HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?

[Applesisapples]

SF produce their paper and challenge the rest to follow suit.
I never said ignore 50%+1, I was making the point us folks "down here" have to vote too.
Mind you I'd be happier with 55 or 60%.
As I said before the duty of the Government Parties in the "South" is to govern the State.
The Supreme Court decided many years ago (McGimpsey case) that the Government was under no obligation to work fir a UI under the old Articles 2 and 3 of Bunreacht na hÉireann.
Those articles are now (rightly) watered down so there's no imperative.

Edit - very sensible post by Apples.

Imperatives wouldn't work, I sense that most of those I know south of the border would accept an orderly transition to a UI that held out the hope of prosperity for all.

[Lar Naparka]

Any people look to have a United Ireland poll that will offer them some new Ireland?

May lock this thread and come back in 50 years and see if there anything doing cause it not happening anytime soon.

People are not asking for a poll to happen tomorrow. They are looking for the planning for a poll to start today. You can rest assured though, with the demographic and political trends going the way they are, there will be a poll before 50 years are up.

On the planning, you will need all communities represented and engaged for the planning. If it's a nationalist plan, it will never be accepted. Or if it's one sided it only representing that one side regardless of their intentions.

There is no chance you can even start the planning in current political climate and is that going to change in a generation even?

Of course you can start the planning. Those who always say we can't talk about a border poll because there is no plan are almost always the first to shoot down any talk of planning. Funny that.

If you're waiting on unionism to engage in discussion about reunification, then you'll wait from now until the end of time. What CAN be done now, is to have any and all stakeholders who are willing to discuss it, draw up the plan and present it to unionism in the hope some will consider it. Most wont and that's fair enough. They are unionists. It's the middle ground who will decide a future poll and they will only be won over by a plan that they feel is inclusive of unionism.

The bottom line is that demographics alone demonstrate that a border poll will happen in the relatively near future. Do you suggest going into it without a plan? I wouldn't.

I agree with 100% you. But SF is the only party campaigning for a referendum and, therefore
is the only party that needs to present their roadmap.

SF's greater push is not for a referendum, but for planning to start for when a referendum is called. Which will carry more weight in swaying the middle ground in the north: a SF plan for a united Ireland, or an cross-party plan for a United Ireland? A plan written by SF alone would be disregarded by the middle ground and used for political bickering by other parties. It would be a total waste of time and effort and would run contrary to what the aim of a plan would be: an template agreed by all who want to see unification happen.

As I keep repeating, we now have the beginnings of an economic united Ireland. That will undoubtedly lead to closer political alignment, and then you look at the rapidly changing demographic situation, then you can be sure a poll will happen in the relatively near future. The Irish government is abdicating it's responsibility by not being prepared.

IT seems to me that they are clearly calling for a referendum asap. I can't recall them inviting any other party to enter into discussions with them- on anything really. I don't expect any other party to produce a roadmap to anywhere if they have no interest in a referendum.
THe jibes that any Irish person is a West Brit if they won't vote for UI is ludicrous, stuff ypu'd get on a school playground.
It's like asking people to buy a pig in a poke. I mean who' commit himself to anything if he doesn't know what he is voting for?

[Angelo]

I cannot believe that there are so called Irish people on a GAA forum who are against Irish Unity. Hang your heads in shame. I get that there are loads of issues to sort out, no one is claiming it will be a straightforward process. But to actively be against unity is frankly disgusting.

Lets win them over rather than berate them.

They don't want to be won over but I think this board is very backward. Most of the Free Staters here seem to be died in the wool FFG supporters. FF are dust, Micheal Martin has finished them while FG are never going to be much more than a 25% first preference party, they are the Irish Tories and are toxic to anyone with a bit of humanity and sense of fairness. So this board is not really representative. Young people in the 26 have been failed by FFG policies which is why this demograph will not countenance voting for them. The momentum is building for a United Ireland and the desperate voices of opposition will not be enough to stop it.

We don't need to convince them, it's going to happen whether they like it or not. SF will be in power soon south of the border and they will be in a position to make this happen probably sometime in the next 10 years.

Then forget about a UI for another generation. It's not a god given right either BTW.

Loyalists/Unionists by the fact that its their MO won't want a UI but they're in a minority in NI now so if those of us that want a UI don't win over these people by listening, understand and addressing their fears then we won't get one.

It's that simple.

Why?

You don't need to win FFG voters over primarily. I think the vote will pass fairly comfortably down south, the changing demographics will prove that.

Addressing loyalist fears is fine but this is not genuine when it comes to FFG and the Free State mainstream media. They are not for changing, they are entrenched and do not want it to happen. They are merely using Unionist fears as a bogeyman, the real reason is a United Ireland dilutes the grip they have the Irish establishment. The last thing they want to countenance is reform of their state and losing control. We've seen how insidious it is recently with them when it comes to judicial appointment.

I don't think the free staters on here on a general level are reflective of the free state itself, the demographics are changing and they are the kind of dinosaurs who can't read the music of the room. The Independent/Irish Times/RTE have been running a vociferous campaign against SF for over a decade now and they keep on growing despite their best efforts. I think the majority of people under 50 want real reform down south too.

The north will be the real battleground and the conversation needs to start.

[Snapchap]

SF produce their paper and challenge the rest to follow suit.

Utter nonsense. And what would the rest do if SF did what you suggest? They would attack SF's plan and universally deride them as being trying to be divisive and provocative for even talking about United Ireland. Oh and misrepresent their plan as some sort of a demand for an immediate border poll.

I never said ignore 50%+1, I was making the point us folks "down here" have to vote too.

I didn't claim you said to ignore 50%+1. I said there are others here who seem to be advocating that, and yet you don't regard their utterly anti-GFA position as "extremist".

Mind you I'd be happier with 55 or 60%.

I'd like to see a poll WON by at least that, but to suggest that a poll for unity of 50.1% should be honoured would be anti-democratic, ant-GFA, and an endosement of a unionist veto - any anyone who know anything about the six counties should know that unionist vetoes are never, ever a good idea.

As I said before the duty of the Government Parties in the "South" is to govern the State.
The Supreme Court decided many years ago (McGimpsey case) that the Government was under no obligation to work fir a UI under the old Articles 2 and 3 of Bunreacht na hÉireann.
Those articles are now (rightly) watered down so there's no imperative.

All governments have contingency plans for possible future major events. The Irish Government are no different. Just bacause you believe there is no legal imperative to include something ti such a plan doesn't mean it should not be included on the grounds of responsible governance. The Irish Government drew up contingency plan in the event of Britain voting for Brexit. To suggest that they should not have some sort of a plan in place for what is an inevitable border poll, is just downright stupid. The government only a few years ago drew up an 'Ireland 2040' strategy to plan for the next few decades. To draw up such a plan and ignore, as it did, the potential for a border poll, is an total abdication of responsibility.

[GiveItToTheShooters]

Said it before and will say it again.
Any Irish person that votes against unity is an embarrassment to their country and an embarrassment as a person.

I think it's fair tos ay that a huge majority down south are in favour of a UI but fully realise that a lot of hard bargaining is needed before we can entertain any hopes of coming up with an arrangements,  federal states or otherwise, that would have any chance of success.
Putting a UI together is one thing but coming up with a solution that works is going to be far harder- if unity ever comes to pass.

No "hard bargaining" needs to be done.
We're not asking you for a favour so stop letting on that northerners need to grovel to the southerners as if you're gonna bail us out or something. The irony in that too though eh.
If and when it comes down to putting an X in the box, if any Irish person votes against unity they are an embarrassment.

To whom? I can't see many southerners  who see the essence of Irishness being an aspiration for unity with no strings whatever attached. They would like to be allowed the right to have some say in their own future.

To their country and to themselves, as I already said in my last post.
The fact you go on to say that they may need persuaded says it all, it reinforces my point.
"I'll only vote for a UI if it doesn't cost me any money". Plastic paddies. They'd be the biggest waste of spaces of the lot.

G'man, you're in flying form- musta been on the  Lurgan champagne last night!
I'm afraid that there's a chance that you might actually be serious.
I will decide if something embarrasses me or not.
Dunno how you think people down south won't vote for UI if it's going to cost them money- all available evidence points the other way.
Back in the 90s, when the GFA negotiations were at a critical stage, the south was asked to amend its constitution to remove articles that were offensive to Unionists in general. Both articles were rescinded by massive majorities. By and large, people down here are very much aware of what is happening in the North and will do whatever can be done to bring about reconciliation between the warring factions in the god-forsaken corner of the island.
Of course, a UI will cost us money and a lot more besides but it's not up to us to make the first move.
Seems to me that all SF is doing is hyping up sectarian tensions for reasons I don't understand.
Has Mary Lou and co. come up with what should be done in the event of a UI vote being in their favour in NI? Any blueprint for the shape a UI should take?
You show me SF's proposal for their vision of a UI and I will rest my case.
Any attempt to form a sectarian state will lead to more violence and destruction and will knock the arse out of any chances of making any form of UI work. That's delusion on a grand scale.
I'd have no problems sharing Ireland with the vast majority from both sides of the community up north. But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours.

Of course I'm serious.
You can decide whatever you want, but you'll still be an embarrassment and waste of space if you vote to keep British rule in Ireland.
All available evidence points the other way but you go on to say it will cost you money and more? Make your mind up.
You are not in a position to be laying down the conditions or the requirements, nor will you be "importing" us, get off your high partitionist horse. It's funny you think that. Maybe you shouldn't have sold the north up the river back in the day.
There is no attempt to form a sectarian statelet, in fact that is what we're trying to move away from, which is what SF have been saying all along. But it's not about SF.

I never said implied or otherwise indicated that I want to keep British rule in Ireland- if you don't agree please point  out to me where and when I said do.
What available evidence have you got that a UI won't cost us money? At the moment you are costing the British taxpayer the not inconsiderable sum of £15bn annually to keep your "failed statelet" ticking over.
Who is going to pick up your tabs when the British finally get this particular monkey off their backs. I never said we would be "importing" you or anything like it. You have an elevated sense of your own importance I'm afraid.
If you want a United Ireland, you'd better be prepared to muck in like everyone else and work to make it happen. also would like to see a unified Ireland, where all shades of political and religious beliefs are accommodated and no one gets preferential treatment.
Now, I might as well be trying to play handball against a haystack rather than attempting to have a logical exchange with you. You're entitled to your own political beliefs but so am I and I don't share yours. C'est la vie, I guess.
However, I have one question you can answer without compromise of any sort. Have SF given any thought to what the consequences may be if their call for a UI is successful? Have they a stated policy on what should happen next? Can you tell me where and when Mary Lou outlined their position on the matter or if it is a case of making it up as you go along, hoping everything will work out on the day?
I can't take your call for a UI seriously if you can't be arsed to consider what the consequences might be if your wish is granted.
BTW, you have never even referred to the possibility that over a million Unionists might not agree with you?

Your attempt to ask a tirade of random questions is a poor attempt to cover your tracks here.
First of all, let's be clear that I didn't say you want to keep British rule in Ireland, but you would be a waste of space and an embarrassment to the country if you did vote for that.
And judging by your plastic paddy, depending-on x y z viewpoints you're putting across, I wouldn't be surprised if you did.
You literally did say you would be importing us, I have bolded that to prove it. Deary me, you're losing the run of yourself.
Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn't be further from the truth. It's about 1/5 of that.
You disagree with my political view, so you don't want a United ireland then I take it.

Ah, Jaysus, would you got back and read again the bit you have bolded? 
If I was a preacher man, I'd use the proverb, "there's none so blind as those who will not see," as the text for my homily when preaching to the Shinners anytime.
What I actually wrote was: But we have enough problems of our own without importing yours. In other words, you will be made welcome if you left your sectarian baggage behind you.
I don't see how you could take any other meaning out of this.
As for my tirade of random questions, I'll simplify things for you. At a conservative estimate, the British economy pays 15 bn annually to keep Northern Ireland viable and I gave a reputable reference to back my assertion.

"Also, the 15bn sum you came up with couldn't be further from the truth. It's about 1/5 of that." Where did you get that figure from? I defy you to up with a credible reference to support your claim and, no, the Anderstown News won't be accepted.
You still haven't told me, at the third time of asking, where Sinn Fein's propose doing in the event of a UI referendum being carried. I have now put that question to you in 3 different ways in the hope that you will understand at least one of them.
I don't expect an honest answer now, to be honest.

I know what you wrote. You're letting on that we're "problematic" and we somehow have to grovel for yous to take us on
And for that reason, I have no interest in trying to debate the matter with you as if I have to prove myself to the south on behalf of the north. If you want to know what SF are up to or what they propose then there are plenty of ways to find out.
I made a statement at the top on what I think of those who vote against unity, which I very much stick by. If you want to be one of them with your west Brit conditions then be my guest.

It just so happens that I have great respect for Wolfe Tone and for the ideals of the movement he directed, The United Irishmen.
The stated aim of Tone and his followers was to secure the "equal representation of all the people" in a "national government."
In other words, Tone and the United Irishmen strove to establish a state where all shades of opinion would be tolerated and accommodated. In my concept of a UI,  ex-Provos and ex-UVF men would find a place if they undertook to work for the common good and swore to leave their past where it belongs-- in the past.
No rocket science needed to understand that, I hope. If someone chooses to be a West Brit, then that's his decision to make.
If there are plenty of ways for me to find out what the Shinners propose doing if a UI referendum is passed, then why don't you point out a few of them. I know I'd find a needle in a haystack before I'd find evidence of Shinners policy in the event of a UI referendum being carried.
Finally, and I mean finally this time where did the figure of £5 bn annually in subvention assistance come from? I say the figure is at least 3 times greater and I backed up my claims by providing a reputable link- I'm still waiting on a response to this.
Incidentally, I could have provided a lot more. Google for "British annual subvention to Northern Ireland" and you'll find out what I mean.

I agree with your little story, unionists should be made welcome a UI, but I made reference to those who consider themselves Irish voting against a UI.
Ask a SF representative or do a bit of research, its there to be seen. It's not up to me to sell a UI to the conditional nationalists, I've already made clear what I would think of them if they voted against a UI.
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn. There is evidence for this if you care to look. The brits are very good at telling what the gross figure is, but the gross figure isn't what the north gets.

Aw bollix, will you cut it out? 
Yes but the NET subsidy is a fraction of what the gross subsidy is, approx 5bn.
I don't know if you plucked this from your arse or you ear but, either way, it makes no sense at all.
You are pressing for the unity referendum to be held, not me.
FFs, I don't see the need to look for evidence of anything I know does not exist.
Lookit it, there's little point in continuing this discussion when you obviously can't tell your arse from your elbow.
Over and out...

It makes perfect sense.
If you're not intelligent enough to know the difference between net and gross then yea, don't continue the discussion and waste my time any further
Can you point out to me where i said I was pressing for a referendum? THAT is what does not exist

<yawn>
Would you please go away...

Aye. Typical free state mindset for all to see.
To hell with the north eh

Where did I say that???
No.To hell with you.

You value (what you think will be) an extra few euro in your pocket over the unification of Ireland. Have some shame.

[sid waddell]

I'd be prepared to accept a united Ireland if it meant 32 quid less in my pocket every week

But I'd draw the line at 33 quid less

[Lar Naparka]

Any people look to have a United Ireland poll that will offer them some new Ireland?

May lock this thread and come back in 50 years and see if there anything doing cause it not happening anytime soon.

People are not asking for a poll to happen tomorrow. They are looking for the planning for a poll to start today. You can rest assured though, with the demographic and political trends going the way they are, there will be a poll before 50 years are up.

On the planning, you will need all communities represented and engaged for the planning. If it's a nationalist plan, it will never be accepted. Or if it's one sided it only representing that one side regardless of their intentions.

There is no chance you can even start the planning in current political climate and is that going to change in a generation even?

Of course you can start the planning. Those who always say we can't talk about a border poll because there is no plan are almost always the first to shoot down any talk of planning. Funny that.

If you're waiting on unionism to engage in discussion about reunification, then you'll wait from now until the end of time. What CAN be done now, is to have any and all stakeholders who are willing to discuss it, draw up the plan and present it to unionism in the hope some will consider it. Most wont and that's fair enough. They are unionists. It's the middle ground who will decide a future poll and they will only be won over by a plan that they feel is inclusive of unionism.

The bottom line is that demographics alone demonstrate that a border poll will happen in the relatively near future. Do you suggest going into it without a plan? I wouldn't.

I agree with 100% you. But SF is the only party campaigning for a referendum and, therefore
is the only party that needs to present their roadmap.

And every other party is a disgrace for not doing so!

But why do you say that?
It's daft to think other parties haven't discussed the possibility of a border poll and haven't  a position prepared if the referendum is passed. BUt as long as there's no possibility of a poll, at present, would should any sane person choose to debate something they feel isn't going to happen?

[Snapchap]

IT seems to me that they are clearly calling for a referendum asap.

They have repeatedly called for one to happen in 5 years. It was part of their manifesto at the last election. All their utterances since have been calls for planning to begin.

I can't recall them inviting any other party to enter into discussions with them- on anything really. I don't expect any other party to produce a roadmap to anywhere if they have no interest in a referendum.

They've been consistently calling for an All-Ireland forum to be put in place. There's no point in them talking to themselves. And as I keep saying, it doesn't matter if FFG have "no interest" in a referendum or not. A referendum is still going to happen despite them. So to refuse to pan ahead for it is shockingly irresponsible. The had a contingency plan in place for Britain leaving the EU, but steadfastly refuse to put on in place for the 6 counties leaving the UK. A dereliction of duty, given the absolute inevitability of a poll.

THe jibes that any Irish person is a West Brit if they won't vote for UI is ludicrous, stuff ypu'd get on a school playground.
It's like asking people to buy a pig in a poke. I mean who' commit himself to anything if he doesn't know what he is voting for?

And yet you defend those who refuse to engage in a discussion about what they might be voting for. Besides, I could get into a rant about why many in the north feel disgusted about anyone in the south even having to think about whether they want the reunification and independence of their own country; particularly against the backdrop of how many in the south treated the norh post-partition, and the feeling that there was a dishonorable wrong there that ought to be righted, but I'll leave that to another day.

[Itchy]

I cannot believe that there are so called Irish people on a GAA forum who are against Irish Unity. Hang your heads in shame. I get that there are loads of issues to sort out, no one is claiming it will be a straightforward process. But to actively be against unity is frankly disgusting.

Lets win them over rather than berate them.

They don't want to be won over but I think this board is very backward. Most of the Free Staters here seem to be died in the wool FFG supporters. FF are dust, Micheal Martin has finished them while FG are never going to be much more than a 25% first preference party, they are the Irish Tories and are toxic to anyone with a bit of humanity and sense of fairness. So this board is not really representative. Young people in the 26 have been failed by FFG policies which is why this demograph will not countenance voting for them. The momentum is building for a United Ireland and the desperate voices of opposition will not be enough to stop it.

We don't need to convince them, it's going to happen whether they like it or not. SF will be in power soon south of the border and they will be in a position to make this happen probably sometime in the next 10 years.

75% of "freestaters" Have voted on this poll for unification. And please, I was born in Cavan and live in the west of the country now. I do not like to be referred to as a "freestater".

[Angelo]

There's a lot of political entrenchment to the border poll down south.

I'd put the following categories

Strongly in favour: SF
Moderately in favour: SDLP, People Before Profit
On the fence: Greens, Social Democrats, Alliance
Strongly Opposed: FF, FG, Labour, DUP, UUP, TUV

I think the demographics will have a big issue. The north has a growing Catholic/Nationalist population but there's also the disillusionment of the younger generation - particularly down south with how rapid SF's growth was, a protest vote for change - something other than the FFG policies that has seen a housing crisis and dysfunctional health service. The FFG core vote will continue to fall and SF will be in government in the 26 after the next election. I'd be fairly expectant of that, when they do get in power they will then advance the conversation about the border poll.

I do see it happening in the next decade at some point and I do think that those who shout the loudest against it happening on both sides of the border are part of a dinosaur breed who are dying out.

Let's look at the political landscape of politics both sides of the border in the past decade or 15 years.

In the 2007 FS general election - FFGLAB held 148 seats of 166 (89%)
In the 2020 FS general election - FFG held 78 of 160 seats (49%)

In the 2007 Assembly Elections - DUP/UUP/TUV/PUP won 55/108 seats (51%)
In the 2017 Assembly elections - DUP/UUP/TUV/PUP won 39/90 seats (43%)

Now the Assembly elections are still pretty much a green/orange divide, the shift more represents the changing of demographics with relation to the Catholic/Protestant population.

Down south is different, it's a result of the u50 generation being foisted with the consequences of incompetence and normalising corrupt political practices from FFG governments and the people are voting for change.

Here is the exit poll from the last general election down south, FFG are utterly reliant on the vote of the over 65s

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/exit-poll-by-numbers-who-voted-what-way-and-where-1.4166978

[Angelo]

I cannot believe that there are so called Irish people on a GAA forum who are against Irish Unity. Hang your heads in shame. I get that there are loads of issues to sort out, no one is claiming it will be a straightforward process. But to actively be against unity is frankly disgusting.

Lets win them over rather than berate them.

They don't want to be won over but I think this board is very backward. Most of the Free Staters here seem to be died in the wool FFG supporters. FF are dust, Micheal Martin has finished them while FG are never going to be much more than a 25% first preference party, they are the Irish Tories and are toxic to anyone with a bit of humanity and sense of fairness. So this board is not really representative. Young people in the 26 have been failed by FFG policies which is why this demograph will not countenance voting for them. The momentum is building for a United Ireland and the desperate voices of opposition will not be enough to stop it.

We don't need to convince them, it's going to happen whether they like it or not. SF will be in power soon south of the border and they will be in a position to make this happen probably sometime in the next 10 years.

75% of "freestaters" Have voted on this poll for unification. And please, I was born in Cavan and live in the west of the country now. I do not like to be referred to as a "freestater".

Yes but 25% haven't.

The Free State is what I refer to it as, the island is partitioned into two states. If you are a republican then I'm sure you resent the free state as much as I do and what to bring about the cessation of two failed states on this island to one which is a more fairer and equitable society.

[five points]

The Free State is what I refer to it as, the island is partitioned into two states. If you are a republican then I'm sure you resent the free state as much as I do and what to bring about the cessation of two failed states on this island to one which is a more fairer and equitable society.

Are you sure you can make a silk purse from a sow's ear? Or more exactly two sows' ears?

[sid waddell]

Angelo has consistently asked: what's in it for people under 40 to get a Covid vaccine?

Given that stance, it seems fair to ask of him: what's in it for the people who he so dismissively refers to as "free staters" to vote for Ireland to take in the North?

Why would we? Why should we?

I'm not of that "I'm alright Jack" view on a united Ireland myself, but neither am I an "I'm alright Jack" merchant as regards the Covid vaccine, whereas Angelo is

There's a deep hypocrisy there on Angelo's part

He dismisses societal solidarity as regards the Covid vaccine, yet demands that people in the Republic show solidarity with Northern nationalists in their desire for a united Ireland

That's hypocrisy

[sid waddell]

I cannot believe that there are so called Irish people on a GAA forum who are against Irish Unity. Hang your heads in shame. I get that there are loads of issues to sort out, no one is claiming it will be a straightforward process. But to actively be against unity is frankly disgusting.

Lets win them over rather than berate them.

They don't want to be won over but I think this board is very backward. Most of the Free Staters here seem to be died in the wool FFG supporters. FF are dust, Micheal Martin has finished them while FG are never going to be much more than a 25% first preference party, they are the Irish Tories and are toxic to anyone with a bit of humanity and sense of fairness. So this board is not really representative. Young people in the 26 have been failed by FFG policies which is why this demograph will not countenance voting for them. The momentum is building for a United Ireland and the desperate voices of opposition will not be enough to stop it.

We don't need to convince them, it's going to happen whether they like it or not. SF will be in power soon south of the border and they will be in a position to make this happen probably sometime in the next 10 years.

75% of "freestaters" Have voted on this poll for unification. And please, I was born in Cavan and live in the west of the country now. I do not like to be referred to as a "freestater".

Yes but 25% haven't.

The Free State is what I refer to it as, the island is partitioned into two states. If you are a republican then I'm sure you resent the free state as much as I do and what to bring about the cessation of two failed states on this island to one which is a more fairer and equitable society.

Far from being a failed state, the Republic of Ireland is one of the most successful states in the world and one of the best in the world to live in

[sid waddell]

The UN ranks Ireland second in the world for quality of life

Some "failed state", eh 

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-un-human-development-index-2019-5303638-Dec2020/#:~:text=Switzerland%2C%20Hong%20Kong%2C%20Iceland%2C,the%20highest%20in%20the%20world.