HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?

[APM]

I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html

I'm not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.

Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.

I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.

What good is being part of the 6th biggest economy if you contribute nothing to it? Why, almost 25 years post GFA is NI still one of the worst-off regions in the UK? What exactly is the benefit of being part of this "6th biggest economy"?

In reality the UK economy is centred around London and the south east of England - where fiscal decisions are made which benefit the people who live and work there the most. That's why (as already mentioned) Unionists are expendable and have and will continue to be used by the tories as and when they feel like it. And of course the DUP like good little bootlickers will go back asking for more.

Support to workers and business during recent pandemic and development and roll-out of vaccine spring to mind.

If anything the support to workers and businesses in the south was at least as generous as in the UK if not more.  Irish businesses received a wage subsidy if they could demonstrate that their turnover was substantially reduced and it was paid for the entire workforce, not just in the case of furloughed workers.  Like furlough, it was a blunt instrument, but it supported companies that traded through the pandemic at serious increased cost, unlike the furlough scheme which only supported workers that were sent / had to stay at home.  Business support in NI was in the form of Covid loans, which had to be repaid.  This wasn't the case with the wage subsidy which was a generous subsidy to businesses to keep their workers on the books. 

Ask ExcludedNI about the support for NI businesses. 
https://twitter.com/excludedni?lang=en

[Milltown Row2]

Jesus!! My dick is bigger than your dick posts!

Wise up

[ardtole]

The change in stance by the hierarchy in the south even in the last few weeks is telling. Is there something going on in the background or is it a response to the threat of SF in the 26?

When the likes of Jim O Callaghan is drawing up reunification proposals and a ff cork td looking for a new ministerial post for reunifucation, something must be stirring

[pbat]

I'd say Jim's push on Martin isnt far off.

[ardtole]

Too late for Jim. Miceal will see his 2 years out and ff will be looking at signifigant seat losses at the next election.

[armaghniac]

Does Michael realise other Countries also supported workers and businesses.

Of course.  Simply stating that level of support from UK government was good.

Not especially good. When things were bad in the North-West in the autumn there was a stat that a business in Strabane that was closed was getting one third as much as in a business in Letterkenny.

[APM]

Jesus!! My dick is bigger than your dick posts!

Wise up

Are you talking about what I posted? 

Definitely not written in that spirit.  I'd be the first to acknowledge that many elements of Irish economy / social policy are not good - inflation, housing, health etc.  There are valid criticisms of corporate taxation / FDI policy.  The only point I was trying to make was that the Irish government has been very nimble about using state aid to support businesses and it is a seriously business friendly set up. There would be many businesses in NI that would have given their right arm for the wage subsidy available in the south as there was nothing available to them up here. It was an incredibly generous scheme. 

The broader debate is all swings and roundabouts when looked at in terms of current policies and economics.  The big question is what is the vision for the future and all of that seems to be stacked in favour of nationalists. 

As has been the case throughout Brexit, the DUP's position, continues to put NI's place in the union at risk.  Ironically, the full and successful implementation of the protocol is more likely to result in NI remaining part of the UK, since it will mean that NI businesses will have more to lose when leaving the UK - unfettered access to GB market and the foot in both camps giving strong potential for inward investment of goods manufacturers.  The fact that the protocol doesn't cover services weakens this argument.  However, businesses will not want to lose the "best of both worlds" benefit.  Many may be vociferous in highlighting the challenges given to them by the protocol, but if it was removed entirely there would be serious regret. 

Again, ironically, failure to implement the protocol properly is now a driver for a UI in my view.  Both the EU and Ireland are depending on the UK to apply the protocol (or mind the backdoor), and if they cannot be trusted to implement it properly, then what are the long term consequences for the integrity of the Single Market and Ireland's place in that market. I do not think that the DUP realise just how fundamental this issue is.   It was interesting that Varadkar mentioned Joint Authority last night.  It would be interesting to look at that through the lens of government who desperately need the protocol to work and are watching politicians setting fire to it, with even district councils being allowed to undermine an international treaty.  A UI or joint authority would give the Irish government / EU proper control over the backdoor and that will be a key factor behind the scenes as long as the EU lasts.

[APM]

The change in stance by the hierarchy in the south even in the last few weeks is telling. Is there something going on in the background or is it a response to the threat of SF in the 26?

When the likes of Jim O Callaghan is drawing up reunification proposals and a ff cork td looking for a new ministerial post for reunifucation, something must be stirring

See my post above - last paragraph

[GiveItToTheShooters]

The 6 counties are always going to be treated differently because of the polarisation. Currently they are neither fully Irish nor fully British but something in between.
In a United Ireland that would not change.
It will be heartbreaking  for Northern Shinners to live in a country that is not a romantic republic straight out of the Wolfe Tones.

Free stater mindset clear for all to see again. People in the 6 counties are as Irish as you, if not more, as they've had to fight for their identity.

[Milltown Row2]

Jesus!! My dick is bigger than your dick posts!

Wise up

Are you talking about what I posted? 

Definitely not written in that spirit.  I'd be the first to acknowledge that many elements of Irish economy / social policy are not good - inflation, housing, health etc.  There are valid criticisms of corporate taxation / FDI policy.  The only point I was trying to make was that the Irish government has been very nimble about using state aid to support businesses and it is a seriously business friendly set up. There would be many businesses in NI that would have given their right arm for the wage subsidy available in the south as there was nothing available to them up here. It was an incredibly generous scheme. 

The broader debate is all swings and roundabouts when looked at in terms of current policies and economics.  The big question is what is the vision for the future and all of that seems to be stacked in favour of nationalists. 

As has been the case throughout Brexit, the DUP's position, continues to put NI's place in the union at risk.  Ironically, the full and successful implementation of the protocol is more likely to result in NI remaining part of the UK, since it will mean that NI businesses will have more to lose when leaving the UK - unfettered access to GB market and the foot in both camps giving strong potential for inward investment of goods manufacturers.  The fact that the protocol doesn't cover services weakens this argument.  However, businesses will not want to lose the "best of both worlds" benefit.  Many may be vociferous in highlighting the challenges given to them by the protocol, but if it was removed entirely there would be serious regret. 

Again, ironically, failure to implement the protocol properly is now a driver for a UI in my view.  Both the EU and Ireland are depending on the UK to apply the protocol (or mind the backdoor), and if they cannot be trusted to implement it properly, then what are the long term consequences for the integrity of the Single Market and Ireland's place in that market. I do not think that the DUP realise just how fundamental this issue is.   It was interesting that Varadkar mentioned Joint Authority last night.  It would be interesting to look at that through the lens of government who desperately need the protocol to work and are watching politicians setting fire to it, with even district councils being allowed to undermine an international treaty.  A UI or joint authority would give the Irish government / EU proper control over the backdoor and that will be a key factor behind the scenes as long as the EU lasts.

The previous posts were debating who was better at this and that who was shit at this and that.

For me personally it's a no brainier there will be economic upheaval but that's expected, I'm lucky that I'm in a global company and my wife is a teacher, her pension will no doubt be covered by whatever financial settlements would be agreed. I've a family across the divide here, but there won't be any arguments, they'll vote as they see fit, and her family will accept the outcome about from the poll results and move on.

I just can't see being done this decade if I'm being honest, get it done after some great background media and social media attention. If SF are the main drivers in this then we are starting off on the wrong foot.

There has to be a remain group and leave group, both arguments need to be heard without the the distraction of these political parties. Will just drive division

[ardtole]

The change in stance by the hierarchy in the south even in the last few weeks is telling. Is there something going on in the background or is it a response to the threat of SF in the 26?

When the likes of Jim O Callaghan is drawing up reunification proposals and a ff cork td looking for a new ministerial post for reunifucation, something must be stirring

See my post above - last paragraph

Yeah APM, that makes sense. For the likes of Jim OCallaghan to publish a proposal for a united ireland really got me thinking, what was fuelling this sudden change of direction  or opinion? 

I didnt think it was the rise of sf in the 26 because its not a signifigant factor in elections down here, so it had to be an external influence, either europe or the uk maybe some backing from usa.

Whatever has happened in the background there has been a signifigant change in approach in a short period of time. Have Rte ever done a program on reunification before?

[JPGJOHNNYG]

If joint authority wasn't an option 23 years ago for the good Friday agreement then it most certainly should not be an option to hold off a UI for another generation

[Rossfan]

Jim's UI proposals
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/republic-could-reject-a-united-ireland-ocallaghan-warns-40232474.html

[seafoid]

The change in stance by the hierarchy in the south even in the last few weeks is telling. Is there something going on in the background or is it a response to the threat of SF in the 26?

When the likes of Jim O Callaghan is drawing up reunification proposals and a ff cork td looking for a new ministerial post for reunifucation, something must be stirring

See my post above - last paragraph

Yeah APM, that makes sense. For the likes of Jim OCallaghan to publish a proposal for a united ireland really got me thinking, what was fuelling this sudden change of direction  or opinion? 

I didnt think it was the rise of sf in the 26 because its not a signifigant factor in elections down here, so it had to be an external influence, either europe or the uk maybe some backing from usa.

Whatever has happened in the background there has been a signifigant change in approach in a short period of time. Have Rte ever done a program on reunification before?

Brexit has changed the dynamic. Boris Johnson threw the DUP under the bus. The sea border has unsettled Unionists who worry about London casting NI adrift.
Unionism has no leverage after the DUP's solo run.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RMcCrory95/status/1349408946818330630

[Rossfan]

Meanwhile.....
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/new-dublin-belfast-economic-corridor-aims-to-tackle-challenges-imposed-by-brexit-the-pandemic-and-climate-change-40233411.html