief.

All these shenanigans are undermining the investigation.

Why is Mueller tainted?

I said the Mueller Investigation was tainted, not Mueller himself.....big difference

If the warrants were improperly obtained because someone at the FBI/DOJ either lied or didn't disclose where the dossier came from (add in Bruce Ohrs unauthorized meeting with both Steele and Fusion GPS) the entire investigation can be brushed off as a partisan hit job

Obviously I meant the investigation.

The warrants in question predated the dossier. They key obviously is whether their renewal hinged on the dossier or not.

If they didn't, what does that mean for Mueller?

And what about the obstruction of justice stuff? Does that disappear? If so, Bill Clinton will be having a moment of bitter reflection. Perjured himself and got impeached over testimony over a bj which had nothing to do with the origins of the Starr investigation.

[whitey]

Are you sure the warrants predate the dossier

This timeline suggests different

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/politics/wp/2018/01/30/a-complete-timeline-of-the-events-behind-the-memo-that-threatens-to-rip-d-c-in-two/

[J70]

Are you sure the warrants predate the dossier

This timeline suggests different

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/politics/wp/2018/01/30/a-complete-timeline-of-the-events-behind-the-memo-that-threatens-to-rip-d-c-in-two/

I stand corrected.

[stew]

Are you sure the warrants predate the dossier

This timeline suggests different

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/politics/wp/2018/01/30/a-complete-timeline-of-the-events-behind-the-memo-that-threatens-to-rip-d-c-in-two/

I stand corrected.

You sure do!
)