Would you be in favour of a second tier?

[five points]

it's being insinuated. What is the difference between a tiered club championship and a tiered county championship?

With that question, it's you who are doing the insinuating.

[CountyColours]

I'm just interested in hearing why you are completely against a tiered county championship (full of so called "no hoper" teams in a completion that means nothing to anyone) yet you don't seem to have an issue with a tiered club championship?

[Rossfan]

I think 5 Points is from the 6 Cos so would be automatically against anything new

[five points]

I'm just interested in hearing why you are completely against a tiered county championship (full of so called "no hoper" teams in a completion that means nothing to anyone) yet you don't seem to have an issue with a tiered club championship?

Because the two are not comparable.

Club championships are indeed tiered between senior, intermediate and junior. The new competition isn't. It's a shield competition for designated teams who fail to progress in the championship proper.

[Esmarelda]

The main point in the "why can't it work at county level when it works at club level" question, is one of culture.

The club championship has always been tiered and anyone growing up and coming into an adult club team is aware of this.

The intercounty championship has always been one tier and the same perception would apply.

Of course in 20, 30 or 40 years time we could look back and wonder how come we didn't have a tiered championship back in the 20th century. It made such sense

But in order for people to buy into a new culture, you need to listen to them and take on board what they want.

This proposal has ignored what the players' union has said. They specifically said that they wanted more meaningful games in the summer. Half of the teams in Tier 2 will still play two games. Another four will play just three.

This is very likely to fail when it needn't have.

[CountyColours]

Club championships are largely dictated by what division club teams are in within their league i.e. division 1 = senior championship.

Essentially, the new 2-tiered championship is mostly dictated by the same.

If the GAA introduced a third tier and removed the reward for getting to a provincial final, they would be operating in a very similar way.

For me, i'm open to the idea of trying to improve the championship - which I think is needed. If the interest level is right then it could work... of course, id be very worried about that aspect alone. But then again, i know how much attention my own county has received (and many of the other weaker counties) over the last number of years, so I can't see it being much worse.

[thewobbler]

I'm just interested in hearing why you are completely against a tiered county championship (full of so called "no hoper" teams in a completion that means nothing to anyone) yet you don't seem to have an issue with a tiered club championship?

Here's why.

In club structures (well, I'm assuming in the majority of counties), you start your year with two goals in mind: a strong league campaign, and to win the championship in which you've been entered; Senior, Intermediate or Junior (this is even the case in B football).

Even the best footballer in the land can align his personal goals with his club's goals, no matter how meagre.

In the tiered county system, your goals may be the same, except a) you will want to win your provincial championship, and b) you are technically entered into the All-Ireland Championship by virtue of your provincial entry.

There will be 4-8 teams in D3 every year who have something of a chance of reaching a provincial final. The luck of the draw definitely matters here, as does gaining home advantage in a quarter-final.

They might not even have to hit form to do that. Offaly could qualify for a Leinster final having playing D4 teams only.

That draw will determine just how seriously they take the provincials, once the league is done. They'll be aware of this challenge from the previous October and will train accordingly.

But they're not the ones that the tired system hurts.

A better example would be Down, Derry or Cork in D3. Call them sleeping giants, call them underachievers, call them last year's man. Call them whatever you want.

They're still big counties and will pump time and money into trying to get promoted. And if they don't, they'll pump time and money into winning their province, no matter who they're drawn against.

Should that journey end in a semi-final defeat, then this new competition is effectively asking everyone involved to reset their season goals, and immediately refocus on a new, fourth goal.

Except this goal is one that is much less prestigious, and for a large percentage of players (especially during the formative years of this competition), will be at best a sideshow, when they want to be playing club football, or earning a few quid in America.

Yet county boards still have to finance this sideshow. Club fixtures secretaries still have to balance these unwanted fixtures into their calendars.

County managers will have to convince players to put aside club commitments and american overtures. Even if they can manage that, they've the harder job again of motivating them on the day to treat it like championship football, when it's not. Not in its formative years anyway, as it will be missing the fundamental spirit of championship football, which is that everyone on the pitch wants to win.

If it were to run long enough, undoubtedly the B Championship would produce a success story of a county progressing from B Champions to AI Champions, whether by accident or design.

I just can't see the competition lasting long enough for this to happen. The absolute peak of what it can achieve in its first 3-5 years is a good final between two teams on an upward curve, and generate a sense of good will around GAA followers. But even that would be mostly lost by the following spring when all the more important competitions kick back into the memory.

A more likely outcome is that by year 3, counties will begin to opt out, and the subsequent final will take place on a Saturday afternoon July, somewhere in the midlands in front of 400 people, with only a shakycam recording the action. And we will have gone full circle to the AI B Championship of 20 years ago.

[Cunny Funt]

What is the difference between a tiered club championship and a tiered county championship?

That's like asking what is the difference between a pint of Guinness and glass of coke a cola.

[Rossfan]

Good post by Wobbler.
In trying  to get the Tier 2 voted through the GAA have brought in "escape clauses" which emasculate the Competition in effect.
By the way what's with "400 people Saturday night in the Midlands" ?
You're about the 5th poster to come up with that scenario

[CountyColours]

Some great points Wobbler, definitely food for thought. I can see where you are coming from 100% – it's far from perfect. The only thing I would say is there are already many county standard players out there at the moment who have are opting out / going to the states / don't want to commit. I don't think we are going to see a major variance in this based on the old championship format versus the new one. Players do not have the same level of interest nowadays based on (1) realistic prospects and (2) commitments required.

For the underachievers, such as Cork, Down etc. there will be no better incentive to get yourself promoted to division 2 – knowing you will end up playing in the tier 1 championship. This will make division 2 and 3 especially competitive which I think is good. I would not have much sympathy for teams that miss the cut, that is sport, keep building and the provincial championships will still lie ahead for those teams to push on.

If you flip the argument upside down and look majority teams in division 3 and 4 (Antrim, Wicklow, Limerick, Carlow, Leitrim, etc..) on the whole what were their championship goals pre-2 tier? I would guess it's to win one championship game...and to do this you hope that you get another division 3 or 4 team in your provincial championship / qualifier game. Gaining promotion in the league is arguable more important for those clubs.

My initial point was that the championship as it stood needed change. This may not be the right way to go about it - but i'm willing to give it a trial.

[five points]

Good post by Wobbler.
In trying  to get the Tier 2 voted through the GAA have brought in "escape clauses" which emasculate the Competition in effect.
By the way what's with "400 people Saturday night in the Midlands" ?
You're about the 5th poster to come up with that scenario

Remember this http://www.hoganstand.com/county/down/article/index/110157

"Is the prize of gaining promotion to be sent to Longford on a Saturday night?" 

[thewobbler]

But the point is CountyColours that the back door qualifiers have never been anything other than a stay of execution for D4 teams. It decreased their chances of reaching the latter stages of the AI. Any train of thought that suggested otherwise was always misguided.

But what the back door seems to have done has festered a belief among many Gaels that there is some system out there that somehow will make the championship more rewarding for our weaker counties.

The fundamental reality is this dream system just doesn't exist. Giving them more games against stronger sides only increases the number of batterings they'll take. Giving them more games against weaker sides before letting the big guns loose on them is simply cruel.

The clear and obvious answer is not to give them more games in a competition they're not fit for. So in principle I fundamentally agree with a 16 team AI championship.

But unfortunately this clear answer is then twisted and turned into a "we have to give them something instead". This isn't true. What weaker counties need more than anything is a strong National League that will allow them to improve gradually. A shortened season in which game time and training time is closer to equal, should help them ensure their best players come onboard fully committed.

Nobody really needs a B championship. And most people don't want one.

——

The remark about the Midlands is simple. Once everyone can accept that a B final in an empty Croke Park has all the same atmosphere as a bad mass, it'll be shuffled around the country. When there's a local-ish derby, it will sensibly be put in a convenient location to both counties and the attendance will reflect. When it's counties from either end of Ireland it will be sensibly put in a halfway house in the midlands, and nobody will attend, even if it is the right location.

[Rossfan]

75% of the Congress voted for the Tier 2 so someone must want it Wob.

[thewobbler]

75% of the Congress voted for the Tier 2 so someone must want it Wob.

So about 50% of the affected counties then.

Hopefully I'm wrong. Genuinely I do.

[seafoid]

The current system went past its sell-by date. Public interest in the qualifiers was falling.
The GAA have learnt from previous iterations. They like money and a good B championship
will mean more income. If the GAA promote it properly the media will follow. There are options
to redesign down the road if necessary. The system should help teams develop which wasn't the case
with the current set up. There is still the question of what TF to do with Dublin but that is for another day.