HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?

[Rossfan]

Its probably been discussed earlier but is the huge budget deficit in the North going to be an issue?

Of course it will especially for the non emotionally motivated "middle ground" in the 6 who will decide the Referendum.
So the quicker the North starts to cash in on its unique post Brexit position and tries to improve itself the better

[Rossfan]

Some GAAboarders work in FIFA?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9395669/Official-FIFA-website-makes-bizarre-inclusion-Irish-Free-State-Northern-Irelands-group.html

[Angelo]

A lot of Northern stoops do try and go out of their way to prove they are "Ultra accommodating"

A handy check list is

Love pledging allegiance to the monarchy/taking seats in Westminster
Love wearing poppies / Hate Easter lilies
Love taking titles and sitting in the House of Lords
Love celebrating partition
Huge SDLP supporters - see no wrong support - cult like
Hate any Republicans who don't subscribe to their way of thinking
Want to ram project Northern Ireland down everyone's throats and have no time for relationship building with others of a different viewpoint

Yup.

That would be my general conclusion of your modern day Stoop.

Their main political representation is to be anti-SF more than anything else. A parody of a political party and Eastwood has to be just about the most embarrassing political figure in the O6 and that really is some achievement in itself.

[Applesisapples]

The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.

Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they've had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I'm more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won

There's a bizarre sort of stage Irishness with a minority of Northern nationalists - like you get with a lot of Irish Americans, or old time London Irish

A sort internal dissonance or insecurity - they feel they have to constantly prove their Irishness, but they try to fool themselves that that conscious, over the top performance makes them more Irish - it doesn't, and misunderstands what Irishness is

The DUP do this with Britishness as well

Eamonn Collins sort of lifted the lid on the internal contradictions felt by some northern nationalists when he stated that despite embracing the over the top caricature of performative "I'm more Irish than you"ness for many years, he actually felt much more at home when he was in Derby than in Dublin - the streetscape, the million little everyday things people did, England felt more "familiar" than Dublin, which felt more foreign

And certainly Glasgow seemed much more familiar and less foreign compared to Newry or Belfast than Dublin did

That insecurity might have come from decades of attempts to strip us of  our Irishness by multiple British Governments. I wouldn't expect you to understand or emphasis with that. It's beyond you.

I didn't criticise Northern nationalists who have an insecurity about their identity

I would think it is quite difficult not to have some

Interestingly, I have known Northern Protestants from a soft Unionist background who have told me they felt much more at home living in Dublin than they did in England, so it can work the other way too

I think something that is common to both Nationalists and Unionists is that some of them are hankering over a bygone idea of "pure" "Irishness" or "Britishness", almost a 1920s idea of either

Those things don't really exist any more, the world has moved on and so have Ireland and Britain, much as some people are angry about that

I have travelled extensively in Britain. I see similarities between Central Dublin and Central London, probably because the are Capitals. There is definitely a Celtic kindredness between the Scots and the Irish. I have always found English towns and cities on the whole to be foreign in spite of the similar signage. When I go to Donegal, Dundalk, Monaghan or Cavan I do not notice any particular difference. I guess because I grew up in a townland that inspite of the outside pressures from the state was centred on the chapel and the GAA. As with all countries you will get regional differences in language, food etc... I don't feel anymore Irish than the next man, I don't feel the need to wrap myself in the flag. There is a distinct lack of understanding in many in the Republic of the hurt and the journey of Northern Nationalists, as exemplified by Micheál Martin's Bon Joviesque contribution to CB live. He might as well have said some of my best friends are Nordies. There is also a distinct lack of knowledge up here of citizens from the South. We could perhaps listen and explain more on this thread rather than spout insults?

[yellowcard]

So none of the 7 northerners who would vote to stay under British rule are prepared to come forward to explain their thinking. I think there was either some dodgy voting going on or maybe they're just too afraid to admit it.

I don't know very many Catholics in the North but I know enough t feel that a sizeable rump would feel uncomfortable stepping into the unknown, giving the inevitable backlash that willl inevitably follow.
I'm thinking mainly of the Malone Road types; those who have a grand wee comfortable lifestyle and don't want to jeopardise it in any way. I'm not blaming, if that's the word, anyone on that particular road- it's just the social class they belong.
I wonder if the Nationalists on the board are being a bit too confident in assuming that demographics and a bit of patience is all that it will take to let everything slip into place.
For instance, could all pro-UI posters honestly claim that every (Catholic) voter they know will be 100% sure to vote for the end of partition?

I think most people are realistic enough to know that calling a border poll and winning it are 2 completely different realities. However I do think that when it is called that there would be a reasonable assumption that it will pass. And yes, there will be cushy catholic voters who may not want to give up what they see as some of their home comforts if it makes them economically worse off.  But that is where the work lies for civic nationalism in preparing ahead for the poll and bringing forward the benefits of a unified island in order to alleviate those fears. I'd be fairly sure that when it does happen that there will be a groundswell of public opinion both nationally and internationally behind the idea of reunification and I don't even think many in Britain will object to it, certainly at least privately.

Work around the gradual phasing out of UK subvention grants, maintenance of pension entitlements, international funding etc need to be ironed out. The British position regarding the north may have changed forever as a result of the outworkings of Brexit and with the opening debate from political parties in the south there is a whiff of change in the air. Even getting many Unionist politicians to the position that they are accepting of the fact that a border poll is fairly inevitable would have been unthinkable only 5 years ago.

At the minute, until we know how this new nation state will look, it is a futile exercise in second guessing how cushy catholics, foreign nationals and people in the middle will vote, but I'd be fairly sure that by the time it comes to pass that the work will have been done by that stage. Then it will largely boil down to basic economics and the biggest challenge will be for civic nationalism to try and win this argument.     

[Applesisapples]

So none of the 7 northerners who would vote to stay under British rule are prepared to come forward to explain their thinking. I think there was either some dodgy voting going on or maybe they're just too afraid to admit it.

I don't know very many Catholics in the North but I know enough t feel that a sizeable rump would feel uncomfortable stepping into the unknown, giving the inevitable backlash that willl inevitably follow.
I'm thinking mainly of the Malone Road types; those who have a grand wee comfortable lifestyle and don't want to jeopardise it in any way. I'm not blaming, if that's the word, anyone on that particular road- it's just the social class they belong.
I wonder if the Nationalists on the board are being a bit too confident in assuming that demographics and a bit of patience is all that it will take to let everything slip into place.
For instance, could all pro-UI posters honestly claim that every (Catholic) voter they know will be 100% sure to vote for the end of partition?

I am one of that sizeable rump, although not a Malone Road type. We are culturally Irish and broadly in favour of unity. But some reassurance is required and we would be easier persuaded than the middle ground. A lot of my nervousness centres around being in my 60's. Some on here pilloried me for this position but the concerns of this demographic can and should be assuaged.

[Lar Naparka]

The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.

Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they've had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I'm more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won

There's a bizarre sort of stage Irishness with a minority of Northern nationalists - like you get with a lot of Irish Americans, or old time London Irish

A sort internal dissonance or insecurity - they feel they have to constantly prove their Irishness, but they try to fool themselves that that conscious, over the top performance makes them more Irish - it doesn't, and misunderstands what Irishness is

The DUP do this with Britishness as well

Eamonn Collins sort of lifted the lid on the internal contradictions felt by some northern nationalists when he stated that despite embracing the over the top caricature of performative "I'm more Irish than you"ness for many years, he actually felt much more at home when he was in Derby than in Dublin - the streetscape, the million little everyday things people did, England felt more "familiar" than Dublin, which felt more foreign

And certainly Glasgow seemed much more familiar and less foreign compared to Newry or Belfast than Dublin did

That insecurity might have come from decades of attempts to strip us of  our Irishness by multiple British Governments. I wouldn't expect you to understand or emphasis with that. It's beyond you.

I didn't criticise Northern nationalists who have an insecurity about their identity

I would think it is quite difficult not to have some

Interestingly, I have known Northern Protestants from a soft Unionist background who have told me they felt much more at home living in Dublin than they did in England, so it can work the other way too

I think something that is common to both Nationalists and Unionists is that some of them are hankering over a bygone idea of "pure" "Irishness" or "Britishness", almost a 1920s idea of either

Those things don't really exist any more, the world has moved on and so have Ireland and Britain, much as some people are angry about that

I have travelled extensively in Britain. I see similarities between Central Dublin and Central London, probably because the are Capitals. There is definitely a Celtic kindredness between the Scots and the Irish. I have always found English towns and cities on the whole to be foreign in spite of the similar signage. When I go to Donegal, Dundalk, Monaghan or Cavan I do not notice any particular difference. I guess because I grew up in a townland that inspite of the outside pressures from the state was centred on the chapel and the GAA. As with all countries you will get regional differences in language, food etc... I don't feel anymore Irish than the next man, I don't feel the need to wrap myself in the flag. There is a distinct lack of understanding in many in the Republic of the hurt and the journey of Northern Nationalists, as exemplified by Micheál Martin's Bon Joviesque contribution to CB live. He might as well have said some of my best friends are Nordies. There is also a distinct lack of knowledge up here of citizens from the South. We could perhaps listen and explain more on this thread rather than spout insults?

I think both statements are accurate.There's definitely a mutual lack of trust between Nationalists north and south.
We, in the republic, cannot understand why the cross-community aggro is still very much in evidence. One could say, "They finally got parity of esteem and all that goes with it and they still aren't satisfied."

The fact is that the Civil War, immediately after the Treaty, split the Free State in two. Families and friends were split and the bitterness lasted down the generations.
They were too busy fighting each other than to think of helping anybody.
Then, to cap it all, De Valera started an economic war with England when FF came to power. He reneged on loan repayments and the Brits blocked the import of agricultural produce from the state. This lasted from 1932 to 1938 and  the Free State economy was smashed. Almost immediately afterwards, WW11 came along and added to the general destitution. The south hadn't a pot to piss in, never mind going to anyone else's aid.
There is also a small cabal of loudmouths on the northern side who go out of their way to disparage the south. There are a few of them on here. They despise everything down south but are still the most vociferous supporters of unity. While I think most down here just ignore them, the idea of having to listen to them if and when we have a UI, is off putting, to say the least.

[Cavan19]

The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.

Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they've had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I'm more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won

There's a bizarre sort of stage Irishness with a minority of Northern nationalists - like you get with a lot of Irish Americans, or old time London Irish

A sort internal dissonance or insecurity - they feel they have to constantly prove their Irishness, but they try to fool themselves that that conscious, over the top performance makes them more Irish - it doesn't, and misunderstands what Irishness is

The DUP do this with Britishness as well

Eamonn Collins sort of lifted the lid on the internal contradictions felt by some northern nationalists when he stated that despite embracing the over the top caricature of performative "I'm more Irish than you"ness for many years, he actually felt much more at home when he was in Derby than in Dublin - the streetscape, the million little everyday things people did, England felt more "familiar" than Dublin, which felt more foreign

And certainly Glasgow seemed much more familiar and less foreign compared to Newry or Belfast than Dublin did

That insecurity might have come from decades of attempts to strip us of  our Irishness by multiple British Governments. I wouldn't expect you to understand or emphasis with that. It's beyond you.

I didn't criticise Northern nationalists who have an insecurity about their identity

I would think it is quite difficult not to have some

Interestingly, I have known Northern Protestants from a soft Unionist background who have told me they felt much more at home living in Dublin than they did in England, so it can work the other way too

I think something that is common to both Nationalists and Unionists is that some of them are hankering over a bygone idea of "pure" "Irishness" or "Britishness", almost a 1920s idea of either

Those things don't really exist any more, the world has moved on and so have Ireland and Britain, much as some people are angry about that

I have travelled extensively in Britain. I see similarities between Central Dublin and Central London, probably because the are Capitals. There is definitely a Celtic kindredness between the Scots and the Irish. I have always found English towns and cities on the whole to be foreign in spite of the similar signage. When I go to Donegal, Dundalk, Monaghan or Cavan I do not notice any particular difference. I guess because I grew up in a townland that inspite of the outside pressures from the state was centred on the chapel and the GAA. As with all countries you will get regional differences in language, food etc... I don't feel anymore Irish than the next man, I don't feel the need to wrap myself in the flag. There is a distinct lack of understanding in many in the Republic of the hurt and the journey of Northern Nationalists, as exemplified by Micheál Martin's Bon Joviesque contribution to CB live. He might as well have said some of my best friends are Nordies. There is also a distinct lack of knowledge up here of citizens from the South. We could perhaps listen and explain more on this thread rather than spout insults?

I think both statements are accurate.There's definitely a mutual lack of trust between Nationalists north and south.
We, in the republic, cannot understand why the cross-community aggro is still very much in evidence. One could say, "They finally got parity of esteem and all that goes with it and they still aren't satisfied."

The fact is that the Civil War, immediately after the Treaty, split the Free State in two. Families and friends were split and the bitterness lasted down the generations.
They were too busy fighting each other than to think of helping anybody.
Then, to cap it all, De Valera started an economic war with England when FF came to power. He reneged on loan repayments and the Brits blocked the import of agricultural produce from the state. This lasted from 1932 to 1938 and  the Free State economy was smashed. Almost immediately afterwards, WW11 came along and added to the general destitution. The south hadn't a pot to piss in, never mind going to anyone else's aid.
There is also a small cabal of loudmouths on the northern side who go out of their way to disparage the south. There are a few of them on here. They despise everything down south but are still the most vociferous supporters of unity. While I think most down here just ignore them, the idea of having to listen to them if and when we have a UI, is off putting, to say the least.

I have seen that a few times at GAA games where there is a bit of an argument going on about something that has happened on the field and the old "free state bastards" line comes out and you sold us out etc. I must say its a tiny tiny minority but it goes to show the bitterness of some.

[Angelo]

The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.

Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they've had to fight for their identity.

Nordie in I'm more Irish than you shocker

only difference is we fought for our identity and won

There's a bizarre sort of stage Irishness with a minority of Northern nationalists - like you get with a lot of Irish Americans, or old time London Irish

A sort internal dissonance or insecurity - they feel they have to constantly prove their Irishness, but they try to fool themselves that that conscious, over the top performance makes them more Irish - it doesn't, and misunderstands what Irishness is

The DUP do this with Britishness as well

Eamonn Collins sort of lifted the lid on the internal contradictions felt by some northern nationalists when he stated that despite embracing the over the top caricature of performative "I'm more Irish than you"ness for many years, he actually felt much more at home when he was in Derby than in Dublin - the streetscape, the million little everyday things people did, England felt more "familiar" than Dublin, which felt more foreign

And certainly Glasgow seemed much more familiar and less foreign compared to Newry or Belfast than Dublin did

That insecurity might have come from decades of attempts to strip us of  our Irishness by multiple British Governments. I wouldn't expect you to understand or emphasis with that. It's beyond you.

I didn't criticise Northern nationalists who have an insecurity about their identity

I would think it is quite difficult not to have some

Interestingly, I have known Northern Protestants from a soft Unionist background who have told me they felt much more at home living in Dublin than they did in England, so it can work the other way too

I think something that is common to both Nationalists and Unionists is that some of them are hankering over a bygone idea of "pure" "Irishness" or "Britishness", almost a 1920s idea of either

Those things don't really exist any more, the world has moved on and so have Ireland and Britain, much as some people are angry about that

I have travelled extensively in Britain. I see similarities between Central Dublin and Central London, probably because the are Capitals. There is definitely a Celtic kindredness between the Scots and the Irish. I have always found English towns and cities on the whole to be foreign in spite of the similar signage. When I go to Donegal, Dundalk, Monaghan or Cavan I do not notice any particular difference. I guess because I grew up in a townland that inspite of the outside pressures from the state was centred on the chapel and the GAA. As with all countries you will get regional differences in language, food etc... I don't feel anymore Irish than the next man, I don't feel the need to wrap myself in the flag. There is a distinct lack of understanding in many in the Republic of the hurt and the journey of Northern Nationalists, as exemplified by Micheál Martin's Bon Joviesque contribution to CB live. He might as well have said some of my best friends are Nordies. There is also a distinct lack of knowledge up here of citizens from the South. We could perhaps listen and explain more on this thread rather than spout insults?

I think both statements are accurate.There's definitely a mutual lack of trust between Nationalists north and south.
We, in the republic, cannot understand why the cross-community aggro is still very much in evidence. One could say, "They finally got parity of esteem and all that goes with it and they still aren't satisfied."

The fact is that the Civil War, immediately after the Treaty, split the Free State in two. Families and friends were split and the bitterness lasted down the generations.
They were too busy fighting each other than to think of helping anybody.
Then, to cap it all, De Valera started an economic war with England when FF came to power. He reneged on loan repayments and the Brits blocked the import of agricultural produce from the state. This lasted from 1932 to 1938 and  the Free State economy was smashed. Almost immediately afterwards, WW11 came along and added to the general destitution. The south hadn't a pot to piss in, never mind going to anyone else's aid.
There is also a small cabal of loudmouths on the northern side who go out of their way to disparage the south. There are a few of them on here. They despise everything down south but are still the most vociferous supporters of unity. While I think most down here just ignore them, the idea of having to listen to them if and when we have a UI, is off putting, to say the least.

And why do you think that is?

100 years of turning a blind eye to the institutional sectarianism northern nationalists received in their daily lives.
Watching on as innocent catholics were shot and beaten off the streets, burned out of their homes by state forces.
Denied the right to vote, gain employment or have the same educational rights as the other side of the community.
Vilified and pontificated at nationalists who decided to take the fight up themselves while at the same time meekly tutting at the British state sponsored terrorism on its citizens.

That is the reason I feel the South is an insidious institution. For me unity is not about the north joining the south, it's about the end of two utterly rotten states who have completely failed the citizens of this island. It's consigning those failures to the bin and starting all over it. Now a lot of Free Staters, and I'm not referring directly to you here don't want to deal with the shame they should acknowledge on how northern nationalists were abandoned by their state and then vilified for standing up for their human rights and their community when the British State turned its forces on a defenceless people.

Decency, respect, humanity would have seen the Free State intervening meaningfully in The Troubles, instead it washed its hand off it to keep the status quo, to carry on the gravy train. Bar a handful of politicians like Neil Blaney through the years, the actions of FFG politicians has to be dismiss, insult and diminish northern nationalist as some sort of crazed sectarian extremists without ever examining their own failings.

Rather than Micheal Martin turning a request that he engage with families of The Troubles to get some restorative justice into a quite frankly disgusting political point scoring exercise, maybe he should address the failings of his parties and the other governments and their pathetic repsonse and treatment all through the years to northern nationalists.

[Substandard]

I think one of the most disheartening and frustrating aspects of the lockdowns and vaccine rollout is the wavering and uncertainty, with the narrative shifting daily or weekly.  If people thought there was a definitive direction, then people would be more likely to be on board and engage with the processes.
The same would apply in the case of reunification.  Reading here the last week or so reminds me of a section in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy- the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything was 42, but the problem was no-one could define the question.  There are so many strands that it is natural that people would focus on specific ones either closest to their hearts or their economic circumstances, and idle speculation or hearsay would do little to dispel doubts or not fuel anxieties about other strands.  There would need to be some form of forum whereby people could submit their views across a range of local, community and national issues, and then this data to be analysed to suggest directions.  This process would need to run concurrently with cross-party talks at a political level, again from local to regional to national scale.  It would take a lot of time, and again it would take time to digest the findings, but there is such diversity, even from the comments here in the last while, to encapsulate all views would be a pretty herculean task.
How do you eat an elephant?  One bite at at time, and it would be the same here- a lot of small steps to get things in motion, but even before these could happen, there needs to be a framework which could point the way, and ultimately see a timeline evolve.  The old Gaelic chieftains' complaint that the Normans were becoming more Irish than the Irish themselves (or was it the other way round with the Normans complaining, I can't remember) shows a difficulty in defining being Irish, and the who or what is an Irishman argument sidetracks the debate when identity is so crucial to different groupings and backgrounds.
There needs to be options put before people, with possibilities and alternatives, and when people can see these options, they can start thinking about what the end product would look like.
The entire concept just can't be reduced to a yes or a no.
Otherwise, the answer is 42.

[naka]

So none of the 7 northerners who would vote to stay under British rule are prepared to come forward to explain their thinking. I think there was either some dodgy voting going on or maybe they're just too afraid to admit it.

I don't know very many Catholics in the North but I know enough t feel that a sizeable rump would feel uncomfortable stepping into the unknown, giving the inevitable backlash that willl inevitably follow.
I'm thinking mainly of the Malone Road types; those who have a grand wee comfortable lifestyle and don't want to jeopardise it in any way. I'm not blaming, if that's the word, anyone on that particular road- it's just the social class they belong.
I wonder if the Nationalists on the board are being a bit too confident in assuming that demographics and a bit of patience is all that it will take to let everything slip into place.
For instance, could all pro-UI posters honestly claim that every (Catholic) voter they know will be 100% sure to vote for the end of partition?

I am one of that sizeable rump, although not a Malone Road type. We are culturally Irish and broadly in favour of unity. But some reassurance is required and we would be easier persuaded than the middle ground. A lot of my nervousness centres around being in my 60's. Some on here pilloried me for this position but the concerns of this demographic can and should be assuaged.

to be fair apples
a fair few of the guys who vote sinn fein and claim their benefits need to be persuaded also, the privacy of teh vote might make people be a little more hesitant when the bit comes to teh bit.
i am in my 50s  but my two kids are definitely not sure fire votes for unity. the eldest is content that she is recognised as irish but would need to be persuaded to vote yes, whilst teh youngest would be fire and brimstone, lets get it done.
what i am saying is that its not a given that the youth will automatically vote yes either.

[Rossfan]

Ye do realise there are social welfare benefits in the 26 Cos?
Ye do realise that the UK benefits are among  the lowest in Europe?

[general_lee]

Ye do realise there are social welfare benefits in the 26 Cos?
Ye do realise that the UK benefits are among  the lowest in Europe?

Was just about to say this. Surely the ones on benefits need the least convincing...

[Applesisapples]

We Northern Nationalists need to get beyond the "yous left us behind"narrative, there were very good reasons why the 26 Counties were powerless to do anything about the situation. It is worth remembering that southern voters will need to vote in favour of unity and that can't be taken as a given. Throwing insults is no way to persuade them.

[Milltown Row2]

We Northern Nationalists need to get beyond the "yous left us behind"narrative, there were very good reasons why the 26 Counties were powerless to do anything about the situation. It is worth remembering that southern voters will need to vote in favour of unity and that can't be taken as a given. Throwing insults is no way to persuade them.

Think you'll find the insults are a 2 way street