HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?

[clonadmad]

Bottom line

The North of this island is an underperforming asset relative to the rest of the country

Partition turned the most successful part of Ireland into one of the poorest parts of Europe with billions needed every year from the English taxpayers to keep it even at that level

NI currently has a population 36% of the Republics

1.1920 2 counties Down and Antrim had 80% of the total economic output of the Island, today the total NI economic output is 8% of this islands output.

If NI was in any fit state economically, it would be contributing a third or more.

2.The Size of the Republics economy is €400bn odd, the size of NI's is £40bn odd

NI's economy should be treble what it is, £120bn odd

3.Exports

ROI total exports €160bn odd,2020 up 8% on 2019

NI total exports £7bn odd

the reality is that the increase in the Republic exports between 2019 and 2020 is greater than NI total exports tells its own story.

4.Cross Border Exports by value

34% NI exports to the Republic

1% ROI exports to NI

[Applesisapples]

We Northern Nationalists need to get beyond the "yous left us behind"narrative, there were very good reasons why the 26 Counties were powerless to do anything about the situation. It is worth remembering that southern voters will need to vote in favour of unity and that can't be taken as a given. Throwing insults is no way to persuade them.

Think you'll find the insults are a 2 way street

Granted but I prefer the higher moral ground. But there are a number of pro unity posters on here who disparage anyone with a different take.

[trueblue1234]

The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.

Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they've had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I'm more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won

There's a bizarre sort of stage Irishness with a minority of Northern nationalists - like you get with a lot of Irish Americans, or old time London Irish

A sort internal dissonance or insecurity - they feel they have to constantly prove their Irishness, but they try to fool themselves that that conscious, over the top performance makes them more Irish - it doesn't, and misunderstands what Irishness is

The DUP do this with Britishness as well

Eamonn Collins sort of lifted the lid on the internal contradictions felt by some northern nationalists when he stated that despite embracing the over the top caricature of performative "I'm more Irish than you"ness for many years, he actually felt much more at home when he was in Derby than in Dublin - the streetscape, the million little everyday things people did, England felt more "familiar" than Dublin, which felt more foreign

And certainly Glasgow seemed much more familiar and less foreign compared to Newry or Belfast than Dublin did

That insecurity might have come from decades of attempts to strip us of  our Irishness by multiple British Governments. I wouldn't expect you to understand or emphasis with that. It's beyond you.

I didn't criticise Northern nationalists who have an insecurity about their identity

I would think it is quite difficult not to have some

Interestingly, I have known Northern Protestants from a soft Unionist background who have told me they felt much more at home living in Dublin than they did in England, so it can work the other way too

I think something that is common to both Nationalists and Unionists is that some of them are hankering over a bygone idea of "pure" "Irishness" or "Britishness", almost a 1920s idea of either

Those things don't really exist any more, the world has moved on and so have Ireland and Britain, much as some people are angry about that

I have travelled extensively in Britain. I see similarities between Central Dublin and Central London, probably because the are Capitals. There is definitely a Celtic kindredness between the Scots and the Irish. I have always found English towns and cities on the whole to be foreign in spite of the similar signage. When I go to Donegal, Dundalk, Monaghan or Cavan I do not notice any particular difference. I guess because I grew up in a townland that inspite of the outside pressures from the state was centred on the chapel and the GAA. As with all countries you will get regional differences in language, food etc... I don't feel anymore Irish than the next man, I don't feel the need to wrap myself in the flag. There is a distinct lack of understanding in many in the Republic of the hurt and the journey of Northern Nationalists, as exemplified by Micheál Martin's Bon Joviesque contribution to CB live. He might as well have said some of my best friends are Nordies. There is also a distinct lack of knowledge up here of citizens from the South. We could perhaps listen and explain more on this thread rather than spout insults?

I think both statements are accurate.There's definitely a mutual lack of trust between Nationalists north and south.
We, in the republic, cannot understand why the cross-community aggro is still very much in evidence. One could say, "They finally got parity of esteem and all that goes with it and they still aren't satisfied."

The fact is that the Civil War, immediately after the Treaty, split the Free State in two. Families and friends were split and the bitterness lasted down the generations.
They were too busy fighting each other than to think of helping anybody.
Then, to cap it all, De Valera started an economic war with England when FF came to power. He reneged on loan repayments and the Brits blocked the import of agricultural produce from the state. This lasted from 1932 to 1938 and  the Free State economy was smashed. Almost immediately afterwards, WW11 came along and added to the general destitution. The south hadn't a pot to piss in, never mind going to anyone else's aid.
There is also a small cabal of loudmouths on the northern side who go out of their way to disparage the south. There are a few of them on here. They despise everything down south but are still the most vociferous supporters of unity. While I think most down here just ignore them, the idea of having to listen to them if and when we have a UI, is off putting, to say the least.

I have seen that a few times at GAA games where there is a bit of an argument going on about something that has happened on the field and the old "free state bastards" line comes out and you sold us out etc. I must say its a tiny tiny minority but it goes to show the bitterness of some.

There is always a vocal minority in all walks off life. For every free state b******d comment there will be a similar "British b*******d" comment from some bitter minority from the south. Decisions should not be based on these people and too often people using these types of comments as a defence for making a certain decision, are doing so only to cover up their real reason for making such decision.

[Angelo]

We Northern Nationalists need to get beyond the "yous left us behind"narrative, there were very good reasons why the 26 Counties were powerless to do anything about the situation. It is worth remembering that southern voters will need to vote in favour of unity and that can't be taken as a given. Throwing insults is no way to persuade them.

What good reasons were there?

A "not my problem" attitude. The Free State has absolutely no position to moralise on what happened in The Troubles when they were happy enough to stand idly by and let nationalists be terrorised in a sectarian state.

When you have families who have lost and suffered at the hands of the British state and calls for restorative justice are handled with a "but the IRA" response then I think it shows the absolute contempt the Free State establishment has for northern nationalists.

[Rossfan]

Spot on Apples.
All the voters in the Referenda(dums?) will have been born long after 1921 and many will have been born after 1994.
The past is the past, what happened happened and moaning to people who weren't born then is pointless and reinforces stereotypes.
As business and commercial interests are coming together perhaps its time for "civic nationalism" to start a Citizens Assembly type forum of some sort open to all shades across Ireland ?
Leave the politicians, especially the 17th Century ones behind.

[Milltown Row2]

Bottom line

The North of this island is an underperforming asset relative to the rest of the country

Partition turned the most successful part of Ireland into one of the poorest parts of Europe with billions needed every year from the English taxpayers to keep it even at that level

NI currently has a population 36% of the Republics

1.1920 2 counties Down and Antrim had 80% of the total economic output of the Island, today the total NI economic output is 8% of this islands output.

If NI was in any fit state economically, it would be contributing a third or more.

2.The Size of the Republics economy is €400bn odd, the size of NI's is £40bn odd

NI's economy should be treble what it is, £120bn odd

3.Exports

ROI total exports €160bn odd,2020 up 8% on 2019

NI total exports £7bn odd

the reality is that the increase in the Republic exports between 2019 and 2020 is greater than NI total exports tells its own story.

4.Cross Border Exports by value

34% NI exports to the Republic

1% ROI exports to NI

So what's your point?

[Franko]

Spot on Apples.
All the voters in the Referenda(dums?) will have been born long after 1921 and many will have been born after 1994.
The past is the past, what happened happened and moaning to people who weren't born then is pointless and reinforces stereotypes.
As business and commercial interests are coming together perhaps its time for "civic nationalism" to start a Citizens Assembly type forum of some sort open to all shades across Ireland ?
Leave the politicians, especially the 17th Century ones behind.

Dear me.  Maybe the least self-aware statement I've ever seen on this board.

[bennydorano]

Have contributed to these types of threads on here for near 20 years, the only thing that's changed is that the Northerners & Southerners are getting further apart and more nasty to each other. I've long reconciled myself to the fact that a UI is a pipe dream, if Scotland goes then maybe there's a chance, if not , no chance imo.

[yellowcard]

I think that this has the potential to be the longest ever thread on this board.

[yellowcard]

Have contributed to these types of threads on here for near 20 years, the only thing that's changed is that the Northerners & Southerners are getting further apart and more nasty to each other. I've long reconciled myself to the fact that a UI is a pipe dream, if Scotland goes then maybe there's a chance, if not , no chance imo.

I wouldn't conflate a few cranks on an online thread or on Twitter who have their own personal agendas and vendettas, with the general public mood. A younger generation coming through now generally do not hold that same level of bitterness and prejudice in my experience.     

[clonadmad]

Bottom line

The North of this island is an underperforming asset relative to the rest of the country

Partition turned the most successful part of Ireland into one of the poorest parts of Europe with billions needed every year from the English taxpayers to keep it even at that level

NI currently has a population 36% of the Republics

1.1920 2 counties Down and Antrim had 80% of the total economic output of the Island, today the total NI economic output is 8% of this islands output.

If NI was in any fit state economically, it would be contributing a third or more.

2.The Size of the Republics economy is €400bn odd, the size of NI's is £40bn odd

NI's economy should be treble what it is, £120bn odd

3.Exports

ROI total exports €160bn odd,2020 up 8% on 2019

NI total exports £7bn odd

the reality is that the increase in the Republic exports between 2019 and 2020 is greater than NI total exports tells its own story.

4.Cross Border Exports by value

34% NI exports to the Republic

1% ROI exports to NI

So what's your point?

Are you that economically illiterate

The NI economy with all its billions in subventions from the English taxpayer is underperforming the Republic by a minimum of 2/3rds by some metrics and up to 90% in others

The billions that have spent on it by the UK taxpayer haven't shifted the arrow upwards on any graph,actually it appears that the opposite is the case

Will it come to a point in 30/40 years time,where even the english will say this is too much of a drain on us,

you lot take it on

remember the subvention to NI is an awful lot more that the EU one and we all know what happened there

[clonadmad]

We Northern Nationalists need to get beyond the "yous left us behind"narrative, there were very good reasons why the 26 Counties were powerless to do anything about the situation. It is worth remembering that southern voters will need to vote in favour of unity and that can't be taken as a given. Throwing insults is no way to persuade them.

What good reasons were there?

A "not my problem" attitude. The Free State has absolutely no position to moralise on what happened in The Troubles when they were happy enough to stand idly by and let nationalists be terrorised in a sectarian state.

When you have families who have lost and suffered at the hands of the British state and calls for restorative justice are handled with a "but the IRA" response then I think it shows the absolute contempt the Free State establishment has for northern nationalists.

There was civil war in the south over the partition of this island 

I know you have conveniently forgotten that detail

It doesn't suit your narrative of they left us behind

[sid waddell]

The oath of allegiance was the primary reason for the Civil War

That it wasn't a Republic

Partition was barely a reason at all, if even that

[Milltown Row2]

Bottom line

The North of this island is an underperforming asset relative to the rest of the country

Partition turned the most successful part of Ireland into one of the poorest parts of Europe with billions needed every year from the English taxpayers to keep it even at that level

NI currently has a population 36% of the Republics

1.1920 2 counties Down and Antrim had 80% of the total economic output of the Island, today the total NI economic output is 8% of this islands output.

If NI was in any fit state economically, it would be contributing a third or more.

2.The Size of the Republics economy is €400bn odd, the size of NI's is £40bn odd

NI's economy should be treble what it is, £120bn odd

3.Exports

ROI total exports €160bn odd,2020 up 8% on 2019

NI total exports £7bn odd

the reality is that the increase in the Republic exports between 2019 and 2020 is greater than NI total exports tells its own story.

4.Cross Border Exports by value

34% NI exports to the Republic

1% ROI exports to NI

So what's your point?

Are you that economically illiterate

The NI economy with all its billions in subventions from the English taxpayer is underperforming the Republic by a minimum of 2/3rds by some metrics and up to 90% in others

The billions that have spent on it by the UK taxpayer haven't shifted the arrow upwards on any graph,actually it appears that the opposite is the case

Will it come to a point in 30/40 years time,where even the english will say this is too much of a drain on us,

you lot take it on

remember the subvention to NI is an awful lot more that the EU one and we all know what happened there

We don't know is the simple answer, looking back in the not so distant past Ireland was nearly bankrupt and now its bounced back, go back even further and there wasn't a road that didn't have a hole on it or didnt take you through every village on the way to Dublin.

You are going into the future with a blind idea of how it will pan out.

Northern Ireland is not a country its a state that's been run into the ground after over 30 years of troubles, were building were raised to the ground and business couldn't open without having to pay for the 'protection' from their local hoods.

Within that period industries closed like Mackies Harlands, and other major engineering firms, a small place like here can't and won't be able to sustain itself with the drop off in industry.

I'm sure there is enough of a skilled work force to get it up and going again. Local politics has a lot to answer to, but sure we'll keep voting them in and get the same results.

Your post is something we all know. So what's your real point? That the South would be mad to take back the north, that it would be better to stay as a republic and not unify the island? 

[Lar Naparka]

The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.

Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they've had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I'm more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won

There's a bizarre sort of stage Irishness with a minority of Northern nationalists - like you get with a lot of Irish Americans, or old time London Irish

A sort internal dissonance or insecurity - they feel they have to constantly prove their Irishness, but they try to fool themselves that that conscious, over the top performance makes them more Irish - it doesn't, and misunderstands what Irishness is

The DUP do this with Britishness as well

Eamonn Collins sort of lifted the lid on the internal contradictions felt by some northern nationalists when he stated that despite embracing the over the top caricature of performative "I'm more Irish than you"ness for many years, he actually felt much more at home when he was in Derby than in Dublin - the streetscape, the million little everyday things people did, England felt more "familiar" than Dublin, which felt more foreign

And certainly Glasgow seemed much more familiar and less foreign compared to Newry or Belfast than Dublin did

That insecurity might have come from decades of attempts to strip us of  our Irishness by multiple British Governments. I wouldn't expect you to understand or emphasis with that. It's beyond you.

I didn't criticise Northern nationalists who have an insecurity about their identity

I would think it is quite difficult not to have some

Interestingly, I have known Northern Protestants from a soft Unionist background who have told me they felt much more at home living in Dublin than they did in England, so it can work the other way too

I think something that is common to both Nationalists and Unionists is that some of them are hankering over a bygone idea of "pure" "Irishness" or "Britishness", almost a 1920s idea of either

Those things don't really exist any more, the world has moved on and so have Ireland and Britain, much as some people are angry about that

I have travelled extensively in Britain. I see similarities between Central Dublin and Central London, probably because the are Capitals. There is definitely a Celtic kindredness between the Scots and the Irish. I have always found English towns and cities on the whole to be foreign in spite of the similar signage. When I go to Donegal, Dundalk, Monaghan or Cavan I do not notice any particular difference. I guess because I grew up in a townland that inspite of the outside pressures from the state was centred on the chapel and the GAA. As with all countries you will get regional differences in language, food etc... I don't feel anymore Irish than the next man, I don't feel the need to wrap myself in the flag. There is a distinct lack of understanding in many in the Republic of the hurt and the journey of Northern Nationalists, as exemplified by Micheál Martin's Bon Joviesque contribution to CB live. He might as well have said some of my best friends are Nordies. There is also a distinct lack of knowledge up here of citizens from the South. We could perhaps listen and explain more on this thread rather than spout insults?

I think both statements are accurate.There's definitely a mutual lack of trust between Nationalists north and south.
We, in the republic, cannot understand why the cross-community aggro is still very much in evidence. One could say, "They finally got parity of esteem and all that goes with it and they still aren't satisfied."

The fact is that the Civil War, immediately after the Treaty, split the Free State in two. Families and friends were split and the bitterness lasted down the generations.
They were too busy fighting each other than to think of helping anybody.
Then, to cap it all, De Valera started an economic war with England when FF came to power. He reneged on loan repayments and the Brits blocked the import of agricultural produce from the state. This lasted from 1932 to 1938 and  the Free State economy was smashed. Almost immediately afterwards, WW11 came along and added to the general destitution. The south hadn't a pot to piss in, never mind going to anyone else's aid.
There is also a small cabal of loudmouths on the northern side who go out of their way to disparage the south. There are a few of them on here. They despise everything down south but are still the most vociferous supporters of unity. While I think most down here just ignore them, the idea of having to listen to them if and when we have a UI, is off putting, to say the least.

And why do you think that is?

100 years of turning a blind eye to the institutional sectarianism northern nationalists received in their daily lives.
Watching on as innocent catholics were shot and beaten off the streets, burned out of their homes by state forces.
Denied the right to vote, gain employment or have the same educational rights as the other side of the community.
Vilified and pontificated at nationalists who decided to take the fight up themselves while at the same time meekly tutting at the British state sponsored terrorism on its citizens.

That is the reason I feel the South is an insidious institution. For me unity is not about the north joining the south, it's about the end of two utterly rotten states who have completely failed the citizens of this island. It's consigning those failures to the bin and starting all over it. Now a lot of Free Staters, and I'm not referring directly to you here don't want to deal with the shame they should acknowledge on how northern nationalists were abandoned by their state and then vilified for standing up for their human rights and their community when the British State turned its forces on a defenceless people.

Decency, respect, humanity would have seen the Free State intervening meaningfully in The Troubles, instead it washed its hand off it to keep the status quo, to carry on the gravy train. Bar a handful of politicians like Neil Blaney through the years, the actions of FFG politicians has to be dismiss, insult and diminish northern nationalist as some sort of crazed sectarian extremists without ever examining their own failings.

Rather than Micheal Martin turning a request that he engage with families of The Troubles to get some restorative justice into a quite frankly disgusting political point scoring exercise, maybe he should address the failings of his parties and the other governments and their pathetic repsonse and treatment all through the years to northern nationalists.

I am genuinely surprised that you should ask that question. I think I have already spelled that out. Over 90% of the population took sides in the civil war- a greater number than got involved in any way in the Tan war that preceded it.
I was two generations removed from the civil war and the native village was still split down the middle. Even children from the pro- and ani- treaty factions weren't allowed to play with each other.
You had Taigs vs Prods but the opposing sides down here hated each other just as much. The Free State had a miniscule industrial base- cattle on the hoof and the few bob emigrants might send home was the only ways of getting money into the poorer rural parts. The Land War brought the economy to its knees.
Some households had wet and dry cell wireless, few could afford the luxury of buying newspapers and in any event, the news was heavily censored so the vast majority knew little about happenings in Northern Ireland.Even as late as 1969 when the Irish army pretended it was going to invade south Down, you wouldn't get the likes in the Keystone Kops. Most of the lorries broke down between the Curragh and Dundalk.
Clonad Mad already stated that the Irish economy was banjaxed in the period after partition. THe population of native county fell by a third due to emigration between partition and the arrival of Sean Lemass as Taoiseach in the 60s.
Don't see how anyone could expect a mob of half-starved civilians take on one of the world's superpowers.
All this won't answer one fundamental question; why do those who most hate the "Free State" demand unity as a matter of right?
Now, I don't intend to have a flame war with you or anyone else but I have to ask you a pertinent question.
You began by asking me something then proceeded to give the answer although I had gone into considerable lengths to deal with the issues you were raising.
So, genuinely, why bother asking me anything since you had no interest in what I already had stated?